Dibs Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 In yards, Cutler was 3rd and Edwards 23rd.Completions, Cutler was 3rd and Edwards 22nd. Attempts, Cutler 2nd, Edwards 25th. TDs, Cutler 7th, Edwards 27th. 20+ yd plays, Cutler 2nd, Edwards 18th. Games started, Cutler 16, Edwards 14. Attempting more throws obviously will increase certain numbers....i.e. INTs, Cutler 31st, Edwards 11th In terms of per pass play..... In yards/attempt, Cutler 10th and Edwards 11th Percent completions, Cutler 14th and Edwards 6th TD percentage, Cutler 13th and Edwards 27th INT percentage, Cutler 26th, Edwards 19th Is Cutler better than TE? He's had an extra year in the league and at this point certainly does look better. All this talk of trading for him is IMO ridiculous. If the Bills get Cutler we would likely have to give up a decent amount of resources.....and sign him onto a huge contract. Knowing our luck, TE would then become a probowler in Denver while Cutler regresses to JPL levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Attempting more throws obviously will increase certain numbers....i.e.INTs, Cutler 31st, Edwards 11th In terms of per pass play..... In yards/attempt, Cutler 10th and Edwards 11th Percent completions, Cutler 14th and Edwards 6th TD percentage, Cutler 13th and Edwards 27th INT percentage, Cutler 26th, Edwards 19th Is Cutler better than TE? He's had an extra year in the league and at this point certainly does look better. All this talk of trading for him is IMO ridiculous. If the Bills get Cutler we would likely have to give up a decent amount of resources.....and sign him onto a huge contract. Knowing our luck, TE would then become a probowler in Denver while Cutler regresses to JPL levels. Precisely. Saying they were "about the same" because their QB ratings were very similar is absurd. Anybody could've just as easily listed only the stats were Edwards was ahead of Cutler. But, that isn't quite as dramatic. At any rate, the roles that these two QBs were asked to fill for their respect teams could not be more disparate. It's night and day. Cutler was the Broncos. They had no defense and their running game was obliterated by injury. Shanahan had to rely on his QB to compete in games. Meanwhile, the Bills passing game was under wraps and pathetic to watch most of the season. Yes, Edwards again kept the turnovers down (yay!?) with all the short check down dump offs for little to no gain. Yes, there were glimmers of hope when Edwards would make a couple of heaves in the 4th quarter or in the KC game where he made some plays against an awful team. But, there were many times when Edwards just didn't make the play and didn't make the right read. There was also long droughts of uninspired and anemic play in the Bills passing game, where the Bills relied on Marshawn Lynch, the defense, and a game changing play by the special teams to steal a game. Edwards is still not a money QB -- 27th in touchdowns and touchdown percentage is not getting it done and not getting it done better than his rookie season. To be a big time QB, Edwards has to make the money throws to get to the red zone and in the red zone and not just manage the game by always taking the safest, most wide open, dump off available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 You mean they are busy with making all the deals to fix the holes and using our large cap in signing premier players ? We can only hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thats not what I said Alpha. What I said was, it is not a perfect science, you have to consider qb rating and wins and losses, and clutch performance, this is the best way in my view how to evaluate a players value to his team. I think looking at the qb rating is one of the better and more accurate gauge's to look. If you look at that the top 10, and let me say again, it is not a perfect science, it pretty much does show who the best qb's were last year and the importance that they played for their team. Btw, those four that you mentioned were 4 of the top 5 and the other in BRees had an MVP year. The other 6 of the top ten, you had Cassel, Romo and Rodgers who all had good statistical years. Schaub played for a bad team and still helped manage to help them win games. So in reality, The qb's I listed in the top 10 all helped support my argument. My comment was directed to those touting record as why Edwards is better...my point was simply that record is not a good indication... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Thats not what I said Alpha. What I said was, it is not a perfect science, you have to consider qb rating and wins and losses, and clutch performance, this is the best way in my view how to evaluate a players value to his team. I think looking at the qb rating is one of the better and more accurate gauge's to look. If you look at that the top 10, and let me say again, it is not a perfect science, it pretty much does show who the best qb's were last year and the importance that they played for their team. Btw, those four that you mentioned were 4 of the top 5 and the other in BRees had an MVP year. The other 6 of the top ten, you had Cassel, Romo and Rodgers who all had good statistical years. Schaub played for a bad team and still helped manage to help them win games. So in reality, The qb's I listed in the top 10 all helped support my argument. I like what the Bucs GM had to say when asked about resigning Michael Clayton. He said YOU can look at NUMBERS, I prefer to look at GAME FILM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Precisely. Saying they were "about the same" because their QB ratings were very similar is absurd. Anybody could've just as easily listed only the stats were Edwards was ahead of Cutler. But, that isn't quite as dramatic. At any rate, the roles that these two QBs were asked to fill for their respect teams could not be more disparate. It's night and day. Cutler was the Broncos. They had no defense and their running game was obliterated by injury. Shanahan had to rely on his QB to compete in games. Meanwhile, the Bills passing game was under wraps and pathetic to watch most of the season. Yes, Edwards again kept the turnovers down (yay!?) with all the short check down dump offs for little to no gain. Yes, there were glimmers of hope when Edwards would make a couple of heaves in the 4th quarter or in the KC game where he made some plays against an awful team. But, there were many times when Edwards just didn't make the play and didn't make the right read. There was also long droughts of uninspired and anemic play in the Bills passing game, where the Bills relied on Marshawn Lynch, the defense, and a game changing play by the special teams to steal a game. Edwards is still not a money QB -- 27th in touchdowns and touchdown percentage is not getting it done and not getting it done better than his rookie season. To be a big time QB, Edwards has to make the money throws to get to the red zone and in the red zone and not just manage the game by always taking the safest, most wide open, dump off available. A great post...but I will add, you referenced the belief of many that Edwards kept turnovers down, but in reality didnt...if you add in fumbles, he had more turnovers than TD's, so he wasnt very good at that despite wide spread belief on this board... In 12.5 games he has 15 turnovers...projected over a full season he would have had at least 19. He also only had 11 TD's, projected over a whole season he would have had 14. 