Need is at Tightend NOT WR, we do not even use the WR's we have

[Chuckknox]

Do not waste any $$ on a WR unless we plan to change our QB. We do not even look downfield, so let's just upgrade where Edwards likes to throw.

 

Spend $$ on defense and center in FA.

[Alphadawg7]

Do not waste any $$ on a WR unless we plan to change our QB. We do not even look downfield, so let's just upgrade where Edwards likes to throw.

 

Spend $$ on defense and center in FA.

 

[DrFishfinder]

Do not waste any $$ on a WR unless we plan to change our QB. We do not even look downfield, so let's just upgrade where Edwards likes to throw.

 

Spend $$ on defense and center in FA.

Unless the Bills get another WR that can pull the double coverage off of Evans, we are never going to find out if Edwards can throw past 15-20 yards.

 

That being said, I think a legitimate pass-catching TE would be a big plus for the offense.

[Alphadawg7]

Unless the Bills get another WR that can pull the double coverage off of Evans, we are never going to find out if Edwards can throw past 15-20 yards.

 

That being said, I think a legitimate pass-catching TE would be a big plus for the offense.

 

What about the other WR's standing running wide open that Trent doesnt see because he checks down as his read progression is still pretty poor?

 

Our WR's seem worse because Trent has yet to develop enough to utilize them...so unless we bring in a Boldin, TJ, etc type player, our WR core is fine...Tight End is a bigger need, especially given Trents comfort in looking in the shorter zones...

[BuffaloBill]

Disagree from the WR standpoint:

 

Hardy unproven and hurt - we have no idea what we have here

Justin Jenkins is a st'er only

Parrish - please - he has had five years in the league and done nothing as a WR (anther St'er only)

 

 

This means half our depth at WR is unproven or special teams only. Add to this Reed is not getting any younger. Johnson may (and I know many in this board are in man love with the dude) but still only may be an answer. Even if he is, if he, Evans or Reed gets hurt (a likely scenario that one will during the course of a season) what are we left with?

 

WR is definately a need on this team.

 

Personally, for what it is worth I think Parrish should be traded to free up a roster spot and Hardy is likey to be on IR this upcoming season.

[Alphadawg7]

Disagree from the WR standpoint:

 

Hardy unproven and hurt - we have no idea what we have here

Justin Jenkins is a st'er only

Parrish - please - he has had five years in the league and done nothing as a WR (anther St'er only)

 

 

This means half our depth at WR is unproven or special teams only. Add to this Reed is not getting any younger. Johnson may (and I know many in this board are in man love with the dude) but still only may be an answer. Even if he is, if he, Evans or Reed gets hurt (a likely scenario that one will during the course of a season) what are we left with?

 

WR is definately a need on this team.

 

Personally, for what it is worth I think Parrish should be traded to free up a roster spot and Hardy is likey to be on IR this upcoming season.

 

You make a good case, and have a good point actually. A WR for depth would be good given your case here, but I just dont want to see some bumb like a Bryant, Porter, Williams, etc come in and hold up Johnsons development. Johnson should be no lower than the #3 guy this year...hopefully he can even step up and become our #2, but he should be at the least be our #3.

 

Of course, if we can get a top caliber WR like Boldin or TJ, then by all means, that would be sick...

[Andrew Mills]

Do not waste any $$ on a WR unless we plan to change our QB. We do not even look downfield, so let's just upgrade where Edwards likes to throw.

 

Spend $$ on defense and center in FA.

 

So do you propose that we draft a TE or sign on in FA?

 

LJ Smith, Owen Daniels and Leonard Pope are all available...

 

If we could sign someone like Pope we could go after DE in the first round... sounds good to me.

[Tcali]

Do not waste any $$ on a WR unless we plan to change our QB. We do not even look downfield, so let's just upgrade where Edwards likes to throw.

 

Spend $$ on defense and center in FA.

makes sense...well said

[ans4e64]

Do not waste any $$ on a WR unless we plan to change our QB. We do not even look downfield, so let's just upgrade where Edwards likes to throw.

 

Spend $$ on defense and center in FA.

 

So we use the TE now? "Where he likes to throw"... since when do we like to throw to the TE?

[lets_go_bills]

So we use the TE now? "Where he likes to throw"... since when do we like to throw to the TE?

 

Royal caught 33 balls. But he drops half of them, so (do some math, carry the 9), he had 66 balls thrown his way. Therefore, a pass catching TE is a huge need.

[reddogblitz]

Unless the Bills get another WR that can pull the double coverage off of Evans, we are never going to find out if Edwards can throw past 15-20 yards.

