Jabari signs with Saints

[GG]

Last year, in our "playoff run", they couldn't afford to get McKelvin out on the field. He might make a mistake. So, they played guys that were hobbled and lost games anyway.

 

Everyone knows McKelvin has talent, but he himself even admitted that he just wasn't getting it and wasn't ready. You can blame the coaches if you want as well -- perhaps they really do not know how to design a defense around a guy with limited reps. However, it took at injury to get him on the field. It wasn't the 1st round pick status or the idea that they needed to work him in on snaps to prepare for the team's future because Greer was a UFA. No, that would smack of actual planning. It took Greer getting hurt and being unable to go to get McKelvin on the field in the defense.

 

Anyway you want to slice it, McKelvin is yet another unproven guy the Bills hope can fill a hole. I also am hopeful that he can, but I realize he hasn't shown a penchant for disciplined play. Yet again, the Bills let talent leave, so one of the few positions with some depth on the roster becomes threadbare.

 

At least they saved a few bucks.

 

And it took an injury to a useless vet to get Greer on the field. It took an injury to an aging vet to get Jackson on the field. It took an injury to Fowler in 2008 to finally justify getting him out of the lineup, even though it was clear in 2006 that he wasn't cutting it. Youboty, for all his health issues has played well when he was in the games, yet was always sent back to the bench.

 

Which goes right down to the coach who's so afraid of his own shadow that he will not take veteran players out of the lineup, no matter how badly they play.

[Dawgg]

And it took an injury to a useless vet to get Greer on the field. It took an injury to an aging vet to get Jackson on the field. It took an injury to Fowler in 2008 to finally justify getting him out of the lineup, even though it was clear in 2006 that he wasn't cutting it. Youboty, for all his health issues has played well when he was in the games, yet was always sent back to the bench.

 

Which goes right down to the coach who's so afraid of his own shadow that he will not take veteran players out of the lineup, no matter how badly they play.

That's certainly a problem with the coaching staff, namely Richard Jauron. But who identifies Melvin Fowler as a free agent signee? Who decides to draft McCargo? Who decides to reach on Whitner? Who decides to overpay Chris Kelsay and subsequently an aging Schobel? That's all the front office. It's written in their contract that they have final say over all personnel decisions. Does Dick have major input? Absolutely? But the buck stops at the front office and they are responsible for the lack of talent on this squad.

[Sisyphean Bills]

And it took an injury to a useless vet to get Greer on the field. It took an injury to an aging vet to get Jackson on the field. It took an injury to Fowler in 2008 to finally justify getting him out of the lineup, even though it was clear in 2006 that he wasn't cutting it. Youboty, for all his health issues has played well when he was in the games, yet was always sent back to the bench.

 

Which goes right down to the coach who's so afraid of his own shadow that he will not take veteran players out of the lineup, no matter how badly they play.

I thought my position on this coach was very well established.

 

(Read: I totally agree and that doesn't change the fact that McKelvin is unproven.)

 

To clarify earlier comments: McKelvin himself said he wasn't getting the defense. I don't know what Troy State does in their secondary, but it doesn't instill a lot of confidence. He's unproven at best and at worst he was buried on the depth chart behind Greer, McGee, Youboty and Corner last season for much of the year. He might be better than Greer, but who knows? The competition of having him beat Greer out for the starting job would be the anti-Jauron way of building a team. Who wants the stress of competition when one can set up a system that simply crowns players based on salary or draft position, right? Especially given the Bills second-to-none stellar draft track record. Finally, there are advantages in having Greer and McKelvin going forward over McKelvin and Florence. So, I'm hopeful that McKelvin's light goes on and all, but I'll wait for the egg to hatch before counting it as a chick.

[Leonidas]

Guys - the Bills didn't draft McKelvin #11 overall to play the nickel. He started after Greer went down in week 10(?), meaning he had fewer starts but just as many interceptions (2), is considerably younger, and has a much higher ceiling. I liked Greer, but I think a lot of you are looking at him with rose-colored glasses on. Don't forget, he barely made the team the year before last.

[GG]

That's certainly a problem with the coaching staff, namely Richard Jauron. But who identifies Melvin Fowler as a free agent signee? Who decides to draft McCargo? Who decides to reach on Whitner? Who decides to overpay Chris Kelsay and subsequently an aging Schobel? That's all the front office. It's written in their contract that they have final say over all personnel decisions. Does Dick have major input? Absolutely? But the buck stops at the front office and they are responsible for the lack of talent on this squad.

 

The front office's contract is worth only the signature of the owner, which has been solidly proven in nearly 50 years that he is the ultimate decider. I don't know how many times it's been hinted that since TD was let go, Guy's and Modrak's job has been to recommend players, yet they were not the ultimate decision makers on the personnel.

 

That leaves, Wilson, Levy & Jauron. But, Levy admitted that he would simply be the coordinator among all factions of the team, not the guy making all the decisions. We also learned sometime last year that Jauron had a lot more input into personnel decisions than an ordinary coach.

