If Canada's health system is superior

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

The way the story is coming out now, makes you wonder. Bump your head in Canada, you might be !@#$ed. Two hospitals there didn't know what to do??? It's not like she couldn't afford treatment. Damn shame.

[The Dean]

The way the story is coming out now, makes you wonder. Bump your head in Canada, you might be !@#$ed. Two hospitals there didn't know what to do??? It's not like she couldn't afford treatment. Damn shame.

 

 

She REFUSED treatment, for many hours. That's what killed her.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

She REFUSED treatment, for many hours. That's what killed her.

 

A head injury patient refused treatment at TWO hospitals??? I'm sure there is more to this story.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

"Our system isn't set up for traumas and doesn't match what's available in other Canadian cities, let alone in the States," Tarek Razek, director of trauma services for the McGill University Health Centre in Montreal, which represents six of the city’s hospitals, told the Associated Press.

 

This isn't about Canada. I'm sure first responders did their best. Still a shame. People die all the time.

 

A few years back, a friend of mine, a 50 year old college professor, had a massive heart attack on the basketball court at the college where we had a noon time pick up game. Amazingly, the college had just gotten new equipment to shock someone back to life in an emergency, and just as amazingly, one of the staff had just completed training on how to use it. And he was there. Jim lives today, with no apparent brain damage (at least no worse). We later heard, less than one percent of people that had what he had even live. That's not just good care, that's excellent luck.

[The Dean]

"Our system isn't set up for traumas and doesn't match what's available in other Canadian cities, let alone in the States," Tarek Razek, director of trauma services for the McGill University Health Centre in Montreal, which represents six of the city’s hospitals, told the Associated Press.

 

This isn't about Canada. I'm sure first responders did their best. Still a shame. People die all the time.

 

A few years back, a friend of mine, a 50 year old college professor, had a massive heart attack on the basketball court at the college where we had a noon time pick up game. Amazingly, the college had just gotten new equipment to shock someone back to life in an emergency, and just as amazingly, one of the staff had just completed training on how to use it. And he was there. Jim lives today, with no apparent brain damage (at least no worse). We later heard, less than one percent of people that had what he had even live. That's not just good care, that's excellent luck.

 

 

Well, at first she was taken to a local clinic, not a hospital:

Right to Refuse Care

"They just saw her on the sled for a split second, nothing more," said Coderre, who explained that Richardson was brought to a small clinic at the mountain, rarely staffed by a physician, where a member of the ski patrol and her instructor, a female university student, talked to her.

 

"The protocol in these situations is that the person is told that she would be wise to seek medical attention but she always has the right to refuse," said Coderre. "The only time a person can be overruled is if she is thought to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol or if she is showing visible signs of head trauma and seems to be intellectually incapacitated in some way."

 

Skiers are asked to sign a document if they refuse medical treatment. "They'd never let her go without her signing it," said Coderre of Richardson.

 

Richardson left the clinic still accompanied by her ski instructor and returned to her suite at the nearby luxury hotel where she was staying. Once there, her condition began to deteriorate. "She came back to the hotel [after the accident] and the instructor was right with her and took her to the room,"

 

http://www.people.com/people/package/artic...0267163,00.html

 

 

AND, she refused treatment after the paramedics came to her hotel, in response to the first 911 call.

 

That's all I'm saying. Before a hospital got to see her, four hours, or so, had passed.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

Well, at first she was taken to a local clinic, not a hospital:

 

 

http://www.people.com/people/package/artic...0267163,00.html

 

 

AND, she refused treatment after the paramedics came to her hotel, in response to the first 911 call.

 

That's all I'm saying. Before a hospital got to see her, four hours, or so, had passed.

 

So the clinic and paramedics are exonerated of making any miscalculations about the situation at hand? Sounds good to me. I won't pretend I know.

 

Here's my take. Could she have died if this were Aspen or Vail? Very possibly. Very possibly not. Could mistakes have been part of the mix, here (USA) or there? Don't know. Why the delays? I have no idea. I expect the answers will come out. Doesn't sound like anybody is trying to hide anything. If the whole point of the thread is about which country has the better health care, one incident doesn't answer that.

[The Dean]

So the clinic and paramedics are exonerated of making any miscalculations about the situation at hand? Sounds good to me. I won't pretend I know.