 

That being said, I think a legitimate pass-catching TE would be a big plus for the offense.

 

Lee Evans was able to get open deep against the Cardinals for some reason.

 

He was also open against Seattle and other teams early in the season before Trent went into this funk.

 

Not buying it that guys can't get open.

[H2o]

So we use the TE now? "Where he likes to throw"... since when do we like to throw to the TE?

My thoughts exactly. We all know that we need an upgrade at the TE position. Royal doesn't cut it really at any phase of the game. TrINT needs to learn to trust his reads and get the ball out downfield to the WR's. If he can't read the defense to know where the open man is going to be get him out of there. He's playing scared back in the poscket. We might be better off drafting Percy Harvin for the simple fact that he douled as a RB and a WR. Then atleast we could say that TrINT is somewhat getting the ball to a WR, even if he ligns up in the backfield. If our afeminado QB doesn't learn to get the ball to a WR 15-20 yards down the field what makes you think he will get it out to the TE 10-15 yars down the field? We keep circling around back to the same principle, find the opening in the defense where your man is going to be and throw the ball to that spot. Trust your guys on the field with you or go frolic in a valley somewhere.

[Magox]

My thoughts exactly. We all know that we need an upgrade at the TE position. Royal doesn't cut it really at any phase of the game. TrINT needs to learn to trust his reads and get the ball out downfield to the WR's. If he can't read the defense to know where the open man is going to be get him out of there. He's playing scared back in the poscket. We might be better off drafting Percy Harvin for the simple fact that he douled as a RB and a WR. Then atleast we could say that TrINT is somewhat getting the ball to a WR, even if he ligns up in the backfield. If our afeminado QB doesn't learn to get the ball to a WR 15-20 yards down the field what makes you think he will get it out to the TE 10-15 yars down the field? We keep circling around back to the same principle, find the opening in the defense where your man is going to be and throw the ball to that spot. Trust your guys on the field with you or go frolic in a valley somewhere.

h20, your way too negative on Trent, and why do you call him TrINT all the time? I mean, I understand that by inserting the INT you are implying interception, but he hasnt thrown a lot of interceptions in his career. He has thrown less than 1 interception per game that he has played in which is better than what most quarterbacks do. If you want me to, I can provide stats on lots of good quarterbacks with a much worse history of doing that. Also did you know that his qb rating is higher than most qb's in their first 20 games of their careers? not just by a little bit, but by a pretty healthy margin, not to mention that he has a winning record on a losing team's record. I just don't understand all this criticism.

 

Before I ever came this message board, my brother and I always talked about the Bills and their weak points and etc. and never ever once was Trent mentioned as a possible weak point. I'm glad that the Bills Brass and most football announcers and experts feel the same way.

 

Plus I hear some peoople here like yourself say, that people are open all the time and he isn't able to find the open reciever. I watched every game as I'm sure you have, but there is no way to know that. Sure on some particular plays there is, but no where near as much as what you have claimed. You know as well as I do that we are not equipped to be able to know that. As a matter of fact, just about every announcer praises his ability to survey the field and progress for such a young quarterback. You say that he looks scared in the pocket? How in the world do you come to that conclusion? one of his strong points is the way he stand tall in the pocket. Some times when I read some of these negative posts on Trent, I wonder if people are watching the same game I am. You and a few others are the only one's who see it that way.

 

 

 

Going back to topic, the basis of your argument, without any disrespect, is off. That he is not able to throw it 15-20 yards. I mean come on!?!?! are you serious? You and I both know that he can throw that pass. We have seen it many times before, and if you say that you havn't seen it that much, then you have blocked it out of your memory. Cuz it has happened, Many times.

 

A Good quality TE would be a great addition to this team. There is no doubt that TE doesn't have a gun for an arm, but he has a better arm then what you give him credit for. The mid range passes is where he is at his best. So a good TE I believe would be a perfect fit for this team.

 

You have lots of good info and I respect some of the insight you bring up, but there is no doubt, that you are waaaay too negative on Trent. He is a young quarterback, who doesn't even have two full seasons behind him, and he has a very respectable qb rating, winning record on a losing team, that has shown poise and promise.

 

 

 

Any way, I know that my words are not going to change the way you feel, you have seemed to have all ready made up your mind.

