erynthered Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 BTW, what did the translation say? MEGAFORTUNE LOTTERY INTERNATIONAL INTERNATIONAL PROMOTION/PRIZE AWARD DEPT. REF: MLI/231-ILGI0431/04 BATCH: IPD/17/096/PTNL RE: WINNING FINAL NOTIFICATION Sir/Madam, We are pleased to inform you of the result of the Lottery Winners International programs held on the 17th of January 2005. Your e-mail address attached to ticket number 20511465897-6291 with serial number 472-971103 drew lucky numbers 8-66-97-22-71-64 which consequently won in the 3rd category, you have therefore been approved for a sum pay out of US$ 500,000 000. (five hundred Thousand United States Dollars). CONGRATULATIONS!!! Due to mix up of some numbers and names, we ask that you keep your winning information very confidential till your claims has been processed and your prize/money Remitted toyou. This is part of our security protocol to avoid double claiming and unwarranted abuse of this program by some participants. All participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn from over 200,000,000 company and 300,000,000 individual email addresses and names from all over the world. This promotional program takes place annually. We hope with part of your winning you will take part in our next year USD10 million international lottery. To file for your claim, please contact our/your fiducial agent MR.PHILIP GERE of the, MECURY TRUST AGENT TEL: +31-621-488-708 FAX: +31-645-236-856 Email: philipgere900@netscape.net Note that all winning must be claimed not later than 3rd of February 2005. After this date all unclaimed, funds will be included in the next stake. Please note in order to avoid unnecessary delays and complications please remember to quote your reference number and batch numbers in all correspondence. Furthermore, should there be any change of address do inform our agent as soon as possible. Congratulations once more from our members of staff and thank you for being part of our promotional program. Note: Anybody under the age of 18 is automatically disqualified. Sincerely yours, Mrs Ellen Kloos, Lottery Coordinator . REPLY EMAIL TO philipgere900@netscape.net
tennesseeboy Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 No one is saying war is glamorous or appealing... its horrible. but unfortunatly sometimes necessary. The objective of war is to empose your will on the enemy to kill people and break things. it's not plesant. no kidding. been there. done that.
The Senator Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 Well before that, actually. Witness Cologne (1942) and Hamburg (1943). But the flip side of that "morale bombing" is that cities, as manufacturing and transportation centers, were arguably legitimate military targets (Dresden certainly was). It's important to note, too, that the American Eight Air Force in Europe never officially embraced any doctrine of "area bombing" - to the end, American bombers at least targeted individual industrial complexes rathern than whole neighborhoods (the fact that they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, and thus bombed neighborhoods anyway, is indisputable, but doesn't bely the intent.) Area bombing as American doctrine was specific to the Pacific (and as I understand it, specifically LeMay's decision). 'In air campaigns against Japan during World War II, LeMay abandoned the established policy of daylight, precision bombing. Instead, he loaded his B29's with firebombs and sent them out over Japanese cities during the night. As LeMay described it, the B29's "scorched, boiled and baked to death" some 300,000 people.' So Truman's decision to drop 'The Bomb' likely did save civilian lives. LeMay was a totally demented lunatic who advocated bombing Cuba AND Russia during the Bay of Pigs incident, and was pissed that JFK wouldn't do it. When I think of Lemay, I think of the Gen. Jack D. Ripper character in Dr. Strangelove. 'As head of SAC from 1948 to 1957, LeMay's first war plan - drawn up in 1949 - proposed delivering "the entire stockpile of atomic bombs in a single massive attack" -- dropping 133 atomic bombs on 70 cities within 30 days. By the end of his term, the SAC was on constant alert and ready to execute an all-out atomic attack at a moments notice.'
tennesseeboy Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 'In air campaigns against Japan during World War II, LeMay abandoned the established policy of daylight, precision bombing. Instead, he loaded his B29's with firebombs and sent them out over Japanese cities during the night. As LeMay described it, the B29's "scorched, boiled and baked to death" some 300,000 people Actually a goodly number were poached, fricasseed and, in some cases, fried.
