Steely Dan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 The Bills have Ellis, Schobel, Denney and Kelsey at DE right now. At DT they have Stroud and... I'd rather see them go into the season with just the DE's they have now instead of just the DT's they have now. I just don't get the logic behind a DE being a bigger need than DT. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hossage Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Im thinking that spencer johnson and kyle williams are much better players than kelsay/denney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I'd be happy with an upgrade at either - I was really hoping we'd bring in Jovan Haye, but it was not to be - he signed with Tennessee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 Im thinking that spencer johnson and kyle williams are much better players than kelsay/denney. I disagree, with Schobel coming back healthy and Ellis entering his second year I'd say a DT is a much bigger need. It was said last year that Stroud in the middle should make it easier on the DE's and I just don't think Stroud could do it alone. Another big run stuffing QB sacking guy in the middle of the line would be far more important in my book than a DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 It's really all about sacks. You're not going to get many from a DT no matter who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiemonster Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I'll tell you why, because since Bruuuce, we haven't had that guy who throws the fear into the hearts of opposing qb's, it is pretty evident that we haven't had a real good pass rush over the last several years. Withe the benefit of Schobel coming back, hopefully strong, and Stroud in the middle, a Maturing Poz, and a can't miss 11 overall pick at the other end, and we should solve our pass rushing problems. Besides, the prevailing thought as the Raji, the best DT in the draft will not be there for the Bills. So I say DE is our biggest priority, hopefully we can get a good one, and we can addres the WR issue via FA, DE, then Center or TE in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 The Bills have Ellis, Schobel, Denney and Kelsey at DE right now. At DT they have Stroud and... I'd rather see them go into the season with just the DE's they have now instead of just the DT's they have now. I just don't get the logic behind a DE being a bigger need than DT. JMO Hey Steely, I would say two things. Statistically the Bills were 22nd in run defense, both in yards surrendered per game and in yards per rush. Statistically the Bills were 28th in sacks and 27th in interceptions which most people view as a function of QB pressure. So statistically the argument favors pass rushers, not run stuffers, unless your argument is for a pass rushing interior lineman. Secondly, Aaron Schobel is coming off injury and is a year older. Chris Ellis is not assured of making a step forward in progress although I hope/think he will. So we are not guaranteed of getting more quarterback pressure than we did last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFinkle Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I disagree, with Schobel coming back healthy and Ellis entering his second year I'd say a DT is a much bigger need. It was said last year that Stroud in the middle should make it easier on the DE's and I just don't think Stroud could do it alone. Another big run stuffing QB sacking guy in the middle of the line would be far more important in my book than a DE. Schobel is going to be 32 when the season starts. For a guy who is strictly as speed rusher, that is not a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyBall4Buffalo Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 The Bills have Ellis, Schobel, Denney and Kelsey at DE right now. At DT they have Stroud and... I'd rather see them go into the season with just the DE's they have now instead of just the DT's they have now. I just don't get the logic behind a DE being a bigger need than DT. JMO Ellis- What about Ellis are you basing this preconceived notion of progression on? His lack of playing time? Where his 3 tackles on the season really that impressive? The fact is Ellis was undersized this year, and maybe some pundits were right that he's better off as a 3-4 olb then a 4-3 end. You don't go into a season expecting a gigantic step, when showing nothing all year. Schobel- I like Schobel. He's a good player when healthy. He also seems to drop weight every year. It wasn't too long ago when he was in the 260-265 range. He's now maybe 240. He may not become that 10+ sack guy anymore we desperately need. He's improved his game against the run. He's also going to be 32 years old, and will only decline. Coming off an injury. Again it's bad football design to count on him regaining years prior form Denney- He's ok as a 3rd-4th string dend. He's awful seeing significant playing time. The giant stork often stands too tall, can't get leverage, and is easily pushed out of the play. He has no speed. His ability to bat down balls, is a reflection of his lack of an edge rush. Strictly Depth Non starter Kelsay- Team Captain. Useless money stealing player. I dont know what about him the Bills brass likes, but anyone with eyes can see just how terrible this man is. He consistetly crashes down, instead of playing contain leading to easy 6 yard gains on off tackle runs and end arounds toward his size. His jump off the ball is slower then the start up time of dial up internet. His ability to close is even worse. Lacks pass rushing moves, power, and his tackling is shoddy. A reserve player making starter money. Garbage I'd rather have Copeland Bryan. He may not get stats, but he actually has some speed off the edge As far as dt goes. I agree. We