Alaska Darin Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 BTW - I mean this with all seriousness .. not trying to provoke... but outside of recreation and protection what other legitimate uses (or reasons to posess) of guns? "Protection and Recreation" are pretty broad definitions. What more clarification would you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 "Protection and Recreation" are pretty broad definitions. What more clarification would you need? Never mind .. goes to the interpretaion of one of your earlier comments. Your response actually answers the question for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Be glad. I was looking forward to watching you get gutted like a fish. "Nearly" automatic weapons? Have you even seen a gun before? Darin may as well have been arguing with crayonz... I think thats the word liberals use for semi automatic rifle's.Its not always clear when your main source of information is Oprah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBinVA Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 In D.C. you can get arrested for unregistered ammo already. Don't ask me how or what that means but it happened not to long ago near the White House. google it, cuz I'm going to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I thought that there would be common ground for the removal of or severe punishment of people who illegally use or posess guns. I've said all along I have no issue with thise who legally posess and use them. People don't necessarily dispute that. Something I've always said (but no one ever pays attention to me anyway) is that with any right to something comes the persona responsibility to exercise the right properly. That goes for the right to vote (i.e. it's your responsibility to punch the hole COMPLETELY THROUGH the ballot, Florida residents), the right to free speech (i.e. leave the funerals of private citizens alone, Fred Phelps), and the right to gun ownership. What you're really arguing against isn't the right to own guns, it's the right to irresponsibly own guns. To which I say...well, yeah. Frickin' duh. Not even the NRA disputes that (and they do more to promote responsible gun ownership than any rabid anti-gun activist you've ever heard of). Where I perhaps hit a nerve was by extending the issue to question the need to use guns for purposes other than recreation or protection. I'd add "collectibles" - I wouldn't mind owning an authentic historical item such as a Luger, or Colt Peacemaker (or even the 100th Anniversary reproduction of the Winchester Rifle that my house's previous owner had displayed over the fireplace.) But I suppose "collecting" falls under "recreation". Really, like Darin said..."recreation" and "protection" are awfully broad. Only other two reasons I can think to own a gun are "food", and "crime". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede316 Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I'll throw my two cents in to BuffaloBill...Just remember the Police are there to try and protect you and to investigate crime. Your well being is your responsibilty not the police departments. If some thug was breaking into your house at 2am who would you rather rely on? Yourself or the police? I know who I'm relying on..Me and my .45 The cops can investigate afterwards. BTW I didn't see the aforementioned article but did find this: http://southflorida.metromix.com/events/ph.../962113/content Oh yea!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dib Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 BTW I didn't see the aforementioned article but did find this: http://southflorida.metromix.com/events/ph.../962113/content Oh yea!! shouldnt hooters girls actually have hooters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 People don't necessarily dispute that. Something I've always said (but no one ever pays attention to me anyway) is that with any right to something comes the persona responsibility to exercise the right properly. That goes for the right to vote (i.e. it's your responsibility to punch the hole COMPLETELY THROUGH the ballot, Florida residents), the right to free speech (i.e. leave the funerals of private citizens alone, Fred Phelps), and the right to gun ownership. What you're really arguing against isn't the right to own guns, it's the right to irresponsibly own guns. DC this gets to the heart of my issue. I have a real problem with criminals using weapons in the commission of crimes, gang bangers carrying out gang wars or lunatics walking into schools with guns. I've said all along I understand, respect and support people that to your point use and posess guns legally and responsibly. Another way of putting it is to say if you can answer affirmatively to the following questions then I have no issue with what you are doing: Do you own guns that were legally manufactured or imported to the United States and have not been illegally modified? Have you obtained a proper license for each of your guns? Do you store your guns and ammunition in a way that prevents unintended discharge by anyone or accidental use by a child? Have you been properly trained to carry and use your guns? If you have children / minors that will use your guns have you taken the responsibility to ensure they