Everette Brown on ESPN's First Take

[Magox]

I agree but he makes a good point. We have just gotten burned by our second Texas o-lineman.

I understand, but that doesn't mean you exclusively base your decision on which college football program thatl they came from. If you do this, that would mean that any high school or junior transfer recruit that goes to Texas or Florida State to play football, has decided and changed their fate, and is destined to be a bad NFL pro football player. I don't buy into that bullsh*t. No disrespect, it just doesn't fly with my logic.

 

That is not to say that you don't take into consideration the offensive or defensive philosophies that the school may implement. For instance, If I see a college football team that is known to pass a lot, like Texas Tech for instance and a football player like Harell or Crabtree has amazing stats, then I would as a NFL scout, take that into consideration, and see if there is more to it then the stats.

 

I just think it is silly to dismiss a player, just because of the football program that they come from.

[PushthePile]

I understand, but that doesn't mean you exclusively base your decision on which college football program thatl they came from. If you do this, that would mean that any high school or junior transfer recruit that goes to Texas or Florida State to play football, has decided and changed their fate, and is destined to be a bad NFL pro football player. I don't buy into that bullsh*t. No disrespect, it just doesn't fly with my logic.

 

That is not to say that you don't take into consideration the offensive or defensive philosophies that the school may implement. For instance, If I see a college football team that is known to pass a lot, like Texas Tech for instance and a football player like Harell or Crabtree has amazing stats, then I would as a NFL scout, take that into consideration, and see if there is more to it then the stats.

 

I just think it is silly to dismiss a player, just because of the football program that they come from.

It is foolish and it's surely not something that is taken into account by NFL teams.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

By the way Horseshoe, I snuck a peak at your posts and am impressed.

 

Are you advocating taking Andre Smith at #11 if he slides that far? I wouldn't have a problem with that although he sounds like a Texas OL even if he didn't play there.

 

Also of the 3 top pass rushers, who do you like the best?

People want to take away all that Smith did over an amazing three year career and throw it out for a minny meltdown. Again, he just turned 22 and he showed his age for a month! The guy dominated the SEC for three years and that is enough for me.

Out of the pass rushers the one that impressed me the most was Orakpo. Go back and watch the OU game where he dominated Phil Loadholt who was a consensus All American at LT. He got dinged up a bit this year but still finished the year playing very well against Ohio St. Someone asked him at the combine where he saw himself playing and he said, "I dont care where I play as long as I can rush the passer!" That along with his play and the fact that he is an absolute physical freak makes me think that he is THE guy. I do like the way Maybin plays. He plays with an attitude and is a natural leaader. Great pass rusher, incredible first step but is very lightly built.

For the guy that doubted my thoughts on FSU DE's, you are missing the point. FSU DE's play upfield only. They rarely shade the T's and never play a 5 or 7 technique (Shading the T or splitting the TE/T) . They always play over the open man and when you get the NFL you just cant do that every play. And that is why every FSU DE was a falure. Same reason why Florida WR's suck. They dont learn route progressions and rely on matchups to beat their man. So while there is always an exeption like a Steve Young, who has made it since then? Peter Boulware, who has made it since him? Remember Reidel Anthony or Travis Taylor...FLOPS! DO you see what I mean?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

People want to take away all that Smith did over an amazing three year career and throw it out for a minny meltdown. Again, he just turned 22 and he showed his age for a month! The guy dominated the SEC for three years and that is enough for me.

Out of the pass rushers the one that impressed me the most was Orakpo. Go back and watch the OU game where he dominated Phil Loadholt who was a consensus All American at LT. He got dinged up a bit this year but still finished the year playing very well against Ohio St. Someone asked him at the combine where he saw himself playing and he said, "I dont care where I play as long as I can rush the passer!" That along with his play and the fact that he is an absolute physical freak makes me think that he is THE guy. I do like the way Maybin plays. He plays with an attitude and is a natural leaader. Great pass rusher, incredible first step but is very lightly built.