 

Here's my take. Could she have died if this were Aspen or Vail? Very possibly. Very possibly not. Could mistakes have been part of the mix, here (USA) or there? Don't know. Why the delays? I have no idea. I expect the answers will come out. Doesn't sound like anybody is trying to hide anything. If the whole point of the thread is about which country has the better health care, one incident doesn't answer that.

 

 

I think if she would have had the skiing accident in NYC, or Toronto, her chances would have been much better. Had it happened in some two-bit ski town, in the USA, would she have received better care?

 

I'm guessing if it were Vail or Aspen, her chances might have been improved, simply due their high profile, is probably better than a two-bit ski town.

 

But, this hardly seems like a situation to use to judge either nation's health care.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

I think if she would have had the skiing accident in NYC, or Toronto, her chances would have been much better. Had it happened in some two-bit ski town, in the USA, would she have received better care?

 

I'm guessing if it were Vail or Aspen, her chances might have been improved, simply due their high profile, is probably better than a two-bit ski town.

 

But, this hardly seems like a situation to use to judge either nation's health care.

 

 

OK Fine

[ExiledInIllinois]

Most use the argument for health care in the country like the argument the unions use. This argument is the number one reason why both (unions and health care) have gone to hell in a hand basket. What they both do is sacrifice the wellness of the group for the sake of the individual. Now I am not saying shifting back to the days of old are the answer... Where the exact opposite was the case. There has to be a happy medium.

[ExiledInIllinois]

This whole NR skiing thing is bunk. She refused treatment. (betcha that story changes if the scum bag lawyers get innvolved) Maybe we should have socialized medicine and mandatory treatment... Come on... It makes no sense. May she RIP... But like the neuro said that another poster quoted in her memorial thread: "It was talk and die syndrome."

 

You can lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink.

[blzrul]

I think if she would have had the skiing accident in NYC, or Toronto, her chances would have been much better. Had it happened in some two-bit ski town, in the USA, would she have received better care?

 

I'm guessing if it were Vail or Aspen, her chances might have been improved, simply due their high profile, is probably better than a two-bit ski town.

 

But, this hardly seems like a situation to use to judge either nation's health care.

I was skiing with a physician years ago in Vermont. A woman in front of us wiped out and you could hear the sound as her head hit the ground. Her husband was some ways ahead of her and didn't realize she'd fallen. As we stopped to check on her the physician said "please don't say I am a doctor - because I don't specialize in head injuries and I am afraid of getting sued". At the time I was an EMT so I was able to render aid but...she declined help too in spite of my recommendation that we get the ski patrol. I am certain to this day she at least had a concussion, but she was able to ski down on her own power with her husband so there wasn't much I could do about it other than mention it to the ski patrol when I got to the bottom and have them try to persuade the woman to be treated.

 

Sad commentary that an internist witnessed the incident and didn't dare help... although I knew that emergency medicine was not this person's forte and I was better equipped to provide the assist.

 

It's easy to cast blame in hindsight ... fact is head injuries are not often visible and if the patient refuses aid there is not much you can do unless he/she is OBVIOUSLY injured. Richardson could have fallen on the ice on the sidewalk outside the best head injury clinic in the world, and if she waived treatment, she still would have died. This has nothing to do with the country ... except maybe in the US where everyone sues for everything, medics might have been more forceful about seeing her out of the fear of being sued.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

I was skiing with a physician years ago in Vermont. A woman in front of us wiped out and you could hear the sound as her head hit the ground. Her husband was some ways ahead of her and didn't realize she'd fallen. As we stopped to check on her the physician said "please don't say I am a doctor - because I don't specialize in head injuries and I am afraid of getting sued". At the time I was an EMT so I was able to render aid but...she declined help too in spite of my recommendation that we get the ski patrol. I am certain to this day she at least had a concussion, but she was able to ski down on her own power with her husband so there wasn't much I could do about it other than mention it to the ski patrol when I got to the bottom and have them try to persuade the woman to be treated.

 

Sad commentary that an internist witnessed the incident and didn't dare help... although I knew that emergency medicine was not this person's forte and I was better equipped to provide the assist.