know how to do so safely and responsibly? If you wish to (for whatever reason) reliquish ownership of your gun(s) do you do so in a way that is both legal and responsible? Do you fire your gun(s) only when legal to do so and even beyond the letter of the law when common sense and training would indicate that it is safe and proper to do so? Obviously the idiot(s) who ended up randomly shooting (at least upon the currently known facts) the janitor in the mall here about a week or so ago that prompted me to think about this issue are likley to fail on several of the above and will no doubt fail on at least one. Based on the story I really feel for the guys family. He was apparently a hard working decent individual who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most likely shot by stupid kids that were trying to break out windows or just trying to prove they were "cool" by shooting guns randomly into a building. Also keep in mind it has been my "liberal" position (funny how this came up because I have never been accused of that one before) that if you can't answer affirmatively to the list above your punishment for the illegal use or discharge of a gun should be very severe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 http://virginiashootingsportsassociation.b...mmo-import.html Who knows how true any of these rumors are? http://www.shootingwire.com/ Scroll down to the Politics and Pistols section. Sounds like if it was true, even the Canadian gun owners yelled loudly enough that it's being rethought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzaloha Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 To me that's the sensible thing to do - within reason. For example, a buddy of mine had a brother who got 7 years for shooting a guy who was beating the sh-- out of him. The reason? An unregistered firearm. So it's perfectly acceptable to for someone to beat you within an inch of your life because you didn't cross every bureaucratic "T" and dot every "I". That's the stuff I have problem with. Idiots who shoot innocent people standing around in a mall? Death by bunga-bunga. Yepper. Your scenario here says it all. Your buddy's bro with unregistered firearm. Why is that, why does he have an unregistered gun MR. NRA??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I'll throw my two cents in to BuffaloBill...Just remember the Police are there to try and protect you and to investigate crime. Your well being is your responsibilty not the police departments. If some thug was breaking into your house at 2am who would you rather rely on? Yourself or the police? I know who I'm relying on..Me and my .45 The cops can investigate afterwards. BTW I didn't see the aforementioned article but did find this: http://southflorida.metromix.com/events/ph.../962113/content Oh yea!! One, I am fortunate that I do live in an area that is less prone to crime. However, to play along let's assume some ahole does find his way into my house at 2:00 AM and for fun's sake let's also assume that the alarm system in the house does not go off (In spite of the first statement my homewners insurance gives me a break larger than the cost of the alarm service - also covers fire - so why not have it). My situation is also easier in that - my house is a one story and two I do not have kids to worry about. So my first inclination will be to quietly gather up my wife make it out the back door to a neighbor's and call the cops from my cell which is always next to the bed at night. Now let's make the situation a little more difficult - let's assume the ahole makes it to our bedroom without me being aware. Say the jerk is even lucky enough to turn on a light so he can see. This is where I have to take my chances and rely on my brain. My first inclination is to let the guy know that the cops are on the way (may or may not be true) becuse he has triggered the house alarm. My suggestion to him is then to gather any items he wants and to get the hell out while he still has a chance to do so. I also assess my chances of being able to take the guy down or to make it out of my house safely. (Is he alone, high, armed, etc). If the bastard kills me and my wife then I take my chances with the good Lord hoping that I have really lived a decent life and assume this is how he has elected for me to depart this world. Not my choice but at the end do any of us have a choice? I know in this scenario you would much prefer to grab your gun and just shoot the bastard .. so be it. Nothing I have said all along stops you from doing so. If you want guns in your home make sure they are legal and registered etc - see other post - then I have no issue with your line of thinking. Keep in mind, that while maybe not true in your case, stats show that a gun in your home is more likely to be turned against you in this scenario than it is to be used to run the ahole off. I keep saying the issue that I have is with people who illegally use or posess guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Your scenario here says it all. Your buddy's bro with unregistered firearm. Why is that, why does he have an unregistered gun MR. NRA??? Your response does nothing but provoke ill will. I have no doubt that if someone was beating you to death and you had the opportunity to defend