For the guy that doubted my thoughts on FSU DE's, you are missing the point. FSU DE's play upfield only. They rarely shade the T's and never play a 5 or 7 technique (Shading the T or splitting the TE/T) . They always play over the open man and when you get the NFL you just cant do that every play. And that is why every FSU DE was a falure. Same reason why Florida WR's suck. They dont learn route progressions and rely on matchups to beat their man. So while there is always an exeption like a Steve Young, who has made it since then? Peter Boulware, who has made it since him? Remember Reidel Anthony or Travis Taylor...FLOPS! DO you see what I mean?

 

I thought you might make a great reply. Awesome stuff.

 

Well it's all a guessing game. Not all opinions are created equally however no one is right all the time either.

 

I understand that you're not disqualifying certain schools (ie-Texas) due to the school itself, but more so because of the system they run at certain positions. This is the exact point that many people miss when we have these types of discussions.

 

That said, I think Everette Brown is one of the exceptions. Should be fun to watch it all unfold. Last year no pass rushers made an impact. Quentin Groves, Derrick Harvey, Calais Campbell, Chris Long, Vernon Gholston, Chris Ellis, etc.

 

If Orakpo, Brown or Harvin make an impact as a rookie it would be almost unexpected.

 

Shawne Merriman had 10 sacks as a rookie and DeMarcus Ware had 8. That's probably the most we could hope for in a rookie pass rusher.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

It is foolish and it's surely not something that is taken into account by NFL teams.

Well, you are wrong. Kids get into colleges and learn how to play within the systems that they are in. They develop terrible habits that they never break. That is why Ohio St. pumps out talent to the NFL every year. Unlike a team like West Virgina, who's LBs play in a 3-3 system where their keys are completly different. Ever hear of a Mountaineer LB in the NFL? But WVU is always in the top 15 right? SO, when you're groomed to play a certain position in a "niche" type D for 4-5 years you are going to be lost. Thats my point.

[Magox]

Well, you are wrong. Kids get into colleges and learn how to play within the systems that they are in. They develop terrible habits that they never break. That is why Ohio St. pumps out talent to the NFL every year. Unlike a team like West Virgina, who's LBs play in a 3-3 system where their keys are completly different. Ever hear of a Mountaineer LB in the NFL? But WVU is always in the top 15 right? SO, when you're groomed to play a certain position in a "niche" type D for 4-5 years you are going to be lost. Thats my point.

That's not the argument though Shanahan.

 

What you implied was that since Everett Plays for Florida State, you should cross him off and not consider drafting him at the #11 spot. That is what you implied.

 

That logic is a flawed logic.

 

As I stated in one of my posts, if you go back and read, it is definitely something to consider, the system that they play in, but it shouldn't be the exclusive reason of why you should or shouldn't draft a player.

 

agreed?

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

That's not the argument though Shanahan.

 

What you implied was that since Everett Plays for Florida State, you should cross him off and not consider drafting him at the #11 spot. That is what you implied.

 

That logic is a flawed logic.

 

As I stated in one of my posts, if you go back and read, it is definitely something to consider, the system that they play in, but it shouldn't be the exclusive reason of why you should or shouldn't draft a player.

 

agreed?

I totally agree. That being said you HAVE to pay attention to lineage. Again, Larry Johnson, when he not melting down, is a great back. Then there is Ki Carter, Curtis Enis, Blair Thomas and Tony Hunt. Ike Hilliard has been decent. But how about Chris Doering, Reidel Anthony, Dallas Baker, Jack Jackson, Travis Taylor or Taylor Jacobs? So does it really mean anything when PSU RB goes for 1500? Or a Florida WR is an all american? No, it usually means their system is working.

So while you would be a fool to dismiss E Brown before watching tape, I say be very careful. Because Jamal Reynolds, Wadsworth, WIlson all had a bunch of sacks in that same system too.

