UBinVA Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 What a crying shame if this happens. The government needs to get out of health care decisions and private business practices. This overbearing gov't is getting out of hand if not already. http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...57?OpenDocument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 lol, you made it sound as if someone was forcing them to close. that would be kind of like forcing someone to have a baby they don't want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckeyemike Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 The question here is, can hospitals be mandated or forced BY THE GOVERNMENT to perform abortions? Once the government forces an organization to perform a service against its core beliefs, then freedom dies in this country. It's not a question of individual freedom, as abortion is legal. It's the government telling an private organization that it MUST provide this service...even if they don't want to, or if it goes against religious beliefs. Religious beliefs cannot be trampled on, as they are constitutionally protected, for the individual, for churches, and for religious organizations. Abortion rights advocates want to keep government out of the womb...hospitals should have the same right in a free society to choose whether or not to perform abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 "Sister Carol Keehan, president and CEO of CHA, said in an interview that she did not believe the language in the most recent version of FOCA — despite its definition of abortion as a fundamental right — would force Catholic hospitals to perform abortions. But she also said that if it did, the church would look to the historical example of racial segregation as a model for civil disobedience. "From the other side we hear consistent talk about being pro-choice," Keehan said. "If FOCA passes, the concept of being pro-choice will not be incompatible with our position — our choice would be not to participate." (from the article) This is just another propoganda piece. No-one is trying to FORCE anyone to do abortions. My father was an OB-GYN in private practice and one day a week he volunteered in a clinic. His partners did abortions. He opted not to do them. He did not do them in the clinic either. And he didn't make a big deal of out it either way - he made HIS choice and let OTHERS make THEIRS. Over the course of his lifetime he delivered over 5,000 babies but never tried to interfere with others' decisions not to have them. The Catholic Church is just trying to scare people by threatening to close their hospitals if legislation they don't like is passed. Maybe they ought to ignore it and continue NOT to do abortions like they are doing today, and focus on getting rid of all those pedophile priests they have covered for all these years. By the way: I'm Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 The question here is, can hospitals be mandated or forced BY THE GOVERNMENT to perform abortions? Once the government forces an organization to perform a service against its core beliefs, then freedom dies in this country. It's not a question of individual freedom, as abortion is legal. It's the government telling an private organization that it MUST provide this service...even if they don't want to, or if it goes against religious beliefs. Religious beliefs cannot be trampled on, as they are constitutionally protected, for the individual, for churches, and for religious organizations. Abortion rights advocates want to keep government out of the womb...hospitals should have the same right in a free society to choose whether or not to perform abortions. That's like saying can a marine be forced to go into battle if it's against his beliefs to shoot someone. Well no, but so also he can't have the job of being a marine. Can a garbage man be forced to pick up garbage if its against his beliefs to touch garbage. No, but then he can't be a garbage man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 That's like saying can a marine be forced to go into battle if it's against his beliefs to shoot someone. Well no, but so also he can't have the job of being a marine. Can a garbage man be forced to pick up garbage if its against his beliefs to touch garbage. No, but then he can't be a garbage man. You would have a point if the hospitals were created to give abortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 You would have a point if the hospitals were created to give abortions. Because Marines don't do other things besides shoot people? It's part of their job, but not all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 The Catholic Church is just trying to scare people by threatening to close their hospitals if legislation they don't like is passed. Maybe they ought to ignore it and continue NOT to do abortions like they are doing today, and focus on getting rid of all those pedophile priests they have covered for all these years. By the way: I'm Catholic. Your Catholic in name only, and I don't recognize anyone as a Catholic who doesn't see the seriousness of abortion and ridicules others who stick to principle and not toleration as it applies to doctrine. Toleration is not a virtue, and toleration of evil is not tolerance but tacit acceptance. Then your defense of this stupidity with eliminated pedophiles, who aren't pedophiles, but homosexuals (look up what a pedophile is) who abuse young men. Yes, I agree that active homosexuals should be thrown out of the