yourself you would do so. Maybe the guy should pay a very small fine or receive some minor punishment for failing to register the gun but not much else in my opinion. Perhaps you should simply have asked what prevented the individual from registering the gun before you jump to conclusions. Maybe he knew his life was threatened and he was desperate - who knows? You object to the NRA and its positions then fine. You cross a very different threshold when you suggest that someone’s friend should simply have been beaten to death when he had the opportunity to save his own life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 One, I am fortunate that I do live in an area that is less prone to crime. However, to play along let's assume some ahole does find his way into my house at 2:00 AM and for fun's sake let's also assume that the alarm system in the house does not go off (In spite of the first statement my homewners insurance gives me a break larger than the cost of the alarm service - also covers fire - so why not have it). My situation is also easier in that - my house is a one story and two I do not have kids to worry about. So my first inclination will be to quietly gather up my wife make it out the back door to a neighbor's and call the cops from my cell which is always next to the bed at night. Now let's make the situation a little more difficult - let's assume the ahole makes it to our bedroom without me being aware. Say the jerk is even lucky enough to turn on a light so he can see. This is where I have to take my chances and rely on my brain. My first inclination is to let the guy know that the cops are on the way (may or may not be true) becuse he has triggered the house alarm. My suggestion to him is then to gather any items he wants and to get the hell out while he still has a chance to do so. I also assess my chances of being able to take the guy down or to make it out of my house safely. (Is he alone, high, armed, etc). If the bastard kills me and my wife then I take my chances with the good Lord hoping that I have really lived a decent life and assume this is how he has elected for me to depart this world. Not my choice but at the end do any of us have a choice? I know in this scenario you would much prefer to grab your gun and just shoot the bastard .. so be it. Nothing I have said all along stops you from doing so. If you want guns in your home make sure they are legal and registered etc - see other post - then I have no issue with your line of thinking. Keep in mind, that while maybe not true in your case, stats show that a gun in your home is more likely to be turned against you in this scenario than it is to be used to run the ahole off. I keep saying the issue that I have is with people who illegally use or posess guns. Lot of assumptions in your scenario. Hopefully this never happens to you, because I'm not sure the criminal will be so willing to follow this script. For my own curiosity: Are you suggesting that all states have registration laws, or that if one does, then people should comply with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Lot of assumptions in your scenario. Hopefully this never happens to you, because I'm not sure the criminal will be so willing to follow this script. Never has happened to me in the 44 years I have lived - growing up we never locked our doors and thought nothing about leaving keys in cars and tractors - if they were missing when you got home you assumed that the neighbor borrowed it and would return it in equal if not better shape - which was always the case. I do live in a different world today so I am not quite as open. Hopefully for you "your script" whatever it may be also holds true. Whether you know it or not you also make a lot of assumptions when you believe that having a gun automatically keeps you and your family safe. For my own curiosity:Are you suggesting that all states have registration laws, or that if one does, then people should comply with it? I have no idea whether all states require registration (nor do I care) and yes if they do then your gun(s) should be registered otherwise you possess and potentially use them illegally in that state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Never has happened to me in the 44 years I have lived - growing up we never locked our doors and thought nothing about leaving keys in cars and tractors - if they were missing when you got home you assumed that the neighbor borrowed it and would return it in equal if not better shape - which was always the case. I do live in a different world today so I am not quite as open. Hopefully for you "your script" whatever it may be also holds true. Whether you know it or not you also make a lot of assumptions when you believe that having a gun automatically keeps you and your family safe. If someone breaks into my house at night, the only assumption I'll make is that they have the worst intentions possible. I'd love to be able to get my family out without a confrontation, but I can't assume he didn't come in the back door, or that there is only 1 of him, or they're not high or on meth, or they're not armed or that they can be reasoned with or anything else that may make that plan impossible. A gun is just one of the many tools that I have to make myself