have stroud and depth players. Kyle Williams would be fantastic as a rotational player. He's often overmatched though receiving as much playing time as he does. Spencer Johnson shows flashes few and far between. I guess they're giving McCargo another shot. At this point I'm not buying it. The sad fact is we lack players on the dline period with Stroud possibly being the strongest part moving foward Stroud/Schobel/Denney/Kelsay are all 30 and over. We need players across the board. I dont know why theres any kind of disagreement on this. Pass rush is still the far most important aspect to any good defense. Without it your defense is useless. Thus people considering defensive end a bigger need. I'd personally rank them relatively even. With a slight preference for upgrading the Defensive End spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I disagree, with Schobel coming back healthy and Ellis entering his second year I'd say a DT is a much bigger need. It was said last year that Stroud in the middle should make it easier on the DE's and I just don't think Stroud could do it alone. Another big run stuffing QB sacking guy in the middle of the line would be far more important in my book than a DE. I just looked around some stats. The greatest pass rushing interior lineman was Warren Sapp who had 96.5 career sacks over 13 seasons, an average of 7.42 sacks per season. He had 3 seasons of double-digit sacks. If we could find the next Warren Sapp that would be great. Many people around here would love to see B.J. Raji fall to us but the more sure route for adding a pass rusher is by getting a pass rushing defensive end or linebacker IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 It's really all about sacks. You're not going to get many from a DT no matter who he is. I wouldn't really say it's "all about sacks". It's all about pressuring the quarterback into making hasty/dumb decisions and getting a few sacks per game while you're at it. DTs don't get as many sacks because they can't approach the QB from the blindside (that's also why left defensive ends get more sacks than right defensive ends), but DTs CAN disrupt the pocket and decrease the amount of time the QB has to release the ball. They are also more important that DEs in a run stuffing capacity. Marcus Stround is good at both of those things, but unfortunately none of his line-mates is anywhere close to his level so he draws the double team almost every single time. That said, I think our talent at DT is better than our talent at DE and that a pass rushing DE is the biggest concern on our D-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 It's really all about sacks. You're not going to get many from a DT no matter who he is. Exactly! Your big guys in the middle of the line are mainly there to plug up the run and to force the play to the outside allowing your backers and ends to make plays. The guys in the middle are not going to rack up big sack numbers. It's really up to the DE's to pressure the QB. Pressure on the QB can result in MANY good things for the defense: 1. sack for loss of yards 2. forced fumble 3. interception 4. incomplete pass 5. and a VERY NERVOUS QB who starts worrying about his health instead of finding his receivers THAT's why a DE is critical. The fact is all 11 guys are critical as a team is only as strong as its weakest link. But pressure on the QB is essential to team success. Even an average QB can pick you apart when given the time and that's why we need a Bruce Smith-caliber DE and right away. We don't have any thing even close to a Smith on this team. The team that wins the turnover battle is statistically the team that ends up winning the game, and a DE is a key component in winning the turnover battle. That's the logic as I see it. The fact is you need a strong line all the way across. They feed on each other. A strong interior line occupies more blockers which frees up the DE's and vice-versa. Any major weakness will be exposed. I'll just say that if I could only be average in one area and super in another, I'd choose to be super at the DE position and average at the DT position, but, both are critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I disagree, with Schobel coming back healthy and Ellis entering his second year I'd say a DT is a much bigger need. It was said last year that Stroud in the middle should make it easier on the DE's and I just don't think Stroud could do it alone. Another big run stuffing QB sacking guy in the middle of the line would be far more important in my book than a DE. A good DT gives you run stopping ability - force teams to run laterally to the line of scrimmage, and on passing downs the ability to collapse the pocket so a QB has to step to the left or right or dump the ball off. Your good edge rushers should be able to bull rush tackles or slice or spin inside to get sacks or create fumbles - particularly where the QB has to side step because he can't step up to make a throw. An argument could be made that we lacked either ability last year. I would take a stud DT or an impact edge rusher. If we can land players for both positions in the draft then that would be great. I think that most folks feel that our interior D-Line is more ahead of the curve than all of our DEs, and the jury is still out on whether Schobel will come back full force. He is on the wrong side of 30 for durability - I hope that he has the same burst and can contribute for many more years, but HOPE is not a strategy. I do think that it is easier to find stud defensive tackles in the draft than impact edge rushers. A lot of the DEs in college project out to linebacker in the pros, some can't make the transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Yeah, I think the key is that we have one bona fide, excellent defensive tackle in