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 'As head of SAC from 1948 to 1957, LeMay's first war plan - drawn up in 1949 - proposed delivering "the entire stockpile of atomic bombs in a single massive attack" -- dropping 133 atomic bombs on 70 cities within 30 days. By the end of his term, the SAC was on constant alert and ready to execute an all-out atomic attack at a moments notice.' whats wrong with that??
The Dean Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 So Truman's decision to drop 'The Bomb' likely did save civilian lives. I agree, it likely did.
DC Tom Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 'In air campaigns against Japan during World War II, LeMay abandoned the established policy of daylight, precision bombing. Instead, he loaded his B29's with firebombs and sent them out over Japanese cities during the night. As LeMay described it, the B29's "scorched, boiled and baked to death" some 300,000 people Actually a goodly number were poached, fricasseed and, in some cases, fried. Scary thing is you're not even exaggerating. In the Tokyo raid, people jumped into ponds or water tanks to escape the flames, and were literally boiled to death as a result. In Hamburg, in 1943, people were found embedded in the streets. The heat from the firestorm was so intense, it melted the blacktop; people trying to escape died and got stuck in the blacktop when it cooled (hopefully in that order). Really, if I had to choose between the Hamburg firestorm or Nagasaki...I'd probably choose Nagasaki, as I'd rather be incinerated quickly. Bottom line is that war sucks a whole lot.
The Senator Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 Scary thing is you're not even exaggerating. In the Tokyo raid, people jumped into ponds or water tanks to escape the flames, and were literally boiled to death as a result. In Hamburg, in 1943, people were found embedded in the streets. The heat from the firestorm was so intense, it melted the blacktop; people trying to escape died and got stuck in the blacktop when it cooled (hopefully in that order). Really, if I had to choose between the Hamburg firestorm or Nagasaki...I'd probably choose Nagasaki, as I'd rather be incinerated quickly. Bottom line is that war sucks a whole lot. Given a choice, I would - and I think most would - definitely choose instant vaporization over a slow, agonizing death by fire.
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 Given a choice, I would - and I think most would - definitely choose instant vaporization over a slow, agonizing death by fire. How about radiation induced cancer?
The Senator Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 How about radiation induced cancer? How about it?
The Dean Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 How about radiation induced cancer? I didn't want to prolong the discussion, but you bring up a point that is neglected, I think, in many of the discussions. Most of the other methods of warfare kill people (and maim them, to be sure), but they don't have the same kind of generational impact on the population. Also, atomic weapons have a greater negative long-term impact on the "battleground" than do most other kinds of warfare. I think you can make the argument that Truman probably made the best decision he could make, at the time, given the situation. Still I would say it is a day for contemplation, and not celebration.