and my family as safe as possible. Alarm, deadbolts, phone, proper training, dog, night lights etc...are all other tools. No tool will guarantee my safety, but I'd rather be ready with the appropriate tool at the appropriate time instead of left wishing I'd been more prepared. Just as I don't assume a gun automatically makes me safe, I don't assume a dead bolt or cell phone or back door will automatically keep me safe either. I have no idea whether all states require registration (nor do I care) and yes if they do then your gun(s) should be registered otherwise you possess and potentially use them illegally in that state. Just checking on what you were trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Your scenario here says it all. Your buddy's bro with unregistered firearm. Why is that, why does he have an unregistered gun MR. NRA??? Perhaps he lived in a city that did not allow him his 2nd amendment rights? If NY made gun ownership illegal, I would own many illegal firearms. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 If someone breaks into my house at night, the only assumption I'll make is that they have the worst intentions possible. I'd love to be able to get my family out without a confrontation, but I can't assume he didn't come in the back door, or that there is only 1 of him, or they're not high or on meth, or they're not armed or that they can be reasoned with or anything else that may make that plan impossible. A gun is just one of the many tools that I have to make myself and my family as safe as possible. Alarm, deadbolts, phone, proper training, dog, night lights etc...are all other tools. No tool will guarantee my safety, but I'd rather be ready with the appropriate tool at the appropriate time instead of left wishing I'd been more prepared. Just as I don't assume a gun automatically makes me safe, I don't assume a dead bolt or cell phone or back door will automatically keep me safe either. Based on what you have said the only significant difference in our assumptions is having a gun. As I said earlier I can respect your right to have one if it is legal. Keep in mind my earlier response was to a hypothetical situation. Part of my "protection" is that I am fortunate enough to live in a nice area that is relatively crime free. My house is alarmed. My subdivision is not one that is easy to access or get out of if you do not know where you are going and while my house is "nice" there is nothing about it that would inherently attract a criminal. We are very selective about who enters the house (say to have work done) and we do little, probably nothing, to provoke anyone in such a way they would want to "attack" us. To your point(s) at the end of the day your brain is your best weapon. I applaud you for using yours in an effort to be prepared to protect yourself and your family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 When I had a Japanese girlfriend I admired the fact that you (she) could walk around the streets of Tokyo at any time of the day or night and not fear being harmed. People there are so adverse to guns that there was a block in the Omotosando district where people would not go because someone had been killed by gunfire about twenty years before. Did you also only stay in areas where Americans roamed? You walk into the wrong area of Tokyo and you face the wrath of assorted knives and meat cleavers. If it's not one thing, it's another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede316 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Keep in mind my earlier response was to a hypothetical situation. Part of my "protection" is that I am fortunate enough to live in a nice area that is relatively crime free. My house is alarmed. My subdivision is not one that is easy to access or get out of if you do not know where you are going and while my house is "nice" there is nothing about it that would inherently attract a criminal. We are very selective about who enters the house (say to have work done) and we do little, probably nothing, to provoke anyone in such a way they would want to "attack" us. I'm also fortunate to live in a "nice" area but my situation was not hypothetical. I live on the golf course here and one night a couple Aboriginal kids decided to hop the fence and try and break in. Luckily my dog went nuts and they ran off. Fortunately I didn't have to resort to taking my weapon out of the safe and defend myself...but I was ready to. You never know. The old saying "better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have one." rings true. You are living in dreamland if you think you think that someone wouldn't enter your house because you didn't provoke them. You seem to be affluent...that's reason enough. Hopefully you will never face my situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Did you also only stay in areas where Americans roamed? You walk into the wrong area of Tokyo and you face the wrath of assorted knives and meat cleavers. If it's not one thing, it's another. No i have been all over Tokyo .. to your point there are sections considered less safe but generally speaking they are far smaller and less problematic than big US cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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