Fezmid Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Any good psychologist or psychiatrist will tell you that non-medical treatments for depression can be just as, if not more, valuable than medical treatments. Therapy, counselling, support from family and friends, thinking positive (and yes, that includes smiling) all do wonders. Yes, pills are necessary a lot of the time, but saying that you "disagree 100%" that smiling more can help is just foolish. And would you please hold off on the Straw Man logic, it isn't fooling anybody. You turned "I don't believe anorexia and alcoholism are diseases" into "I only believe in diseases that you can physically see". Maybe I just have a different interpretation of the word disease than you. Therapy/counseling are important, yes, but the whole "support" and "thinking positive" and "smiling" is just BS. That works if you're sad, not if you have clinical depression. So what "can't see" diseases do you believe are real, since anorexia, bolemia, alcoholism, and depression aren't "real" diseases to you? (and I don't know where you stand on chronic fatigue syndrome either, but I'm guessing you're with Pooj and the "lazy" line of thought). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 please keep in mind, you are going from your extreme(depression/alchoholism) to my extreme (chronic fatigue)..the two/three shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as diseases. but you have to admit, any doctor will call any malady a disease in order to get recognition....i bet if i went to an employer saying that cubes in the office caused me to not do my duties(i know, i said 'duties'), i could find someone some where to diagnose me with a disease called cube fright syndrome...like i said....i am over simplifying it, and i also said in my prior post that i could see sage's point, didnt necessarily agree with it, just could see it.... Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Therapy/counseling are important, yes, but the whole "support" and "thinking positive" and "smiling" is just BS. That works if you're sad, not if you have clinical depression. So what "can't see" diseases do you believe are real, since anorexia, bolemia, alcoholism, and depression aren't "real" diseases to you? (and I don't know where you stand on chronic fatigue syndrome either, but I'm guessing you're with Pooj and the "lazy" line of thought). Putting words in my mouth again. I never said depression wasn't a real disease. And you are dead wrong about support not being important. One of the primary causes behind depression is the sense of isolation that sadness causes. People with a strong support system of family and friends are less likely to slip into depression and that's a verifiable fact. Why would talking to a psychiatrist help but talking to your brother not help? As for most mental diseases, I can only assume they are all "real" but I think that they are overdiagnosed. Some people have chronic fatigue syndrome, but other people diagnosed with it are lazy. Some kids have ADHD, but the majority that are prescribed Ritalin are just poorly behaved. Some people probably have seasonal affective disorder, but the majority of others just like to mope about the winter. As for anorexia and alcoholism, they are behavioral. Nobody becomes an alcoholic by drinking a couple of beers every weekend. They become alcoholics from drinking heavily. People make the mistake of drinking too much and some of them become addicted. The cure is to put down the f*cking bottle and stop drinking. The cure to anorexia is to pick up a fork and eat something. People who are unwilling to change their lifestyles in order to prevent themselves from dying do not have my sympathy. It's the same with obesity. Yes, some people have legitimate metabolism probles, but the majority of obese people just eat far too much and never leave their living room couch. And yet, morbidly obese people now qualify as having a "disability". It seems that in America, we're all about being victims. "I can't stop drinking, I have alcoholism". "It isn't my son's fault that he acts up in class, he has ADHD." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Putting words in my mouth again. I never said depression wasn't a real disease. And you are dead wrong about support not being important. One of the primary causes behind depression is the sense of isolation that sadness causes. People with a strong support system of family and friends are less likely to slip into depression and that's a verifiable fact. Why would talking to a psychiatrist help but talking to your brother not help? As for most mental diseases, I can only assume they are all "real" but I think that they are overdiagnosed. Some people have chronic fatigue syndrome, but other people diagnosed with it are lazy. Some kids have ADHD, but the majority that are prescribed Ritalin are just poorly behaved. Some people probably have seasonal affective disorder, but the majority of others just like to mope about the winter. As for anorexia and alcoholism, they are behavioral. Nobody becomes an alcoholic by drinking a couple of beers every weekend. They become alcoholics from drinking heavily. People make the mistake of drinking too much and some of them become addicted. The cure is to put down the f*cking bottle and stop drinking. The cure to anorexia is to pick up a fork and eat something. People who are unwilling to change their lifestyles in order to prevent themselves from dying do not have my sympathy. It's the same with obesity. Yes, some people have legitimate metabolism probles, but the majority of obese people just eat far too much and never leave their living room couch. And yet, morbidly obese people now qualify as having a "disability". It seems that in America, we're all about being victims. "I can't stop drinking, I have alcoholism". "It isn't my son's fault that he acts up in class, he has ADHD." For a guy that will post all day on bongs,thats a pretty high horse you set on. Hope you don't fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 For a guy that will post all day on bongs,thats a pretty high horse you set on. Hope you don't fall. Nope, I have many problems and personal issues of my own. I'm just man enough to take personal responsibility for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 The cure is to put down the f*cking bottle and stop drinking. The cure to anorexia is to pick up a fork and eat something. People who are unwilling