Stroud. And with Royal, Dockery, and Preston gone, the most hated player on the team plays defensive end. Thus the pressure to replace Kelsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 The Bills have Ellis, Schobel, Denney and Kelsey at DE right now. At DT they have Stroud and... I'd rather see them go into the season with just the DE's they have now instead of just the DT's they have now. I just don't get the logic behind a DE being a bigger need than DT. JMO huhh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 It's really all about sacks. You're not going to get many from a DT no matter who he is. I wouldn't really say it's "all about sacks". It's all about pressuring the quarterback into making hasty/dumb decisions and getting a few sacks per game while you're at it. DTs don't get as many sacks because they can't approach the QB from the blindside (that's also why left defensive ends get more sacks than right defensive ends), but DTs CAN disrupt the pocket and decrease the amount of time the QB has to release the ball. They are also more important that DEs in a run stuffing capacity. Marcus Stround is good at both of those things, but unfortunately none of his line-mates is anywhere close to his level so he draws the double team almost every single time. That said, I think our talent at DT is better than our talent at DE and that a pass rushing DE is the biggest concern on our D-line. Well...it is all about pressures but if you look at it, pressures are correlated totally with sacks. For every sack there is a multiplier that if you used it over a large enough sample size, you would be able to calculate with great accuracy, the number of pressures. A player who has 15 sacks in a season probably had about 30 or more pressures for example. So when you say sacks, you're also implying pressures. By the way, Chris Ellis had 82 pressures in college, far more than any player in last year's draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaloha Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 The Bills have Ellis, Schobel, Denney and Kelsey at DE right now. At DT they have Stroud and... I'd rather see them go into the season with just the DE's they have now instead of just the DT's they have now. I just don't get the logic behind a DE being a bigger need than DT. JMO I agree....it won't be DE. May be a rush lb (orakpo, though he is really a de, cushing, Maybin) but with the 4 you mentioned, would be a waste. If they cut kelsay, may be possibiliity, but not if they keep him. Too many, too much $ tied up in them. Id love to see Raji. LOVE IT, but I think GB may take him ahead of us. I head good things about Jerry, but I don't know that much about him. Its either the above two, a rush lb or trade down for Pettigrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Well...it is all about pressures but if you look at it, pressures are correlated totally with sacks. For every sack there is a multiplier that if you used it over a large enough sample size, you would be able to calculate with great accuracy, the number of pressures. A player who has 15 sacks in a season probably had about 30 or more pressures for example. So when you say sacks, you're also implying pressures. By the way, Chris Ellis had 82 pressures in college, far more than any player in last year's draft. My point was that DTs can still be incredibly crucial to pass rushing, even though they don't pick up as many sacks. I believe the reason for that is that a DT can't blindside a quarterback for the most part. If a DT bursts through the line, makes the QB panic and throw an INT...it's just as valuable as a DE who stealthily running behind the QBs back and stripping the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 My point was that DTs can still be incredibly crucial to pass rushing, even though they don't pick up as many sacks. I believe the reason for that is that a DT can't blindside a quarterback for the most part. If a DT bursts through the line, makes the QB panic and throw an INT...it's just as valuable as a DE who stealthily running behind the QBs back and stripping the ball. I agree with you Sage. Two more aspects to our discussion: Pressures can result in incomplete passes and turnovers ( in this case, interceptions). Sacks can result in loss of down and distance, and turnovers (in this case fumbles and recoveries). But as you suggest, an interior defensive lineman can get into passing lanes and bat down passes (even without pressure) and make it harder for a quarterback to see the field. Anyways, pressures are important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Statistically the Bills were 22nd in run defense, both in yards surrendered per game and in yards per rush. Statistically the Bills were 28th in sacks and 27th in interceptions which most people view as a function of QB pressure. So statistically the argument favors pass rushers, not run stuffers, unless your argument is for a pass rushing interior lineman. I would love a great young DT OR a great young DE. Pulled basically the same stuff for 2007 and 2008. Just looking at the stats, I would say simply adding Stroud to the D-line greatly improved the run defense, but the pass rush re: sacks was just as bad this year, but in 2007 seemed to get more pressure re: INTS. Buffalo generated virtually no pass rush or pressure, sacks or INTS in 2008. 2008 ========================================== 14th total yards/game and 14th points/game 22nd rush yards/game and 21st rush yards/attempt 28th sacks/game 27th INTS/game 2007 ========================================== 31st total yards/game and 18th points/game 25th rush yards/game and 26th ruch yards/attempt 29th sacks/game Tied 10th INTS/game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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