[H2o]

1- h20, your way too negative on Trent, and why do you call him TrINT all the time? I mean, I understand that by inserting the INT you are implying interception, but he hasnt thrown a lot of interceptions in his career. He has thrown less than 1 interception per game that he has played in which is better than what most quarterbacks do. If you want me to, 2- I can provide stats on lots of good quarterbacks with a much worse history of doing that. Also did you know that his qb rating is higher than most qb's in their first 20 games of their careers? not just by a little bit, but by a pretty healthy margin, not to mention that he has a winning record on a losing team's record. I just don't understand all this criticism.

 

3-Before I ever came this message board, my brother and I always talked about the Bills and their weak points and etc. and never ever once was Trent mentioned as a possible weak point. I'm glad that the Bills Brass and most football announcers and experts feel the same way.

 

4-Plus I hear some peoople here like yourself say, that people are open all the time and he isn't able to find the open reciever. I watched every game as I'm sure you have, but there is no way to know that. Sure on some particular plays there is, but no where near as much as what you have claimed. You know as well as I do that we are not equipped to be able to know that. As a matter of fact, just about every announcer praises his ability to survey the field and progress for such a young quarterback. 5-You say that he looks scared in the pocket? How in the world do you come to that conclusion? one of his strong points is the way he stand tall in the pocket. Some times when I read some of these negative posts on Trent, I wonder if people are watching the same game I am. You and a few others are the only one's who see it that way.

 

 

 

6- Going back to topic, the basis of your argument, without any disrespect, is off. That he is not able to throw it 15-20 yards. I mean come on!?!?! are you serious? You and I both know that he can throw that pass. We have seen it many times before, and if you say that you havn't seen it that much, then you have blocked it out of your memory. Cuz it has happened, Many times.

 

7- A Good quality TE would be a great addition to this team. There is no doubt that TE doesn't have a gun for an arm, but he has a better arm then what you give him credit for. The mid range passes is where he is at his best. So a good TE I believe would be a perfect fit for this team.

 

8- You have lots of good info and I respect some of the insight you bring up, but there is no doubt, that you are waaaay too negative on Trent. He is a young quarterback, who doesn't even have two full seasons behind him, and he has a very respectable qb rating, winning record on a losing team, that has shown poise and promise.

 

 

 

Any way, I know that my words are not going to change the way you feel, you have seemed to have all ready made up your mind.

1- I started calling him TrINT after the Cleveland game that was basically lost in the 1st quarter even though Lindell eventually played the role of "goat" in the end.

 

2- Edwards passer rating is probably comparable to Kelly Holcomb's because of the style of their game. When half of your passes are to guys 5 yards down the field or less you will have a higher completion rate, therefore upping your QB rating. In 6 out of the 14 games he played his average per pass attempt was less than 7 yards with 4 of those games having an aveage of less than 6. He had 3 games where he passed for more than 250 yards and 2 of those were "bottom of the barrell" pass defenses in the NFL. KC(28), San Diego(31), and Oakland(10). He had ONE game with 2 TD passes and 11 total in 14 games. The one? Against KC(28th in pass defense).

 

3- I do feel I've been a little frustrated with TrINT back there at QB at times which has caused me to be judgemental and harsh in my posts. What helps to fuel that is people talking about him like he's the next "Tom Brady". It's sort of aggrevating to a certain extent because he hasn't shown me more than Holcomb IMO. I just can't see him as the kind of leader that we need in the huddle slinging the ball around out there YET. With time, hopefully, comes improvement and a change in my perception. But actually, what is my perception worth anyway? Did he progress from the year before in his passing? Yes, but he also turned the ball over more(7 more times in 4 more games, namely 5 fumbles lost).

 

4- Some people aren't really a fan of "Edge NFL Matchup", but I like Jaworski. I watched him break down TrINT a couple of times this past season and he always telestrated the same thing that I repeat about him not throwing the ball into open spaces where his WR are getting to. Jaws even broke it down in the MNF game against the Browns as well. I have no reason to fabricate this kind of stuff. You can check into it more if you would like.

 

5- After the Wilson hit, he was scared in the pocket. Watch his feet. Before the Arizona game he was setting up and standing in there more. After that hit, he seemed more nervous. He moved around more and seemed to be more worried about where the blitz was coming from instead of reading and reacting. Because of the moving around and decision making you'll notice that after the Arizona game his passer rating topped 79 only 3 times. KC(28th in pass deffense) with a 121 rating, which is awesome by the way , San Diego(31st) with a 114 rating, and Denver(26th) with a 104.3. He did only lose one more fumble and threw 0 INT's after the Cleveland game though so if it makes you feel better, I'll call him Trent again

 

6- Not saying he CAN'T throw the ball 15-20 yards downfield, saying he doesn't choose to very often. We ALL know how many times he takes the easy/safe way out and dumps the ball off. You will be lying to say he doesn't. Many times he throws the deeper routes? The average he has is about 1 out of every 5 passes attempted is for 15+ yards. Big Ben, 1 out of every 3. Kurt Warner, every other pass is attempted for 15+ yards. McNabb, 1 out of every 3 attempts. Cutler, 1 out of every 3 attempts. Trent did have 35 completions for 20+ yards, but there's no way to find out if it was due to YAC. Like I said, not saying he CAN'T throw it 15-20 yards downfield. I'm saying he mostly chooses not to.