[Ramius]

We have enough polite guys that say the right things. As far as him being the best, Reinard Wilson, Andre Wadsworth, Jamal Reynolds and Kamrion Wimbley said they were going to be the best too. Stay away from FSU DE's, they play with zero responsibily at FSU and thats why they can't adjust in the NFL. No FSU DE's, Florida WR's, Texas O Lineman and no Penn St. RB's!

 

Interesting that you pick those 4. Wimbley and Wilson were both converted to LBs by their NFL coaching staff, not to mention that Wimbley did have 12 sacks in 2006 as a rookie. I'm not ready to write him off yet. Plus, switching a player from a 3 point stance DE to a stand up rush LB isn't as simple as many would have you believe. Wadsworth was hurt most of his short NFL career, so the actual bust label is unfair. You can't say how successful or unsuccessful he would have been. Reynolds is the only true bust out of that crowd. We'd be drafting Brown presumably as a DE, not an OLB, so there's no sense in comparing to other FSU DEs that were converted to LBs.

 

FSU DE's don't "play without responsibility." Their responsibility is to get in the backfield and create havoc and break up plays, since we run an attacking defense designed to get to the ball carrier. They don't have the traditional role of stacking the line.

[Magox]

I totally agree. That being said you HAVE to pay attention to lineage. Again, Larry Johnson, when he not melting down, is a great back. Then there is Ki Carter, Curtis Enis, Blair Thomas and Tony Hunt. Ike Hilliard has been decent. But how about Chris Doering, Reidel Anthony, Dallas Baker, Jack Jackson, Travis Taylor or Taylor Jacobs? So does it really mean anything when PSU RB goes for 1500? Or a Florida WR is an all american? No, it usually means their system is working.

So while you would be a fool to dismiss E Brown before watching tape, I say be very careful. Because Jamal Reynolds, Wadsworth, WIlson all had a bunch of sacks in that same system too.

agreed

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

Interesting that you pick those 4. Wimbley and Wilson were both converted to LBs by their NFL coaching staff, not to mention that Wimbley did have 12 sacks in 2006 as a rookie. I'm not ready to write him off yet. Plus, switching a player from a 3 point stance DE to a stand up rush LB isn't as simple as many would have you believe. Wadsworth was hurt most of his short NFL career, so the actual bust label is unfair. You can't say how successful or unsuccessful he would have been. Reynolds is the only true bust out of that crowd. We'd be drafting Brown presumably as a DE, not an OLB, so there's no sense in comparing to other FSU DEs that were converted to LBs.

 

FSU DE's don't "play without responsibility." Their responsibility is to get in the backfield and create havoc and break up plays, since we run an attacking defense designed to get to the ball carrier. They don't have the traditional role of stacking the line.

A player that never gets onto the field is a bust wether it is unfair or not. I loved Wadswoth coming out of college, he reminded me of Bruce Smith. He played DT up unitl his Jr. year then shedded about 25 lbs and was a beast off of the edge. But, he couldnt get on the field so he was a bust. Your same logic could be used about for Cade Mccnown and Tim Couch too but they are still busts.

Wimbley followed up a strong rookie year with 4 and 5 sack years so who knows, maybe Tackles ACTUALLY DO watch film and learned that he is a one trick pony with an upfied rush and thats about it. No counter moves, just used to flyin straight up filed (see Kelsey and Schobel).

Reinard Wilson got moved to LB in a 4-3 after years of failing at DE for the Bengals.

If Brown is going to be successful, it will not be in a 4-3 so this discussion doesnt really matter anyway.

[Ramius]

A player that never gets onto the field is a bust wether it is unfair or not. I loved Wadswoth coming out of college, he reminded me of Bruce Smith. He played DT up unitl his Jr. year then shedded about 25 lbs and was a beast off of the edge. But, he couldnt get on the field so he was a bust. Your same logic could be used about for Cade Mccnown and Tim Couch too but they are still busts.

Wimbley followed up a strong rookie year with 4 and 5 sack years so who knows, maybe Tackles ACTUALLY DO watch film and learned that he is a one trick pony with an upfied rush and thats about it. No counter moves, just used to flyin straight up filed (see Kelsey and Schobel).

