Gordio Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Yes, but what are the differences? Big Ben has won 2 Super Bowls and Collins hasn't. So, Ben makes plays and Collins doesn't. That's dumb. Of course, Collins made plays. Collins had bad luck in that his primary weapon went lame in the playoffs. If not for that, this whole argument is probably turned upside down and we're talking about how Collins is a better QB than Ben because the Titans won a Super Bowl. It just boils down to the same argument over and over. Not so long ago, the problem with this team was the QB. He was no good and got sacked too much and ran around too much and should just throw the ball away. On the other hand, if he didn't complete enough passes, he was no good either. How does one take this? Is the QB supposed to block for himself? Is he supposed to create a running game by wishful thinking? Is he supposed to teach the coaches how to design plays and correct their bad calls with audibles every snap? Is he supposed to run the routes and catch his own passes? Is he in the war room on draft day selecting defensive backs? But, to raise a doubt about this QB myopic view of football opens the door to straw men arguments, posturing, and wishful misrepresentation. For apparently, if you see more problems than simply the kid under center, you can't see that the kid under center has issues even if you've never stopped saying he had those issues even when the Polyannas were running around calling him Savior. Last offseason, some of the same people claiming QB play -- Trent Edwards is the QB -- is holding the team back now where throwing homophobic rhetoric around in defense of Edwards. Obviously I am not going to change your mind about this but you talking down to people like your some guru of football is really starting to rub me the wrong way. Anybody that has watched the bills the last 5yrs should be able to plainly see that the poor play of the qb has been one of the major if not the major problem with this team. Is it the only problem? Of course not. But when you have a qb that continues to bounce simple 10yrd outs, can not read a defense to save his life, throws into double coverage, puts his team in bad down & distances situations by taking dumb sacks & never learns from his mistakes your offense has a problem. Is Edwards the answer? I really do not know but I have seen enough good things out of him last year to give me hope. I had no hope with Losman. The teams that have been a consistent winner this decade; teams like NE/Indy/Pittsburgh/Philadelphia all have one thing in common. They all have had steady/sometime borderline spectacular performances from the QB position.
bizell Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Yes, but what are the differences? Big Ben has won 2 Super Bowls and Collins hasn't. So, Ben makes plays and Collins doesn't. That's dumb. Of course, Collins made plays. Collins had bad luck in that his primary weapon went lame in the playoffs. If not for that, this whole argument is probably turned upside down and we're talking about how Collins is a better QB than Ben because the Titans won a Super Bowl. It just boils down to the same argument over and over. Not so long ago, the problem with this team was the QB. He was no good and got sacked too much and ran around too much and should just throw the ball away. On the other hand, if he didn't complete enough passes, he was no good either. How does one take this? Is the QB supposed to block for himself? Is he supposed to create a running game by wishful thinking? Is he supposed to teach the coaches how to design plays and correct their bad calls with audibles every snap? Is he supposed to run the routes and catch his own passes? Is he in the war room on draft day selecting defensive backs? But, to raise a doubt about this QB myopic view of football opens the door to straw men arguments, posturing, and wishful misrepresentation. For apparently, if you see more problems than simply the kid under center, you can't see that the kid under center has issues even if you've never stopped saying he had those issues even when the Polyannas were running around calling him Savior. Last offseason, some of the same people claiming QB play -- Trent Edwards is the QB -- is holding the team back now where throwing homophobic rhetoric around in defense of Edwards. I guess it basically boils down to, "Who would you rather have @ QB if you needed to win the game?". With BenRo, chances are he's going to break a few tackles and somehow get off a pass that he had no business throwing because he should have been down at some point in the game. Collins, in that same situation, is probably going to either a. get sacked or b. run backwards throwing a stupid pass (not that ben doesn't do that, also).