 

7- Yes it would I agree we need a GOOD all-around Tight End on this team. One who's especially effective in the passing game. I'd like to see Casey or Coffman donning a Bills uni next season. Not to say they're the only guys I would want in here, but those are my wishes if we get one via the draft and not FA or trade. I'd really like to have us nab Owen Daniels, but they'll want too much for him. If we're thinking of spending our 1st on a TE like Pettigrew though, I'd rather trade that 1st for Daniels if Houston would do the deal.

 

8- Agreed. I stated my reasons for that earlier. I really am optimistic about our team and it's future, don't get me wrong here on that please I get hammered for that optimism at times I hope that Trent will be our "franchise" QB, I REALLY DO. I just remember getting my hopes up time and time again only to have them dashed by QB's who fell apart or just didn't cut it since Kelly. The position has been a problem here for about 13 years now. My worry with Trent is how I watched his play change, stated earlier, after the AW hit. I hope this doesn't carry over for his whole career. Hopefully we get guys up front that he is TOTALLY confident in(which I believe to be part of the problem) as far as protecting him and then we'll see what the guy REALLY can do.

 

You're alright with me Magox. Don't want you to think I'm trying to make this personal or anything.

[Thurman#1]

What about the other WR's standing running wide open that Trent doesnt see because he checks down as his read progression is still pretty poor?

 

Our WR's seem worse because Trent has yet to develop enough to utilize them...so unless we bring in a Boldin, TJ, etc type player, our WR core is fine...Tight End is a bigger need, especially given Trents comfort in looking in the shorter zones...

 

 

 

When you listen to the radio, Kelso is constantly saying "Nobody was open downfield." Constantly. Both JP and Trent were handicapped by this. A great deal.

 

With that said, TE is a huge need. But let's agree once again that the Bills simply WILL NOT pick a TE who can't block. If there has been a trend to our drafting that is easily recognized, that's it. So we might as well be realistic and not further discuss all the TEs who largely line up off to the side, or just those who can't block. They won't become Bills. So that pretty much leaves Pettigrew and people from the fourth round and down.

 

With WR, there's good reason to hope that a good #2 reciever is already on the roster, in the persons of Hardy and Stevie Johnson. The odds of a rookie WR doing well as a first-year man are somewhere around 10 - 20 %, but they go up quite a bit in the second year and a great deal more in the third.

[Magox]

1- I started calling him TrINT after the Cleveland game that was basically lost in the 1st quarter even though Lindell eventually played the role of "goat" in the end.

 

2- Edwards passer rating is probably comparable to Kelly Holcomb's because of the style of their game. When half of your passes are to guys 5 yards down the field or less you will have a higher completion rate, therefore upping your QB rating. In 6 out of the 14 games he played his average per pass attempt was less than 7 yards with 4 of those games having an aveage of less than 6. He had 3 games where he passed for more than 250 yards and 2 of those were "bottom of the barrell" pass defenses in the NFL. KC(28), San Diego(31), and Oakland(10). He had ONE game with 2 TD passes and 11 total in 14 games. The one? Against KC(28th in pass defense).

 

3- I do feel I've been a little frustrated with TrINT back there at QB at times which has caused me to be judgemental and harsh in my posts. What helps to fuel that is people talking about him like he's the next "Tom Brady". It's sort of aggrevating to a certain extent because he hasn't shown me more than Holcomb IMO. I just can't see him as the kind of leader that we need in the huddle slinging the ball around out there YET. With time, hopefully, comes improvement and a change in my perception. But actually, what is my perception worth anyway? Did he progress from the year before in his passing? Yes, but he also turned the ball over more(7 more times in 4 more games, namely 5 fumbles lost).

 

4- Some people aren't really a fan of "Edge NFL Matchup", but I like Jaworski. I watched him break down TrINT a couple of times this past season and he always telestrated the same thing that I repeat about him not throwing the ball into open spaces where his WR are getting to. Jaws even broke it down in the MNF game against the Browns as well. I have no reason to fabricate this kind of stuff. You can check into it more if you would like.