14 TD's to 19+ Turnovers is not what I call protecting the ball. He averaged one turnover every 24 passing attempts. Not very good. Oh and this whole thing about Cutler threw more too was why his stats were so much better...well, just an FYI for those out there talking about that: Edwards averaged 29.92 pass attempts per game (374 passes divided by 12.5 games as he didnt play the second half one game...and I didnt count AZ game). Cutler averaged just 8 more pass attempts per game...wasnt like it was night and day, just that Cutler did way more with his attempts...like score points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Forgot to add that Edwards had 9 fumbles in 12.5 games...he lost 5 as I counted in the turnovers in above post, but he had 9 in total...projected over a full season that would be 12 fumbles. Again, not exactly what I call protecting the ball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC-Bills Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Cutler doesn't wear gloves. Trent does. Case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 A great post...but I will add, you referenced the belief of many that Edwards kept turnovers down, but in reality didnt...if you add in fumbles, he had more turnovers than TD's, so he wasnt very good at that despite wide spread belief on this board... In 12.5 games he has 15 turnovers...projected over a full season he would have had at least 19. He also only had 11 TD's, projected over a whole season he would have had 14. 14 TD's to 19+ Turnovers is not what I call protecting the ball. He averaged one turnover every 24 passing attempts. Not very good. Oh and this whole thing about Cutler threw more too was why his stats were so much better...well, just an FYI for those out there talking about that: Edwards averaged 29.92 pass attempts per game (374 passes divided by 12.5 games as he didnt play the second half one game...and I didnt count AZ game). Cutler averaged just 8 more pass attempts per game...wasnt like it was night and day, just that Cutler did way more with his attempts...like score points. Cutler did not do very much more with each passing attempt than Edwards. When you look at stats that keep the subjects on level ground despite discrepancies in passing attempts, you see they didn't wind up too far apart. My favorite stats for QBs are yards per attempt, completion percentage and TD/INT ratio. Now I planned on coming in here and ranting on why Cutler is far and away better than Edwards, using those stats as the basis for my argument...but IMO, there just isn't much of a case to be made there. If you take a look at those stats, I think you'll be surprised. I know I was. If I'm starting a brand new franchise, Cutler is my guy. But, because they don't seem to be very far apart at this point, Edwards already having been here for a couple of years means that giving up resources to make the swap happen just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 .....Oh and this whole thing about Cutler threw more too was why his stats were so much better...well, just an FYI for those out there talking about that: Edwards averaged 29.92 pass attempts per game (374 passes divided by 12.5 games as he didnt play the second half one game...and I didnt count AZ game). Cutler averaged just 8 more pass attempts per game...wasnt like it was night and day, just that Cutler did way more with his attempts...like score points. LOL....all that to say that Cutlers TD percentage was a lot higher than TEs....4.1 to 2.9 Hadn't we already covered that several times previously in this thread? BTW....why go to all the trouble of going to 2 decimal places for TE while rounding down to the nearest whole number for Cutler? For those that care, Cutler averaged 38.5 pass attempts per game.....which is actually 8.58 passes per game more than TE. And to put that into perspective.....taking a ypa of 7.3(around average for the two QBs).....that translates to an extra 1000 yards in the season. You are right though in that if you extrapolate TEs attempts out over the season he would have ended up with 479 attempts(12th)......mind you Cutler still threw by far more passes with 616(2nd). I really don't know what it is you are trying to do Alpha.......you say you see TEs potential....and you obviously are aware he has only played 2 seasons in the league.....yet you seem to take every opportunity you can to argue how bad he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizell Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 You are right though in that if you extrapolate TEs attempts out over the season he would have ended up with 479 attempts(12th)......mind you Cutler still threw by far more passes with 616(2nd). funny thing about extrapolating... that's assuming that TE wouldn't be missing multiple games with various injuries.. which, other than 1 year in his whole career of playing football since high school, hasn't happened... