Thurman#1 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Great post. I had posted something similar last year. As I recall, TE's ball speed was only about 3 mph less than JP's. Also, Trent had the flu at the combine for what its worth. The whole ball speed critique is really bs when you look at the objective facts. This is right and wrong. Only ball speed doesn't tell much. You have to combine it with a lot of other things. How tight is his spiral? A tight spiral flies longer and cuts through the wind much better. Is his ball "heavy" or "light?" Can he throw it so that it sails? There are a million components to figuring how quickly and how far a guy's passes go. Ball speed doesn't begin to tell the whole story. But in the important measures, Edwards has proven little. 1) How far can he throw? Well, he's shown he can throw about 45 yards, which isn't bad, but with a speed merchant like Lee Evans, this distance basically means he has to throw before Lee get more than about 15 yards down the field. Which means he often has to decide whether to throw before Lee has passed the defender. This is a handicap. Trent hasn't showed the ability or anyway the willingness to make decisions on a long ball that early. Which is why he has completed so few of them. 2) Can he throw through the winds at the Ralph? JP proved he could. Trent simply hasn't proved anything here, just the opposite. He could still learn it and become good. But to this point, he hasn't. OP, this post just doesn't get close to the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 That his arm strength was sufficient enough. What else? Well, that's one opinion. What else? Um, how about that he hasn't proven that his arm strength was "sufficient enough." Did you notice that in Florida, Pennington's arm was sufficient, yet in the winds and cold of the northeast, it just wasn't? One pass proves nothing. We'll have to see him start connecting regularly with the deep ball and do well in bad weather before we know his arm strength is sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DERRICK O Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Trent Edwards arm strength has come into question over and over on this board so in an effort to put this to bed i'd like to show the facts... Top 5 Results: Ball Speed (Group 1) 1. Troy Smith Ohio St. 58.5 2. Jeff Rowe Nevada 57 3. Drew Stanton Michigan St. 55.7 4. Jared Zabransky Boise St. 55.2 5. Paul Thompson Oklahoma 54.8 Top 5 Results: Ball Speed (Group 2) 1. Toby Korrodi Central Missouri St. 63 2. John Beck Brigham Young 61.1 3. Kevin Kolb Houston 55.3 4. Trent Edwards Stanford 55.2 5. James Pinkey East Carolina 53.9 does anybody know what Jim Kelly's was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve In Atlanta 2008 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Steve in Atlanta has convinced me with the chart he posted. What else do you need to know? TE has a faster ball speed than Paul Thompson and James Pinkey?..who...?!? Yep, case closed and put to bed...lol Look, Drew Brees has no cannon for an arm, but year after year seems to get the ball where it needs to be for his WRs. The same can be said for Chad Pennington. But it helps to have ball speed (as mentioned) in Orchard Park. So where is TE based on what we have seen so far? Well, Trent has had some good games and some not so good games -- so the jury is still out and this thread lives on. To be honest, at times TE has looked like a younger Kelly Holcomb. Check the stats, they are about the same from when they have been in Buffalo. The only difference being experience and it does not mean that TE will become a career backup. That said, it hasn't been a slam dunk that he is the QB we have been looking for either. Steve in Atlanta (me) posted the ball speed to put this to bed in showing his arm is average compared to other qbs. you ASSUMED that I was trying to prove that he has a cannon arm and this is simply not true. He is average and if he could learn to be effective against a 3-4 "D" id be really happy. As has been already noted, Big Ben has a similar ball speed AND Mr JP is 2 MPH faster. This whole link started with people LUSTING after Cutler and claiming his arm was soo much better. We PROVED that it was 5 MPH faster which to me isnt worth crap in comparison to how much of a pu$$y that guy is. So yes, this should be put to bed now. end of conversation. TE is simply average. O.. one last thing. Wet noodle arm Pennington has carved us up in the past. Not by arm but by timing and being smart with the football... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Joe Montana: 38.7 Thanks for the meaningless stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Steve in Atlanta (me) posted the ball speed to put this to bed in showing his arm is average compared to other qbs. you ASSUMED that I was trying to prove that he has a cannon arm and this is simply not true. He is average and if he could learn to be effective against a 3-4 "D" id be really happy. As has been already noted, Big Ben has a similar ball speed AND Mr JP is 2 MPH faster. This whole link started with people LUSTING after Cutler and claiming his arm was soo much better. We PROVED that it was 5 MPH faster which to me isnt worth crap in comparison to how much of a pu$$y that guy is. So yes, this should be put to bed now. end of conversation. TE is simply average. O.. one last thing. Wet noodle arm Pennington has carved us up in the past. Not by arm but by timing and being smart with the football... TE is simply average in all aspects of quarterbacking. It's not the worst thing in the world but it's not all that great either. He could improve or decline from this point. The arm strength isn't as bad as some say but his accuracy and decision making isn't as good as others say. Compared to JP, he looks pretty good. The problem is JP was awful. If I was forced to make a prediction about TE, I would have to say he will never be more than an average Qb. The good news is you can win in this league with an average Qb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 TE is simply average in all aspects of quarterbacking. It's not the worst thing in the world but it's not all that great either. He could improve or decline from this point. The arm strength isn't as bad as some say but his accuracy and decision making isn't as good as others say. Compared to JP, he looks pretty good. The problem is JP was awful. If I was forced to make a prediction about TE, I would have to say he will never be more than an average Qb. The good news is you can win in this league with an average Qb. Steve Young says he will be a great QB. I'll take his word over yours. (Trent Dilfer is very high on him as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Steve in Atlanta (me) posted the ball speed to put this to bed in showing his arm is average compared to other qbs. you ASSUMED that I was trying to prove that he has a cannon arm and this is simply not true. He is average and if he could learn to be effective against a 3-4 "D" id be really happy. As has been already noted, Big Ben has a similar ball speed AND Mr JP is 2 MPH faster. This whole link started with people LUSTING after Cutler and claiming his arm was soo much better. We PROVED that it was 5 MPH faster which to me isnt worth crap in comparison to how much of a pu$$y that guy is. So yes, this should be put to bed now. end of conversation. TE is simply average. O.. one last thing. Wet noodle arm Pennington has carved us up in the past. Not by arm but by timing and being smart with the football... How can you say he was AVERAGE when he only beat 2 other NOBODYS? I wouldn't call that AVERAGE more like BELOW AVERAGE. People that think 2 or 3 MPH does not mean anything are CRAZY, we are talking about a football here NOT a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 How can you say he was AVERAGE when he only beat 2 other NOBODYS? I wouldn't call that AVERAGE more like BELOW AVERAGE. People that think 2 or 3 MPH does not mean anything are CRAZY, we are talking about a football here NOT a car. because people that are a lot smarter than you (or I), and have much better talent evaluation skills than any of use here... have said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Steve Young says he will be a great QB. I'll take his word over yours. (Trent Dilfer is very high on him as well) How about you watch him play and form your own opinion? I could care less about Steve Young's opinion, these talking heads get it wrong at the same rate we do. I hope he's right, I like TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizell Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 How about you watch him play and form your own opinion? I could care less about Steve Young's opinion, these talking heads get it wrong at the same rate we do. I hope he's right, I like TE. haha. why would someone do that when they can just parrot what other people say? "Bill Walsh said he's going to be great, so he's going to be!" "Steve Young said..." rinse repeat etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Just responding to your comment on Russel....Trent hasnt exactly been stellar himself..."highly accurate" passer is an over statement too...so if people are going to point to how young Trent is, then you have to extend the same courtesy to Russel who plays on a way worse team with way less talent on the offense to work with. I always hear how accurate Trent is, but he has as many INT's as he does TD's...his accuracy is helped by his tendency to check down...he is over rated for his accuracy and should actually have quite a few more INT's but he has been fortunate several times. For example, because a down low post player in the NBA like say Shaq has a high FG%, doesnt make him an accurate shooter when he has so many high percentage FG's every game down low. Same with a QB, when he makes short check down throws that even I can make, his accuracay gets inflated. I care about when he throws over the middle or an out. Trent has only 18 TD's to go with 18 INT's, that doesnt scream accurate where it counts... Not saying he wont get better, just judging his actual on field performance to this point... He's actually very