Steely Dan Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 Well before that, actually. Witness Cologne (1942) and Hamburg (1943). But the flip side of that "morale bombing" is that cities, as manufacturing and transportation centers, were arguably legitimate military targets (Dresden certainly was). It's important to note, too, that the American Eight Air Force in Europe never officially embraced any doctrine of "area bombing" - to the end, American bombers at least targeted individual industrial complexes rathern than whole neighborhoods (the fact that they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, and thus bombed neighborhoods anyway, is indisputable, but doesn't bely the intent.) Area bombing as American doctrine was specific to the Pacific (and as I understand it, specifically LeMay's decision). Cologne and Hamburg? Sounds like barbecue at Calvin Klein's. "Steely Dan Sucks Exhaust Pipes" Believe it or not I actually had a job as a tailpipe on a city bus for awhile. I quit because everyday I'd come home exhausted. "Make easy money at home. Send 200 yen for details." I have a yen to add you to my ignore list for that bomb of a joke. MEGAFORTUNE LOTTERY INTERNATIONALINTERNATIONAL PROMOTION/PRIZE AWARD DEPT. REF: MLI/231-ILGI0431/04 BATCH: IPD/17/096/PTNL RE: WINNING FINAL NOTIFICATION Sir/Madam, We are pleased to inform you of the result of the Lottery Winners International programs held on the 17th of January 2005. Your e-mail address attached to ticket number 20511465897-6291 with serial number 472-971103 drew lucky numbers 8-66-97-22-71-64 which consequently won in the 3rd category, you have therefore been approved for a sum pay out of US$ 500,000 000. (five hundred Thousand United States Dollars). CONGRATULATIONS!!! Due to mix up of some numbers and names, we ask that you keep your winning information very confidential till your claims has been processed and your prize/money Remitted toyou. This is part of our security protocol to avoid double claiming and unwarranted abuse of this program by some participants. All participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn from over 200,000,000 company and 300,000,000 individual email addresses and names from all over the world. This promotional program takes place annually. We hope with part of your winning you will take part in our next year USD10 million international lottery. To file for your claim, please contact our/your fiducial agent MR.PHILIP GERE of the, MECURY TRUST AGENT TEL: +31-621-488-708 FAX: +31-645-236-856 Email: philipgere900@netscape.net Note that all winning must be claimed not later than 3rd of February 2005. After this date all unclaimed, funds will be included in the next stake. Please note in order to avoid unnecessary delays and complications please remember to quote your reference number and batch numbers in all correspondence. Furthermore, should there be any change of address do inform our agent as soon as possible. Congratulations once more from our members of staff and thank you for being part of our promotional program. Note: Anybody under the age of 18 is automatically disqualified. Sincerely yours, Mrs Ellen Kloos, Lottery Coordinator . REPLY EMAIL TO philipgere900@netscape.net Got everything right except the year and a Japanese signature. Given a choice, I would - and I think most would - definitely choose instant vaporization over a slow, agonizing death by fire. If that's true then why are we Bills fans?
The Senator Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 I didn't want to prolong the discussion, but you bring up a point that is neglected, I think, in many of the discussions. Most of the other methods of warfare kill people (and maim them, to be sure), but they don't have the same kind of generational impact on the population. Also, atomic weapons have a greater negative long-term impact on the "battleground" than do most other kinds of warfare. I think you can make the argument that Truman probably made the best decision he could make, at the time, given the situation. Still I would say it is a day for contemplation, and not celebration. Agreed - but, at the time, no one knew of the long-term impact of atomic warfare, and there was no sympathy for the Japanese, civilian or otherwise. An unprovoked Sunday morning attack on a sleepy Pearl Harbor and a long, brutal war in the Pacific theater had anti-Japan sentiment at a fever-pitch... Link (These days, of course, it's the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids that threatens the planet with nucular annihilation. )
DC Tom Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 I didn't want to prolong the discussion, but you bring up a point that is neglected, I think, in many of the discussions. Most of the other methods of warfare kill people (and maim them, to be sure), but they don't have the same kind of generational impact on the population. Also, atomic weapons have a greater negative long-term impact on the "battleground" than do most other kinds of warfare. I think you can make the argument that Truman probably made the best decision he could make, at the time, given the situation. Still I would say it is a day for contemplation, and not celebration. Given that people are living at Hiroshima today, I'd say the long-term impact of a single nuclear weapon isn't nearly as bad as people tend to expect. Two other important points on the subject, though: first, the casualties at Hiroshima and Nagasaki have a tendency (that I disagree with) to be counted differently because of the use of nuclear weapons. There's been a trend to count anyone from either city who died at any point after the bombing from an unusual medical cause as a "bomb death", no matter how long afterward it was. The commonly accepted death toll at Hiroshima actually increases with time (I believe it's up to 200k now, even though "only" some 80k were killed in the initial blast, according to contemporary records). The equivalent would be to count citizens of Hamburg who die of respiratory problems in the 1970's as victims of the Hamburg firebombing, on the principle that the soot from the fires caused the respiratory illness... Which brings me to my second point: who says conventional bombing of the time didn't cause long-term health effects? How many years does a burn victim have taken off their life for surviving horrible burns?