 

So that leaves me to conclude that the final roster decisions were made by Jauron & Wilson.

[Fan in Chicago]

You don't just spend money for the sake of spending it, that's retarded. Greer had two interceptions last year people. He wasn't Champ Bailey. When McGee comes up for a new contract we're going to have to pay him - we couldn't afford to pay three starting CB's salaries, hence the purpose of the salary cap. That extra money will go towards Jason Peters (ugh), upcoming draft picks, and any other free agents worth the $$. Greer reportedly (http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/billsnfl/story/597816.html) signed for $23M over four years (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast/0-6-21/Greer-thanks-Buffalo-on-his-way-to-New-Orleans.html). The consensus is that McGee is the better corner, although if the FO really thought Jabari was starting material in this league we should have matched it and shopped McGee. But throwing money at the nickelback is the kind of move that gets us back in salary cap hell. There is a difference between being cheap and being prudent. This was the latter.

'For the sake of spending' does not apply here because we are not over-spending on an average player at a position of need. We would be spending a tad more (than we spent on Florence) to totally lock down the CB spots and make it the one uncontested strength of the team. If McKelvin developed, we could have then had the option to let McGee walk next year. But as of now, we have a unproven #11 pick from last year and a vet who might be on the decline. Also, just because we drafted McKelvin high does not mean we get rid of our other options in the hope that McK will turn out to be a player we need him to be. Again, if McK indeed works out, we could have had the choice of trading Greer next year or letting McGee go. This is not prudent cash management - it is a be cheap and pray mentality which has failed us in the era of free agency.

[Ramius]

Greer is a good player, NOT a great one. The good teams in the NFL hand out large contracts to keep their superstars around, and let above average players walk for way too much money. Greer is NOT a superstar. He wasn't worth the money. Hes a nice player to have, but easy to let go and replace when his contract comes due. We got a reasonable deal on drayton florence, and i don't think we'll see too much drop off in production. Greer shouldn't have been any higher than 3rd on the depth chart this season anyway, since McGee is the best corner we've got, and McKelvin is a real up and comer who will be better than greer before too long.

[Leonidas]

'For the sake of spending' does not apply here because we are not over-spending on an average player at a position of need. We would be spending a tad more (than we spent on Florence) to totally lock down the CB spots and make it the one uncontested strength of the team. If McKelvin developed, we could have then had the option to let McGee walk next year. But as of now, we have a unproven #11 pick from last year and a vet who might be on the decline. Also, just because we drafted McKelvin high does not mean we get rid of our other options in the hope that McK will turn out to be a player we need him to be. Again, if McK indeed works out, we could have had the choice of trading Greer next year or letting McGee go. This is not prudent cash management - it is a be cheap and pray mentality which has failed us in the era of free agency.

 

If you try and trade Greer you get hit with a salary cap penalty (look it up). Also, what do you think the trade value is of a guy like Greer? When was the last time you saw a mid-level CB traded? In fact, aside from Champ Bailey, when was the last time you saw ANY CB traded??

 

Listen to Ramius, he's right on with this one. Greer was good, not great. I'm glad he got a good contract from New Orleans, but don't forget: so did Jason David.

[MattyT]

Anybody know what the Saints paid that pig Jason David a few years ago? I bet they get more than their money's worth with Greer compared to that debacle.

[Fan in Chicago]

If you try and trade Greer you get hit with a salary cap penalty (look it up). Also, what do you think the trade value is of a guy like Greer? When was the last time you saw a mid-level CB traded? In fact, aside from Champ Bailey, when was the last time you saw ANY CB traded??

 

Listen to Ramius, he's right on with this one. Greer was good, not great. I'm glad he got a good contract from New Orleans, but don't forget: so did Jason David.

 

Okay, I have not thought through the 'cap hit' part of it. But I do understand that it was a small price to pay Greer (over Florence) in return for the confidence of knowing that Greer is good. I never argued that Greer is great. I am saying he is more than just 'good', he was a good fit in our system, had played well for us and liked playing for us. I will gladly take a player like Greer any day on my team.

[Sisyphean Bills]

One other point is that the Bills own actions do not support the "we're all set and don't need you" read of the situation. The Bills openly pursued Greer before free agency and publicly said they very much wanted him back. They pursued him after the FA period began. They made counter offers and continued the pursuit right up to the last moment. Then, they immediately turned around and signed Florence before the ink was dry on the contract between Greer and the Saints. These actions are simply not consistent with a team that thinks it has all the bases covered without Greer.

 

These actions are, however, consistent with a team that has had severe injury problems in their secondary and that plays the Patriots' high octane spread offense twice a year.

[Leonidas]

Okay, I have not thought through the 'cap hit' part of it. But I do understand that it was a small price to pay Greer (over Florence) in return for the confidence of knowing that Greer is good. I never argued that Greer is great. I am saying he is more than just 'good', he was a good fit in our system, had played well for us and liked playing for us. I will gladly take a player like Greer any day on my team.