accurate - he has a staggeringly high completion rate for a QB in only his second season (65.5 percent), and just from watching him, he tends to hit guys in stride. He doesn't throw many INTs (10 in 374 attempts last season), actually, and I think you're tricked by the fact that he doesn't throw many TDs either. TD throws have nothing to do with his INT frequency - that ratio is an irrelevant stat when it comes to judging accuracy. In that calculus, a TD throw is just another completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 He's actually very accurate - he has a staggeringly high completion rate for a QB in only his second season (65.5 percent), and just from watching him, he tends to hit guys in stride. He doesn't throw many INTs (10 in 374 attempts last season), actually, and I think you're tricked by the fact that he doesn't throw many TDs either. TD throws have nothing to do with his INT frequency - that ratio is an irrelevant stat when it comes to judging accuracy. In that calculus, a TD throw is just another completion. Very good point!! He throws very few interceptions per pass attempt, much less than the league average, and much much less than 1st full year qb's. Also about this checkdown, that is absurd. Has anyone seen what The Patriots do, I mean, come on!! How many passes does welker catch within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. But lets be real here, to totally squash that argument. Trent has an above average yards per attempt average. Case closed!! There is little doubt from people who are non biased that believe that Trent is a very accurate passer. The guy played well in his first full year, and I think most people who don't have any bias one way or another recognize this. Trent's second full year, providing he stays healthy will be considerably better than his first. I can't wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC-Bills Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Steve Young says he will be a great QB. I'll take his word over yours. (Trent Dilfer is very high on him as well) So if Steve and Trent tell you to go jump off a cliff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Ok, we've been over this...I did play football all the way through college, so enough with the "if you played football" garbage... I'd be interested to know on what side of the ball and what position and at what level of NCAA play. If on offense, I'd be interested in the type of sets your coaches used. Thanks. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I'd be interested to know on what side of the ball and what position and at what level of NCAA play. If on offense, I'd be interested in the type of sets your coaches used. Thanks. GO BILLS!!! Oh no! you should know better by now. Your gonna get a long answer. no disrpespect Alpha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 This is right and wrong. Only ball speed doesn't tell much. You have to combine it with a lot of other things. How tight is his spiral? A tight spiral flies longer and cuts through the wind much better. Is his ball "heavy" or "light?" Can he throw it so that it sails? There are a million components to figuring how quickly and how far a guy's passes go. Ball speed doesn't begin to tell the whole story. But in the important measures, Edwards has proven little. 1) How far can he throw? Well, he's shown he can throw about 45 yards, which isn't bad, but with a speed merchant like Lee Evans, this distance basically means he has to throw before Lee get more than about 15 yards down the field. Which means he often has to decide whether to throw before Lee has passed the defender. This is a handicap. Trent hasn't showed the ability or anyway the willingness to make decisions on a long ball that early. Which is why he has completed so few of them. 2) Can he throw through the winds at the Ralph? JP proved he could. Trent simply hasn't proved anything here, just the opposite. He could still learn it and become good. But to this point, he hasn't. OP, this post just doesn't get close to the point. good post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I'd be interested to know on what side of the ball and what position and at what level of NCAA play. If on offense, I'd be interested in the type of sets your coaches used. Thanks. GO BILLS!!! LB in the Pac 10...I played some offense in high school, but not in college. See Magox, short answer...lmao... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 LB in the Pac 10...I played some offense in high school, but not in college. See Magox, short answer...lmao... The Pac 10 huh.... everyone knows they don't play defense. Just breakin balls Alpha! I'd like to see how that stacks up to Simon's resume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 The Pac 10 huh.... everyone knows they don't play defense. Just breakin balls Alpha! I'd like to see how that stacks up to Simon's resume. LMAO, I think USC would disagree with you on that one...(and no I didnt play at USC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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