Dan Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 I would suggest the much the difference of opinion is just perception. For example, Firebombing is less bad because it's 100's or 1,000's of bombs dropped over the course of hours and I can hide in the cellar and still survive. An atomic bomb, on the other hand, is a single bombed that in an instant completely incinerates an entire city. Hence, I'll take my chances with the "traditional" bombs because they're not as devastating. Not saying any of that is true - just saying that is likely many people's perceptions.
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 I would suggest the much the difference of opinion is just perception. For example, Firebombing is less bad because it's 100's or 1,000's of bombs dropped over the course of hours and I can hide in the cellar and still survive. An atomic bomb, on the other hand, is a single bombed that in an instant completely incinerates an entire city. Hence, I'll take my chances with the "traditional" bombs because they're not as devastating. Not saying any of that is true - just saying that is likely many people's perceptions. ehh i agree with what your trying to say but i dont think you fully understand how damaging and violent the firebombing was. picture (in japan) 200 b-29's each dropping 20,000 lbs of high explosive incendary fire bombs onto a dense populated city built of wood framed structures. or (in germany) 1000 b17's each dropping about 8000 lbs of fire bombs. its going to be a realllly bad day. you cannot hide in your basement from a firestorm. If you are in the wrong part of town it doesnt matter where you are, you are not survivng by hiding in your basement.
MarkyMannn Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 Great story sorry to hear your dad passed on. If he was Okinawa then he did his part for sure in the war. BTW, what did the translation say? Go Bills, and take the Sabres with you I don't have it, but I know it was all personally related to the Jap soldier
The Dean Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 its going to be a realllly bad day. you cannot hide in your basement from a firestorm. If you are in the wrong part of town it doesnt matter where you are, you are not survivng by hiding in your basement. With the A-Bomb, it didn't matter what part of town you were in. I think that's what he was trying to say.
DC Tom Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 ehh i agree with what your trying to say but i dont think you fully understand how damaging and violent the firebombing was. picture (in japan) 200 b-29's each dropping 20,000 lbs of high explosive incendary fire bombs onto a dense populated city built of wood framed structures. or (in germany) 1000 b17's each dropping about 8000 lbs of fire bombs. its going to be a realllly bad day. you cannot hide in your basement from a firestorm. If you are in the wrong part of town it doesnt matter where you are, you are not survivng by hiding in your basement. More like 800 planes and 4k pounds of high explosives (8 500lb bombs, typically) in Europe - again, the Air Force's doctine in Europe was precision bombing, and although they couldn't execute it, their loadouts reflect the doctrine. Incendiaries were used, but weren't prevalent. And usually, of those 800 planes, they were committed between half a dozen different targets - flying 250 B-17s against a single target (such as against the Dresden railyards) would have been a heavy raid. More typical were 90-150 bombers against a single target. RAF Bomber Command did far more damage with area bombing. Their loadouts two or three times as large per plane than American planes, and were planned specifically for fire-starting: 2-ton "cookies" to blast off the roofs and windows of buildings, and a hell of a lot of incendiary clusters to set fire to the interior. And Bomber Command raids tended to concentrate against one target - 500 planes dropping 2000 tons of incendiaries on a single city in a 45-minute time span would be a typical Bomber Command night, compared to a typical day for the US Air Forces of 800 planes dropping 1600 tons of high explosives on six different targets.
DC Tom Posted February 24, 2009 Posted February 24, 2009 With the A-Bomb, it didn't matter what part of town you were in. I think that's what he was trying to say. It really did, especially with those bombs (which were "small" as nuclear weapons go). Nagasaki, in particular...the lay of the land - hills and such - reflected blast waves in unpredictable ways that left certain parts of the city untouched that were theoretically inside the blast radius.
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