thebandit27 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 How's this for a semi-intelligent reply? The woes of an eleven man unit which depends on choreography and precision for success usually cannot be reduced to one factor. As a sophisticated analyst would frame the issue, there can be % blame apportioned to several areas. I think most of us can agree that we have subpar weapons in the passing game. I think most of us can agree that we have an average offensive line. I think most of can agree that we had a first year offensive coordinator installing a slightly new system. I think most of can agree that Trent is a young quarterback. He has 23 career starts. I think most of us can agree that somewhere around 99% of all young quarterbacks struggle. So IMO blaming the poor offensive performance solely on quarterback play is a gross oversimplification. Why can't we say something like: 30% blame: poor receiving corp 25% blame: average offensive line 25% blame: Newer system/New offensive coordinator 20% blame: Poor quarterback play You can split hairs on the % of blame but to put it all on one factor is ridiculous to me. With the exception of having Mike Mularky as an OC, every one of your assumptions regarding what most of us would agree on were true for Atlanta last year. They went and got a great QB, and viola, those very same problems practically disappeared. The original post is correct, the Bills' QB play has been just plain lousy for many years, and it is the team's biggest problem. I should also make the obligatory disclaimer that I don't like either Edwards or Losman, I think they're both below-average QBs.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 With the exception of having Mike Mularky as an OC, every one of your assumptions regarding what most of us would agree on were true for Atlanta last year. They went and got a great QB, and viola, those very same problems practically disappeared. The original post is correct, the Bills' QB play has been just plain lousy for many years, and it is the team's biggest problem. I should also make the obligatory disclaimer that I don't like either Edwards or Losman, I think they're both below-average QBs. The thing is bandit, you state one of the few exceptions to the argument. Yes Ryan looks immediately like a franchise quarterback and won Rookie of the Year. I could name you endless teams where a good-great quarterback with few weapons, bad coaching, and poor-average offensive line ended up being an average offense. There's several posts upstream from this one that make that case. As I said, Ryan is the exception. Those guys don't grow on trees. Actually how's this. How many rookie quarterbacks go to the playoffs? Very few. And how many of those rookie quarterbacks are the reason their teams made the playoffs? Even fewer. Until this year with Ryan and Flacco only 10 rookie quarterbacks have had winning records. Year QB, team Com-Att % Yards TD-INT QB rec. Team rec. 1979 Phil Simms, NYG 134-265 50.5 1,743 13-14 6-5 6-10 1980 David Woodley, Mia 176-327 53.8 1,850 14-17 6-5 8-8 1983 Dan Marino, Mia 173-296 58.4 2,210 20-6 7-2 12-4 1988 Chris Chandler, Ind 129-233 55.3 1,619 8-12 9-4 9-7 1995 Kerry Collins, Car 214-433 49.4 2,717 14-19 7-6 7-9 2003 Kyle Boller, Balt 116-224 51.8 1,260 7-9 5-4 10-6 2004 Ben R’brgr, Pitt 196-295 66.4 2,621 17-11 13-0 15-1 2005 Kyle Orton, Chi 190-368 51.6 1,869 9-13 10-5 11-5 2006 Vince Young, Tenn 184-357 51.5 2,199 12-13 8-5 8-8 2007 Trent Edwards, Buf 151-269 56.1 1,630 7-8 5-4 7-9 Below are the six rookie quarterbacks ever to start a playoff game before this season. 1983 Dan Marino 15 25 60% 193 2 2 1985 Bernie Kosar 10 19 52.6% 66 1 1 1986 Jim Everett 9 18 50.0% 136 1 2 1991 Todd Marinovich 12 23 52.2 140 0 4 1999 Shaun King 15 32 46.9 157 1 1 2004 Ben Roethlisberger 17 30 56.7 181 1 2 So the final analysis is that in the last 29 years, only 4 rookie quarterbacks have quarterbacked their teams to the playoffs: Dan Marino, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco. Trent Edwards is one of 10 quarterbacks to have a winning record as a rookie (5-4).This thread is getting pretty long. I'm going to start a new one with this info.