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 funny thing about extrapolating... that's assuming that TE wouldn't be missing multiple games with various injuries.. which, other than 1 year in his whole career of playing football since high school, hasn't happened... I agree that he has shown plenty to be concerned about in regards to his durability but that is a seperate issue to whether he has the ability to be a good QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I really don't know what it is you are trying to do Alpha.......you say you see TEs potential....and you obviously are aware he has only played 2 seasons in the league.....yet you seem to take every opportunity you can to argue how bad he is. There in lies the difference here...I like Trents potential, but I don't like the way he has played THUS far on the field. Potential is nothing other than an opinnion on what you think a player MAY be able to do in the future...so yes, he has potential, but his on the field production thus far has been sub par. This discussion has been about whether Trent is better than Cutler, as some are crazy to claim IMO. So, it looks like bashing, but the sad part all I am doing is talking about his actual performance... Cutler>Edwards currently...maybe not down the road, but right now...thats all I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I agree that he has shown plenty to be concerned about in regards to his durability but that is a seperate issue to whether he has the ability to be a good QB. A good player who can't stay healthy is a major hinderance for a team. Especially when a team is counting on that player and said player is the starting Qb. I'm not saying it's his fault but it is a factor in winning games. Marc Bulger is the first guy that comes to mind for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 There in lies the difference here...I like Trents potential, but I don't like the way he has played THUS far on the field. Potential is nothing other than an opinnion on what you think a player MAY be able to do in the future...so yes, he has potential, but his on the field production thus far has been sub par. This discussion has been about whether Trent is better than Cutler, as some are crazy to claim IMO. So, it looks like bashing, but the sad part all I am doing is talking about his actual performance... Cutler>Edwards currently...maybe not down the road, but right now...thats all I am saying. Has there actually been anybody in this thread that has stated that Cutler>Edwards? I guess there might have been but I certainly don't recall anyone actually making that argument.....just the argument that TE didn't play as bad as some are saying. I think when assessing sub-par production.....one really has to take into consideration the length of time in the league. By any reasonable measuring stick TE has played well above par to this point in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 A good player who can't stay healthy is a major hinderance for a team. Especially when a team is counting on that player and said player is the starting Qb. I'm not saying it's his fault but it is a factor in winning games. Marc Bulger is the first guy that comes to mind for me. I totally agree. I guess it comes back to a similar situation to his talent level in that time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Has there actually been anybody in this thread that has stated that Cutler>Edwards? I guess there might have been but I certainly don't recall anyone actually making that argument.....just the argument that TE didn't play as bad as some are saying. I think when assessing sub-par production.....one really has to take into consideration the length of time in the league. By any reasonable measuring stick TE has played well above par to this point in his career. I get where you are coming from, and yes, there were several claiming Edwards to be better than Cutler. Heck, in a different thread someone claimed they would take Edwards over Brees...LMAO Its all good, we agree he has potential, but we can just agree to disagree on his level of play thus far. My issue was that his play in the second half was noticeably worse than the first half of the season. Was he as bad as JP, no, not at all. But, he seemed rattled and even with all kinds of time seemed gun shy...that concerns me. I know it comes across as I dont like him, but I really do. I am just not sold on the kid yet, he hasn't done enough on the field for me to have the man crush some have. The people who are sold on him, unjustly give him all the credit for our wins, even when he plays bad, and make excuses for him and blame the coaches or other parts of the team when we lose, even when he has a terrible game. Case in point for example...in this thread even someone was trying to argue that Trent isnt the reason we lost the Cle game...well, for one, no one person is ever the reason we lose a game or win a game, but he definitely was the biggest factor. 3 INT's in his first 4 pass attempts, and he never recovered from that... So, then when I have to point out what really went down on the field, I come across as bashing him. I am just bluntly honest with what he has done on the field thus far. I am not going to sugar coat it just because he is a Bill and make him out to be better than he has. This is the NFL, he is a big boy now, and the criticism comes with it. He has shined in a few moments, which is why I like his potential and he seems like a class act too and I hope he succeeds whether its here or Denver next year. For the record, I dont want to dump him for a rookie or unproven QB...but if we can get someone like Cutler who has shown he can carry a team on his arm, then I am all for it. I just prefer production over potential as we all know potential is no guarantee...Rob Johnson had potential...JP had potential...I am just ready for production... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 http://www.denverpost.com/sportsheadlines/...8484?source=rss This is the latest on the Cutler situation. The Broncos are going to see if the smoke clears a little and Cutler will have a "face to face" with McDaniels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 I still believe that Edwards is the man here. With the weapons he now has, especially if this Scheffler signing is legit and if we can get him (like all QBs) the protection he needs. His ability to manage a game to not make mistakes will get the job done. Now don't get me wrong, Cutler is a good QB. Just not to sure that he would be that much of an upgrade. What you get in points is great, but what you may give up in our very strong division with his INTs could be very bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 http://www.denverpost.com/sportsheadlines/...8484?source=rss This is the latest on the Cutler situation. The Broncos are going to see if the smoke clears a little and Cutler will have a "face to face" with McDaniels. This is what I figured would happen...I doubt they trade him any time soon. If they do, I bet it comes near or on draft day...gives them time to weigh more options, get a feel for who is there for them if they acquire picks, and also buys time to smooth this whole thing out and just keep Cutler... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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