 

It's easy to cast blame in hindsight ... fact is head injuries are not often visible and if the patient refuses aid there is not much you can do unless he/she is OBVIOUSLY injured. Richardson could have fallen on the ice on the sidewalk outside the best head injury clinic in the world, and if she waived treatment, she still would have died. This has nothing to do with the country ... except maybe in the US where everyone sues for everything, medics might have been more forceful about seeing her out of the fear of being sued.

 

Saw this cowboy get destroyed by this bull at a rodeo once. But he popped right up, and brushed himself off. Told everybody he was fine. He went back to his hotel room and slept for days. Nobody could find him. Obviously, some kind of concussion, and could have been dangerous. What can you do?

[blzrul]

Saw this cowboy get destroyed by this bull at a rodeo once. But he popped right up, and brushed himself off. Told everybody he was fine. He went back to his hotel room and slept for days. Nobody could find him. Obviously, some kind of concussion, and could have been dangerous. What can you do?

You can't do anything. If the person can answer the appropriate questions and pass the litmus tests (eyes react properly to light, follow a moving object etc) then you can't just haul them off to the hospital against their wishes. And if a headache comes on, well you hit your head, you'd kind of expect that.

 

This was a terrible freak accident.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You can't do anything. If the person can answer the appropriate questions and pass the litmus tests (eyes react properly to light, follow a moving object etc) then you can't just haul them off to the hospital against their wishes. And if a headache comes on, well you hit your head, you'd kind of expect that.

 

This was a terrible freak accident.

 

 

Bingo!

 

Laugable how the anti-socialized med fans are making this an argument. Actually, she was in the best country possible if she was common folk. If it was a common person, probably most would have them taken to the hospital right then and there. Afterall, they wouldn't be worried about the bill... Right? IMO, the fact that she was a rich celeb was the reason she didn't want to hang with the hoi polloi getting the same medical treatment. Probably there are other reasons too... I would guess her illogical reaction had to revolve around her being a celeb... And of course couple that with being embarrassed... Sad...

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

Bingo!

 

Laugable how the anti-socialized med fans are making this an argument. Actually, she was in the best country possible if she was common folk. If it was a common person, probably most would have them taken to the hospital right then and there. Afterall, they wouldn't be worried about the bill... Right? IMO, the fact that she was a rich celeb was the reason she didn't want to hang with the hoi polloi getting the same medical treatment. Probably there are other reasons too... I would guess her illogical reaction had to revolve around her being a celeb... And of course couple that with being embarrassed... Sad...

 

I know exactly what you mean. I went to this emergency room once that just wouldn't do, full of Mexicans and the like. I know my daughter's broken arm hurt a lot, but we drove around till we found a better one.

[OCinBuffalo]

I actually agree with all of that. I'm not sure I wold choose Canada's system, as the right change, but I do know that the USA is the only industrialized nation with no universal health care insurance/program. Isn't is interesting that we can't figure out how to give basic health care to our citizens, when every other industrialized country can.?

 

Health care in this country needs a major overhaul, IMO...and I don't just mean health care insurance. And, I reject the idea that universal care (at some level) is too expensive. The cost of the current system (treating uninsured citizens at emergency rooms, and providing virtually nothing in the way of preventative care) can't be the most cost effective option.

You really want to fix it? I mean really fix it, once and for all, make it cheap and get it done relatively quickly?

Here's what we do in order, and if we got the ideology people out of the way this whole thing could be accomplished in a year:

 

1. Shut down CMS, Medicare, Medicaid, all of it. Put all funds that was targeted towards those programs in a temporary fund. State/Fed cannot tax health care in any form. The state/fed cannot mandate coverage/treatment, period.

2. We need one single law that says that the only entity that can supply health insurance is a county government. That means the state can't provide it, the Feds can't, no corporate insurance companies. DONE. Every citizen must sign up for some sort of policy(like car insurance) on their 18th birthday. Children receive mandatory baseline coverage, paid for by their parent's premiums. Parents can buy additional coverage if they choose. Elderly works the same = baseline maintenance that can be supplemented based on choice and $$$.

3. Allow former Medicare/Medicaid/Insurance employees to become similar to City managers and consult/advise each county for $$$. You create a competitive advice market and the best win. Clearly some counties will need more help than others, permanent positions vs. consultants, etc. The dead weight employees from those over-bloated programs/companies can seek life elsewhere.