priesthood, as any seminarian who even has proclivities should be thrown out. That's Catholic teaching. Yes, I'm a Catholic and believe the Catholic Church and have actively fought against homosexuality which is a scourge of not only the nation but the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Because Marines don't do other things besides shoot people? It's part of their job, but not all of it. Catholic hospitals are opposed to killing, and abortion is killing. Part of a Marines duties are to kill if necessary. The Marine analogy fits, but in the opposite way. You are telling a Marine he cannot kill in combat, in the same way you are telling an institution that is supposed to save life to kill life. Your analogy fits, but much different than you think. Ask why they do something and look for the cause. It's really that simple. If that institution is supposed to allow, actively or passively, the taking of innocent life then it's existence would be a contradiction to the mission it was instituted on and cannot function without being in principle compromised on a core belief. To make the analogy easier, it would be the same as telling a PETA member to eat a roast beef sandwich, or force PETA to sell roast beef from their locations to any member as to allow freedom to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 fine, make me read the stupid aricle.. Listen, if the hospitals are 100% private as (I believe PETA is) then your analogy would fit. And if they are 100% private then I think they are not forced to perform abortions.. If FOCA were to become law, it continued, "We do not believe our Catholic hospitals would be forced to participate and we would advocate strongly for our right of conscience to refuse to provide abortion services." So I think this is a big much ado about nothing. The Hospitals won't have to change anything, they just want to be loud an obnoxious because they can be. Over exaggerating the stance of your opponent in a debate and then attacking the exaggeration is always a way to get people on your side. So lets be clear, these private hospitals will not be forced to perform abortions. They are hyping this up as a scare tactic. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBinVA Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 This is just another example of government chipping away at our liberty and freedoms with more federal regulations and foolish laws. Most on this board are too stupid realize it that every law, every regulation, and every bill passed strips us of more freedoms and personal choice and this is just another example of that. Government has intruded into our lives far too much and it needs to stop. If you want your government to tell you what you can eat, what medical treatment you can receive and when, what car you should buy, what you can or can't do on your property, then go right ahead. I sir will not, and I will fight this tyranny with every breadth. "Public service is simply, and absolutely, about advancing the interests of Americans." - Barack H. Obama, January 21, 2009 So Connor you drone, who defines the interests of Americans? Obama? Pelosi? left wing liberals like George Soros? I reject this populist belief system that Obama is spinning and all he stands for. Obama is a Marxist and Fascist and when this finally realizes it, it will be too late. These people in Washington are career politicians and are more interested in power than in "Public Service". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Your Catholic in name only, and I don't recognize anyone as a Catholic who doesn't see the seriousness of abortion and ridicules others who stick to principle and not toleration as it applies to doctrine. Toleration is not a virtue, and toleration of evil is not tolerance but tacit acceptance. Then your defense of this stupidity with eliminated pedophiles, who aren't pedophiles, but homosexuals (look up what a pedophile is) who abuse young men. Yes, I agree that active homosexuals should be thrown out of the priesthood, as any seminarian who even has proclivities should be thrown out. That's Catholic teaching. Yes, I'm a Catholic and believe the Catholic Church and have actively fought against homosexuality which is a scourge of not only the nation but the world. You are an idiot. And tell me how "Public service is simply, and absolutely, about advancing the interests of Americans." - Barack H. Obama, January 21, 2009 is a BAD thing? Are you advocating we implement a DRAFT for the military, because our soldiers are volunteering and that's bad? I thought Jesus preached that we should love and help one another? Did He mean only if we get PAID? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeseburger_in_paradise Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 That's like saying can a marine be forced to go into battle if it's against his beliefs to shoot someone. Well no, but so also he can't have the job of being a marine. Can a garbage man be forced to pick up garbage if its against his beliefs to touch garbage. No, but then he can't be a garbage man. This is more like a lifeguard being told to drown the people who can't swim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 This is more like a lifeguard being told to drown the people who can't swim. I responded to this analogy here: http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1345193 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 This is just another example of government chipping away at our liberty and freedoms with more