to change their lifestyles in order to prevent themselves from dying do not have my sympathy. And you've done how much scientific research on this...? Yeah, that's what I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantstopbeastmode Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 And you've done how much scientific research on this...? Yeah, that's what I thought. What scientific research is necessary? If you consider yourself an alcoholc, and you don't want to be one anymore, then stop grabbing your bottle. Thats it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 And you've done how much scientific research on this...? Yeah, that's what I thought. Probably about as much as you. Sometimes common sense suffices, doesn't it? Problem: Cannot drink in moderation. Solution: Don't drink at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew in CA Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Probably about as much as you. Sometimes common sense suffices, doesn't it? Problem: Cannot drink in moderation. Solution: Don't drink at all. I used to feel the same way... totally unsympathetic to any alcoholic or drug addict. However, and I do realize this sounds silly, watching the show "Intervention" on A&E demonstrated that almost every addiction stems from much deeper issues- abuse, death, rape, etc. Only rarely is it the result of "I partied a lot, and just won't stop." And when that is the case, I have no sympathy. However, those that have major problems with drinking or food need help big time. It's more than just stop drinking, it's addressing major issues in your life that the addict will not recognize or address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Probably about as much as you. Sometimes common sense suffices, doesn't it? Actually, my wife works in the drug and alcohol field -- so I"ve read a lot of the papers and research that she's brought into the house. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I used to feel the same way... totally unsympathetic to any alcoholic or drug addict. However, and I do realize this sounds silly, watching the show "Intervention" on A&E demonstrated that almost every addiction stems from much deeper issues- abuse, death, rape, etc. Only rarely is it the result of "I partied a lot, and just won't stop." And when that is the case, I have no sympathy. However, those that have major problems with drinking or food need help big time. It's more than just stop drinking, it's addressing major issues in your life that the addict will not recognize or address. And I guess I should clarify my point a little. When I say "put down the bottle", I mean "Do everything in your power to put down the bottle." I realize that cold turkey only works for a very small percentage of addicts, the people that realize just how strong will power can be. Counselling, AA meetings, anything that helps a person to quit. The trouble is that I believe the whole victim mentality is a good excuse for people to not seek help. That's why I protest against the disease label. At AA meetings, the people say "I have a problem", not "I have a disease". Admitting you have a problem is the correct attitude and the first step toward beating it. Thinking you have a disease is the wrong attitude and an easy way give up hope of ever beating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Actually, my wife works in the drug and alcohol field -- so I"ve read a lot of the papers and research that she's brought into the house. Thanks. Well I apologize for assuming you were uninformed, but you haven't been backing up any of your arguments with scientific data, you've just been saying that I'm wrong and then vaguely explaining why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I am far less offended by 'adult oriented' ads than I am by the endless ads attempting to turn us into a nation of drug addicts. Ban advertising on prescription drugs like every other civilized country on earth (except NZ) and I bet 90% of the complaints here go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Wow... I bet you think that alcoholics should just not buy and drink beer too, right? There's a physical addiction to substances--that makes the body sick when it doesn't have the substance. And then there's free will. Every time an addict reaches for the substance, it's an exercise of free will...harder for the addict, but still free will. If people could cure cancer with free will, most would. No such correlation with alcoholism. So for me, the "disease" alcoholism is a BS term. The addiction may be real and have a chemical basis but again, every drink requires the addict to walk to find the booze, open the booze, pour the booze, and drink the booze--each of those steps requires free will. Just like the obese person has to go to the fridge. To say otherwise is to deny someone's free will: Something I refuse to do. I have family members with eating disorders and alcoholism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Well I apologize for assuming you were uninformed, but you haven't been backing up any of your arguments with scientific data, you've just been saying that I'm wrong and then vaguely explaining why. That's fine. We're obviously going to disagree and there's nothing either one of us can do to change the other's mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Ever stop to think that the only reason this is a problem is because the american society has decreed sex as this big taboo topic? Boobs are boobs. Big f'in deal. If our society wasn't so anal retentive about something so harmless as seeing a nipple, this wouldn't be a problem. What causes the bigger problem? A billboard or ad with scantily clad women that an 8 year old sees and no one says a second word, or the same billboard where the parents freak out and try to block the 8 year old from seeing it and make a huge stink about it? An 8 year old seeing a nipple or boobs isn't a problem. Anal-retentive overbearing over protective parents are the problem. Ha ha, he said anal, ha ha....and boobs, ha ha boobs.....he hee ehe heee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 That's fine. We're obviously going to disagree and there's nothing either one of us can do to change the other's mind Alright dude, sounds good to me. That's what tends to happen when people have discussions regarding human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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