 

5- After the Wilson hit, he was scared in the pocket. Watch his feet. Before the Arizona game he was setting up and standing in there more. After that hit, he seemed more nervous. He moved around more and seemed to be more worried about where the blitz was coming from instead of reading and reacting. Because of the moving around and decision making you'll notice that after the Arizona game his passer rating topped 79 only 3 times. KC(28th in pass deffense) with a 121 rating, which is awesome by the way , San Diego(31st) with a 114 rating, and Denver(26th) with a 104.3. He did only lose one more fumble and threw 0 INT's after the Cleveland game though so if it makes you feel better, I'll call him Trent again

 

6- Not saying he CAN'T throw the ball 15-20 yards downfield, saying he doesn't choose to very often. We ALL know how many times he takes the easy/safe way out and dumps the ball off. You will be lying to say he doesn't. Many times he throws the deeper routes? The average he has is about 1 out of every 5 passes attempted is for 15+ yards. Big Ben, 1 out of every 3. Kurt Warner, every other pass is attempted for 15+ yards. McNabb, 1 out of every 3 attempts. Cutler, 1 out of every 3 attempts. Trent did have 35 completions for 20+ yards, but there's no way to find out if it was due to YAC. Like I said, not saying he CAN'T throw it 15-20 yards downfield. I'm saying he mostly chooses not to.

 

7- Yes it would I agree we need a GOOD all-around Tight End on this team. One who's especially effective in the passing game. I'd like to see Casey or Coffman donning a Bills uni next season. Not to say they're the only guys I would want in here, but those are my wishes if we get one via the draft and not FA or trade. I'd really like to have us nab Owen Daniels, but they'll want too much for him. If we're thinking of spending our 1st on a TE like Pettigrew though, I'd rather trade that 1st for Daniels if Houston would do the deal.

 

8- Agreed. I stated my reasons for that earlier. I really am optimistic about our team and it's future, don't get me wrong here on that please I get hammered for that optimism at times I hope that Trent will be our "franchise" QB, I REALLY DO. I just remember getting my hopes up time and time again only to have them dashed by QB's who fell apart or just didn't cut it since Kelly. The position has been a problem here for about 13 years now. My worry with Trent is how I watched his play change, stated earlier, after the AW hit. I hope this doesn't carry over for his whole career. Hopefully we get guys up front that he is TOTALLY confident in(which I believe to be part of the problem) as far as protecting him and then we'll see what the guy REALLY can do.

 

You're alright with me Magox. Don't want you to think I'm trying to make this personal or anything.

That was a well thought out and written post. I saw that show with Jaworski where he broke down Trent after the cleveland game. But, there has been other times where Jaworski has sung the praises of Trent. We all have to remember, that this was his first full year starting, we don't have the most talented bunch of players, the blocking at times has been less than desirable, HC hasn't really put us in a position to win as often as we'd like and that we had a first year OC that is unproven and the Billls as a team is adjusting to his system.

 

As a young quarterback that is going into his second full season, me as a fan, I feel good about going into this season, the one thing that worries me most is his durability.

 

I don't agree with everything you wrote, but fair enough.

 

Having said that, I believe that we need to run the ball a little more and establish our identity, have better #2 WR play then what we've had, get a good quality TE and a more stout Center that can handle the AFC East NT bull rushers.

 

I don't think we are that far away, if we can address a couple of these area's in the offseason

[youbotymyboty]

How about Bo Scaife. I think this is a logical FA target for this franchise. Depending on how FA plays out-most assume DE in rd 1. Would Scaife or a Coffman/Casey option work better?

[Trader]

Do not waste any $$ on a WR unless we plan to change our QB. We do not even look downfield, so let's just upgrade where Edwards likes to throw.

 

Spend $$ on defense and center in FA.

 

TE is a higher need than a WR but Hardy is not going to be on the active roster for the first half of the season or longer. They need another WR. A vet who can step in and play and take some coverage off of Evans.

[Magox]

How about Bo Scaife. I think this is a logical FA target for this franchise. Depending on how FA plays out-most assume DE in rd 1. Would Scaife or a Coffman/Casey option work better?

I love the idea of Scaife! He is proven, he is young, he has improved markedly in each of his four years and I don't think he would cost more than $3.5 Million a year and we wouldn't have to use a draft choice on a rookie Tight End.

[Lurker]

Lee Evans was able to get open deep against the Cardinals for some reason.

The Cards just fired their DC for some reason. Humm...