federal regulations and foolish laws. Most on this board are too stupid realize it that every law, every regulation, and every bill passed strips us of more freedoms and personal choice and this is just another example of that. Government has intruded into our lives far too much and it needs to stop. If you want your government to tell you what you can eat, what medical treatment you can receive and when, what car you should buy, what you can or can't do on your property, then go right ahead. I sir will not, and I will fight this tyranny with every breadth. "Public service is simply, and absolutely, about advancing the interests of Americans." - Barack H. Obama, January 21, 2009 So Connor you drone, who defines the interests of Americans? Obama? Pelosi? left wing liberals like George Soros? I reject this populist belief system that Obama is spinning and all he stands for. Obama is a Marxist and Fascist and when this finally realizes it, it will be too late. These people in Washington are career politicians and are more interested in power than in "Public Service". Dude you're a total conspiracy theorist right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 You are an idiot. And tell me how "Public service is simply, and absolutely, about advancing the interests of Americans." - Barack H. Obama, January 21, 2009 is a BAD thing? Are you advocating we implement a DRAFT for the military, because our soldiers are volunteering and that's bad? I thought Jesus preached that we should love and help one another? Did He mean only if we get PAID? Can you please explain how my post had anything to do with the military, and when you are done reviewing the context of what I wrote and what you said please refer to yourself as the idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StupidNation Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 fine, make me read the stupid aricle.. Listen, if the hospitals are 100% private as (I believe PETA is) then your analogy would fit. And if they are 100% private then I think they are not forced to perform abortions.. So I think this is a big much ado about nothing. The Hospitals won't have to change anything, they just want to be loud an obnoxious because they can be. Over exaggerating the stance of your opponent in a debate and then attacking the exaggeration is always a way to get people on your side. So lets be clear, these private hospitals will not be forced to perform abortions. They are hyping this up as a scare tactic. End of story. You are using 100% as a litmus test, but I can point to many organizations which are mostly private which accept gov't money. Are all Catholic hospitals private, not all, but the majority are. Still, the open-minded argument which liberals used is violated for their purposes. Can there be a debate and open teaching on intelligent design in public schools? Of course not because it doesn't fit ideology, and they are 100% non-private and yet they restrict schools through the ACLU. Can I keep making examples for you? Bottom line is this is far more damaging than you realize, and I hope Catholic hospitals close if this is true. I hope good doctors go to other countries, which will be the inevitable, and the OB-GYNs continue to leave the field. Maybe they can be replaced by lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 ...Then your defense of this stupidity with eliminated pedophiles, who aren't pedophiles, but homosexuals (look up what a pedophile is) who abuse young men. Yes, I agree that active homosexuals should be thrown out of the priesthood, as any seminarian who even has proclivities should be thrown out... Pedophilia and homosexuatlity ARE NOT mutually exclusive. ANYONE who preys upon children for sexual pleasure IS a pedophile. Your understanding of the word is lacking. Or are you suggesting that these homosexual priests engaged and/or fantasized about sexual activity with POST-pubescent kids only? Seems that while you are outraged by the fact a Catholic priest can be homosexual you just can't accept that he may be a pedophile as well. I wonder why that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBinVA Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Dude you're a total conspiracy theorist right now. He who controls the money, controls you. That's a simple fact. No conspiracy in those statements. The bigger the government, the more control they have and the less control you have. Liberty is diminished and freedoms that we take for granted are taken away. Just wait when the government takes over health care and you have to wait in line or not get that operation you need for 6-12 months if at all. You're a moron, go live in France for a year then tell me if you like that kind of socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 After reading a few more articles on the matter this threat by the Bishops is a blatant attempt at manipulation for the sake of political argument. NOBODY is going to FORCE ANY institution to perform ANY procedure they don't wish to perform. Ironically, if these hospitals were to be closed by the Church (and they won't be) then I would find it tragically ironic that the Church would choose to force sick and dying people to find alternative care. Not to mention the hospitals workers suddenly needing to find new jobs elsewhere. If only we had as much concern for human beings outside of the womb as we do for the embryos and fetuses inside the womb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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