 

Greer is good. Florence is good, too. The problem is Jax thought he was great and paid him as if he was. When he proved to be only "good" he was labeled a "bust," and cut. There will be little drop-off, if any.

[Leonidas]

One other point is that the Bills own actions do not support the "we're all set and don't need you" read of the situation. The Bills openly pursued Greer before free agency and publicly said they very much wanted him back. They pursued him after the FA period began. They made counter offers and continued the pursuit right up to the last moment. Then, they immediately turned around and signed Florence before the ink was dry on the contract between Greer and the Saints. These actions are simply not consistent with a team that thinks it has all the bases covered without Greer.

 

These actions are, however, consistent with a team that has had severe injury problems in their secondary and that plays the Patriots' high octane spread offense twice a year.

 

If you listened, I believe Russ Brandon said "we would love to have Jabari back in the mix next year" which says to me "we'd love to have you back, but at the right price." I think that's 100% correct. Of course they wanted him back, but they had a number they didn't want to cross and to their credit they didn't.

 

After weeks of negotiations failed and it was obvious Greer wasn't coming back (hence visiting with Tampa, Detroit, New Orleans) they did the prudent thing and signed Florence to play the nickel at a fraction of the cost, freeing up money for other positions. Great move by the FO.

[Sisyphean Bills]

If you listened, I believe Russ Brandon said "we would love to have Jabari back in the mix next year" which says to me "we'd love to have you back, but at the right price." I think that's 100% correct. Of course they wanted him back, but they had a number they didn't want to cross and to their credit they didn't.

 

After weeks of negotiations failed and it was obvious Greer wasn't coming back (hence visiting with Tampa, Detroit, New Orleans) they did the prudent thing and signed Florence to play the nickel at a fraction of the cost, freeing up money for other positions. Great move by the FO.

Let me get this straight. If I listened then I would hear things that were never said just like you did. Well, OK then.

[Thoner7]

No

 

you don't get it. If you did, you would of never have made the comment. We did not replace Greer with Florence. Greer is going to be replaced by McKelvin, and McKelvin is getting replaced by either Florence, Corner or Youbouty.

 

So this was not a lateral or backward move.

 

If you break it down you will see. The idea is that McKelvin will be as good if not better than Greer (which is very possible) and expected, and that Florence will be better than what McKelvin was last year at the Nickel spot.

 

Just so you know, Florence was considered going into last year as one of the elite Nickel backers in the league for Sandiego. He was heavily sought after and therefore got the mega contract from Jaguars. He was put into the starting #2 role cb and failed. Therefore he was cut.

 

So now we got Florence for a good deal.

 

 

You dont get it. If you did, you would of never have made the comment. You need two starting corners, and yes we have two for this year, but what about next? If the Bills follow their current trend McGee will walk and we wil be drafting another CB to replace him, rather than a DE, C, TE, or LB. Do you think the ever so cheap Bills are going to extend McGee for less than $5.75 Mil a year? You also seem to think that have three CBs that can start is a bad thing.

[atlbillsfan1975]

We all look at the Pats as a 'model' franchise. And what do they do when a db comes up for contract? They make him an offer but let him go if they believe it is to much. Three starting corner backs making starting cornerback money is to much for any team. We have no idea if the Bills are going to resign McGhee right now. But for this season we have McKelvin and McGhee as starters and some very competent nickel/backups. Who are the available FA DBs next year? Who knows what happens between now and then. I guess i would rather see the Bills focus on right now spending money where it is needed. OL and front seven on D

[Peter]

I am too lazy to read the six pages of posts.

 

Nevertheless, I wish Jabari well even though he is not going to be a Buffalo Bill. He was an underdog and played well for us when we needed him. He also seems like a great guy.

[Leonidas]

None of this matters anyway. Nobody can cover someone for six seconds. If we don't develop a pass rush we won't make it to the playoffs, plain and simple.

[Dawgg]

We all look at the Pats as a 'model' franchise. And what do they do when a db comes up for contract? They make him an offer but let him go if they believe it is to much. Three starting corner backs making starting cornerback money is to much for any team. We have no idea if the Bills are going to resign McGhee right now. But for this season we have McKelvin and McGhee as starters and some very competent nickel/backups. Who are the available FA DBs next year? Who knows what happens between now and then. I guess i would rather see the Bills focus on right now spending money where it is needed. OL and front seven on D

Agreed. The Bills placed a value on Greer and when the bidding went above that, they let him walk. He's simply not worth overbidding for.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Agreed. The Bills placed a value on Greer and when the bidding went above that, they let him walk. He's simply not worth overbidding for.

That begs the question though, when is it time and who is worth keeping at an average or slightly above average market value (we can take blowing the entire salary structure for 1 player off the table as that is clearly not a team building approach) for a struggling franchise that hasn't had success in a decade? Where would you start investing? If not with the guys that you've developed and who have played extremely well in your system, then where?