4. With the funds from #1, you create a county commission whose members serve 2 years, elected, and paid. They vote to appoint a 5-7 member Physician/RN advisory group who are appointed for a term of 5 years and are paid by the hour. The docs gets to make all the medical decisions on what to treat/insure/what not to. Docs are like the Supreme Court. However, it takes a majority vote from both groups to create things like insurance policies, co-pay amounts etc.

5. Each county can organize its insurance policies however they choose. If you don't like how your county does it, move, or get rid of the elected people.

6. With the rest of the funds from #1, you set up a government trust. Counties pay a small arbitrary amount(5%) of their premiums into this trust as their own insurance policy against major medical hitting them too hard in any given year. The State and Fed can choose to audit the health of any county and raise this rate up to 10% for the year, or until clear steps are taken to improve quality of care.

7. No matter where you get hurt, your county pays and covers you based on your policy. Feds act as a clearinghouse between counties/states/countries. If your county has crap insurance, and your bills exceed your coverage someplace else, your county still has to pay at least 50% of the difference, Fed/State are the final arbiters of all disputes.

8. You can't go to the doc outside your county, without paying for 50% of the fee, unless it's an emergency, or unless the Doc advisory group refers you.

9. Counties can form purchasing alliances however they want with no hindrance from state/fed. Drugs, pricing, generic or not, is all determined by the commission. Again, you don't like it, get rid of them.

10. All of the rest of HHS becomes a research/grant organization only. Counties can pay for studies themselves, or collectively pay for research.

11. If you have a serious medical condition and you want to move, your new county must take you, but they can charge you up to 50% of the premium you had as a co-pay. All chronic condition folks can apply to the HHS grant people for long-term assistance.

 

This works because it's local people making local decisions about how they want their health care to be. More commission people, making smaller decisions, is always better than a smaller group making massive decisions. Counties that think they need to attract people can improve their health coverage. Inner cities will have to live with whatever they do to themselves. Rich suburbs will be able to pay, yeah, poor, no, but don't forget that if your doc board refers you, you go wherever you need to and the county pays, based 100% on medical decisions

 

It's a basic framework to be sure, and there's lots of details I left out, but this would be infinitely better than everyone's current health care system AND it would cut the cost of all of this at least 50% almost immediately. That's basically cutting the Federal Budget in half.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

How do you explain it?

 

Natasha Richardson refused medical treatment just after her fall.

 

You can't blame the system IF the person says "don't treat me".

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

I have used the Canadian Emergency system in Parry Sound, so has my Dad. It was fast, efficient and effective and we in a rural area. I have to say it was a lot quicker to respond than a lot of US Ambulance folks and we were 30 miles of back roads from the Emergency room.

 

The real question is, can we as American taxpayers afford to support a bloated private sector medical system that has three times the administrative costs as even public sector medicare/medicaid. Our ancillary costs of killing the system. Regardless of the how the balance needed between public provided and privately sponsored health care, the current system is broken... it only serves the rich and poor effectively and bankrupts the folks in the middle, who otherwise go without and is killing our governments tax system.

 

I say start with capping administrative costs at 20% for both public or private providers and then see where it goes. Also, health insurance companies cannot be the most profitable business in this country. All they are are middle men, like hedge funds and they have gotten too big for the britches and we cannot afford them.... They are overleveraging us and hell we don't even understand how they work!

[meazza]

How do you explain it?

 

Natasha Richardson refused medical treatment just after her fall.

 

You can't blame the system IF the person says "don't treat me".

 

Mont Tremblant is a high end resort. Even if it is based in Canada, I highly doubt the medical care is the same that you would get in any normal citry.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Mont Tremblant is a high end resort. Even if it is based in Canada, I highly doubt the medical care is the same that you would get in any normal citry.

I heard that Mont Tremblant facilities couldn't have diagnosed her

 

 

When Natasha Richardson collapsed, the ski resort called an ambulance that took her to the local hospital. That local hospital knew after examining her that she needed care that they didn't have. That's not unusual for small hospitals.

 

The problem is there isn't a medical helicopter system anywhere in the entire province of Quebec, so Richardson had to be driven by ambulance to Montreal, a 2 1/2 hour drive. Now people are asking if a medical helicopter system could have saved her.