Wacka Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I have read that the crew should disengage the autopilot every 5-10 minutes or so in conditions where icing may occur. Being on autopilot, the crew can't feel changes in handling that occur with the slow buildup of ice,. The autopilot disengaged and it was too late to recover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 I have read that the crew should disengage the autopilot every 5-10 minutes or so in conditions where icing may occur. Being on autopilot, the crew can't feel changes in handling that occur with the slow buildup of ice,. The autopilot disengaged and it was too late to recover. Yeah, maybe they didn't realize the changes autopilot was making to keep it level. What causes a plane to pitch up and then down like it did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 The circumstances just seem unusual to me. I'm not an expert but I don't recall any crash described quite like this before where 1 second everything's fine and they're communicating with the tower on landing instructions, and the next second the plane goes into a violent pitch and roll pattern. And within 26 seconds it's on the ground and hits only one house. I can't believe this is the 1st time a plane flying into Buffalo experienced ice conditions of this degree. I think either: a) the de-icer wasn't working and they didn't realize it so when they started lowering the landing gear or making some other change in preparation for landing, it interfered with the proper functioning; or b) the problem was with the auto-pilot system itself (which was reported to have been on) and may have had little or nothing to do with the weather. Perhaps it was an electrical/computer fail of the autopilot system that sent bad commands. On the news they said the plane was on autopilot up until 26 seconds before landing and that those weather conditions forbid the use of autopilot at all. IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ1 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 On the news they said the plane was on autopilot up until 26 seconds before landing and that those weather conditions forbid the use of autopilot at all. IIRC. 10:1 pilot error will be named prime cause for 2 reasons. 1) For the senseless nearly 100% use of auto-pilot in wintry conditions. and 2)Overreaction mis-control of aircraft once off auto-pilot. I weight 1 as 90% of the error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 10:1 pilot error will be named prime cause for 2 reasons. 1) For the senseless nearly 100% use of auto-pilot in wintry conditions. and 2)Overreaction mis-control of aircraft once off auto-pilot. I weight 1 as 90% of the error. So you think the pitch up was caused by the pilot pulling back too much? And then everything else was a reaction to this initial error? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Hey...I'd like to give a shout out to all those sick, insenstive POS's who think it would be cool to sneak into the crash site to snap some pictures or take video. According to local police, this has been happening with shocking regularity, with some people even having been arrested. It never ceases to amaze me how some people get their rocks off at the expense of someone elses tragedy. I truly hope that no one on this board has done such a thing...and if you know someone who did or is thinking about it...B word slap the motherf*ckers and tell them to get a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile. I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile. I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me. That family lived several years in the Greater Cinncinati area. The news stories, neighbors, here spoke of them as decent folk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile. I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me. Would you want to rebuild on the spot that the crash occurred on, and the effect that hearing planes fly over the house would have? I would expect that the wife would want to move someplace where she would feel safe. Plus I would expect the combination of insurance and a payout from the airlines would pay for any rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Excellent points, Joe. The community really is struggling with this, wanting to do something. Already over 22 thousand sigs, but a new home for them doesn't have to be built on the same lot -or town- for that matter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebug Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile. I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me. Awesome Idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Agree. Jets have heated wings. Can't imagine why these smaller planes don't. Cost cutting? Don't know, having planes fall from the sky isn't good for business either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Don't know, having planes fall from the sky isn't good for business either. Indeed. There was some squaker here claimed that turboprop aircraft were dangerous. Perhaps he might recall the planes that the US Government uses as hurricane chasers, the planes used in the North Atlantic in running the USCG International Ice Patrol. My ratings: 1. DC-3 2. C-130 3. B-52 4. Cessna 150 series 5. Anything else - you pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Would you want to rebuild on the spot that the crash occurred on, and the effect that hearing planes fly over the house would have? I would expect that the wife would want to move someplace where she would feel safe. Plus I would expect the combination of insurance and a payout from the airlines would pay for any rebuild. If you ever saw the "World According to Garp" That plane crash would be a good thing for the property because it's already been pre-disastered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Indeed. There was some squaker here claimed that turboprop aircraft were dangerous. Perhaps he might recall the planes that the US Government uses as hurricane chasers, the planes used in the North Atlantic in running the USCG International Ice Patrol. My ratings: 1. DC-3 2. C-130 3. B-52 4. Cessna 150 series 5. Anything else - you pick. Cessna 150 is hardly a turboprop. Barely a prop on those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dib Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Cessna 150 is hardly a turboprop. Barely a prop on those. When did they put props on B-52's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayFinkle Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 When did they put props on B-52's WWII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricojes Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 My sister lives in Clarence Center and she just forwarded a link to sign a petition to get/request Extreme Home Makeover to rebuild the home where the plane hit and killed the father/husband. It's a small offering from the townflok so deeply involved and appears legit and worthwhile. I don't think I'm/we're allowed to post the link here -or I would. Shouldn't be too difficult to look up. Otherwise PM me. Yeah, I saw/heard that over the weekend. Sounds like a good idea, but they should include the neighbors house as well, it sustained major structural damage and was red tagged this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 10:1 pilot error will be named prime cause for 2 reasons. 1) For the senseless nearly 100% use of auto-pilot in wintry conditions. and 2)Overreaction mis-control of aircraft once off auto-pilot. I weight 1 as 90% of the error. Sadly, i think you are going to be correct about the major cause being pinned on pilot error. I don't think the airplane malfunctioned in any way. The pilot in command only had about 110 hours in the Q400. The first officer had more experience in the right seat but she was only 24. I mean really, I doubt either one had the vast experience in "moderate to significant" icing to cope with the auto pilot snapping off- pushing the yoke down, and dealing with violent pitching and rolling at such a low altitude. There was not enough altitude to recover. We learned from the Roselawn, Indiana crash that ice can build up really quickly on these turbo prop aircraft. The best way to handle it was to get outta the junk quickly and fly by hand to get a feel for any sluggishness and whatever necessary aerodynamic adjustments needed to be made. The recommendation after the Buffalo crash (for Commuter props, etc.) will probably be to switch off the auto pilot and fly by hand in any icing conditions. I feel like this crash was so preventable because we already knew this. It's so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted February 17, 2009 Share Posted February 17, 2009 Sadly, i think you are going to be correct about the major cause being pinned on pilot error. I don't think the airplane malfunctioned in any way. The pilot in command only had about 110 hours in the Q400. The first officer had more experience in the right seat but she was only 24. I mean really, I doubt either one had the vast experience in "moderate to significant" icing to cope with the auto pilot snapping off- pushing the yoke down, and dealing with violent pitching and rolling at such a low altitude. There was not enough altitude to recover. We learned from the Roselawn, Indiana crash that ice can build up really quickly on these turbo prop aircraft. The best way to handle it was to get outta the junk quickly and fly by hand to get a feel for any sluggishness and whatever necessary aerodynamic adjustments needed to be made. The recommendation after the Buffalo crash (for Commuter props, etc.) will probably be to switch off the auto pilot and fly by hand in any icing conditions. I feel like this crash was so preventable because we already knew this. It's so sad. I thought that was a rule for coming into Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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