Reinard Wilson got moved to LB in a 4-3 after years of failing at DE for the Bengals.

If Brown is going to be successful, it will not be in a 4-3 so this discussion doesnt really matter anyway.

 

There is no legit reason to think Brown wouldn't be successful as a 4-3 DE. He's got the speed and the moves to be a hell of a pass rusher. The onyl real knock on him is he needs to focus more on wrapping up in the backfield (especially on sacks). Too many times he went for the strip and let the QB escape his grasp. But that is something that can be corrected.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

There is no legit reason to think Brown wouldn't be successful as a 4-3 DE. He's got the speed and the moves to be a hell of a pass rusher. The onyl real knock on him is he needs to focus more on wrapping up in the backfield (especially on sacks). Too many times he went for the strip and let the QB escape his grasp. But that is something that can be corrected.

I didn't notice that you were from the home of FSU. I understand the biased opinion then. You probably think that Bowden, who comes through with a top 10 recruiting class every year, is great at developing talent from that tower. How is Jimbo working out down there?

[PushthePile]

Well, you are wrong. Kids get into colleges and learn how to play within the systems that they are in. They develop terrible habits that they never break. That is why Ohio St. pumps out talent to the NFL every year. Unlike a team like West Virgina, who's LBs play in a 3-3 system where their keys are completly different. Ever hear of a Mountaineer LB in the NFL? But WVU is always in the top 15 right? SO, when you're groomed to play a certain position in a "niche" type D for 4-5 years you are going to be lost. Thats my point.

Believe me, we are on the same page. I completely agree that a system dictates the style in which a player learns to play. However, I do think that it is a little over the top to start eliminating the possibility of drafting a player based on his school. Some guys are gifted enough to be successful in any system. I don't know whether or not Everette Brown is that type of player but I do know the kid has alot of moves and room to grow physically. From the reports I've read the kid has alot of intelligence to go along with his physical gifts as well. To say that his only chance of making it is in a 3-4 defense is nothing more than a prediction. I respect your opinion but disagree on this one. Our very own Darryl Talley was a West Virginia product but alot has changed since his days.

[BeastMode54]

I just heard Everette Brown on ESPN radio in NYC. I have to say I was impressed. He came off as an intelligent guy, who said at one point that he feels he has the physical tools to make it in the NFL, but it's the mental side, the X's and O's that he feels he is ahead of other players. He studies the game and he said talking to teams they feel he could play 3-4 or 4-3 LB as well as 4-3 end. His size worries me a bit, but I think all of the DE's in this draft are a question mark. Orakpo, Brown, and Maybin all have great potential, but all have question marks. There really is no pick in most drafts that doesn't have the potential to bust. If we pick any one of those guys I would be happy. If they bust, that's just what happens, but at least they will be making a move to address DE and a top talent at that

[Ramius]

I didn't notice that you were from the home of FSU. I understand the biased opinion then. You probably think that Bowden, who comes through with a top 10 recruiting class every year, is great at developing talent from that tower. How is Jimbo working out down there?

 

Check my posting history jackass. I've been nothing but level about Brown and his strengths and weaknesses. I have nothing to gain by propping Brown up. Yes i am rooting for him hard and i want him to be successful, but that gives me no reason not be be completely straight about a guy i've watched play for 3 years.

 

And since your reading comprehension seems to be lacking, i didn't say that Brown was going to be successful. I said there's no legit reason to think he can't be successful. I guess i should have expected less from a mongoloid who's draft analysis consists of saying, "deerrrr, uhhh, dont draft position X from school Y, its a sure bust!"

 

Since you're so attuned to FSU, why don't you tell me how Jimbo is doing? Oh wait, lemme guess your response, "ZOMG! FSU wuz 9-4 last season. Jimbo is teh suxors!"

[R. Rich]

Check my posting history jackass.

 

Don't do it, Shanahan. It's brutal.