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 Trent Edwards is one of 10 quarterbacks to have a winning record as a rookie (5-4).This thread is getting pretty long. I'm going to start a new one with this info. No offense, but I am so sick of this stat about his wins...A lot of those wins were INSPITE of TE, not because of TE...The guy has only 3 games, yes just a measly 3 games with MORE than 1 TD pass...he isnt going out and "winning" games for us. He also has passed for less than a measly 200 yards in 11 of his 23 full games...thats just about 50%...he has more games with ZERO TD's than he does with more than 1...and when your D is middle of the pack, you wont win many games if you cant put points up. Thankfully, our D and ST puts up some occassional points, or we would have only won 4 games this year... So much of the credit for the 4-0 start is unfairly given to him as if he was the catalyst. He played ok in the first two games and they looked promising, but the truth about the next is that he stunk it up against the Rams and Raiders until they went prevent in 4th quarter giving huge cushions to the WR's. In fact, even after his so called heroic 4th quarters in those games, his QB rating was still just 81 in both games because his first 3 qtrs had been so bad against bottom feeder teams. And in both those wins, he was bailed out by Greer, Mitchell, and also Lynch made some incredible play to extend the key drive on yet another check down by Trent 10 yards short of the first down... We should have never of had to come back on those teams, but his poor play through the bulk of those games had us behind and other people bailed us out, not just Trent. Sure, Trent did take part in those wins, and he made a couple of key passes, not taking that away from him, but we were playing from behind because he wasnt playing well. Just like JP stunk it up in SF game...We also almost won INSPITE of one the worst games I have ever seen by a QB when we played CLE...if we win that game, I am sure TE gets heroic praise too when if Lindell makes that kick even though we would have won that game INSPITE of Trent, not because of Trent... In no way, was he overly dominating or impressive in the better part of those games...I love how he gets so much credit in some of these wins, and avoids responsibility when we lose...
thebug Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 No offense, but I am so sick of this stat about his wins...A lot of those wins were INSPITE of TE, not because of TE...The guy has only 3 games, yes just a measly 3 games with MORE than 1 TD pass...he isnt going out and "winning" games for us. He also has passed for less than a measly 200 yards in 11 of his 23 full games...thats just about 50%...he has more games with ZERO TD's than he does with more than 1...and when your D is middle of the pack, you wont win many games if you cant put points up. Thankfully, our D and ST puts up some occassional points, or we would have only won 4 games this year... So much of the credit for the 4-0 start is unfairly given to him as if he was the catalyst. He played ok in the first two games and they looked promising, but the truth about the next is that he stunk it up against the Rams and Raiders until they went prevent in 4th quarter giving huge cushions to the WR's. In fact, even after his so called heroic 4th quarters in those games, his QB rating was still just 81 in both games because his first 3 qtrs had been so bad against bottom feeder teams. And in both those wins, he was bailed out by Greer, Mitchell, and also Lynch made some incredible play to extend the key drive on yet another check down by Trent 10 yards short of the first down... We should have never of had to come back on those teams, but his poor play through the bulk of those games had us behind and other people bailed us out, not just Trent. Sure, Trent did take part in those wins, and he made a couple of key passes, not taking that away from him, but we were playing from behind because he wasnt playing well. Just like JP stunk it up in SF game...We also almost won INSPITE of one the worst games I have ever seen by a QB when we played CLE...if we win that game, I am sure TE gets heroic praise too when if Lindell makes that kick even though we would have won that game INSPITE of Trent, not because of Trent... In no way, was he overly dominating or impressive in the better part of those games...I love how he gets so much credit in some of these wins, and avoids responsibility when we lose... It's ok JP, I'm sure you will catch on with another team.
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 No offense, but I am so sick of this stat about his wins...A lot of those wins were INSPITE of TE, not because of TE...The guy has only 3 games, yes just a measly 3 games with MORE than 1 TD pass...he isnt going out and "winning" games for us. He also has passed for less than a measly 200 yards in 11 of his 23 full games...thats just about 50%...he has more games with ZERO TD's than he does with more than 1...and when your D is middle of the pack, you wont win many games if you cant put points up. Thankfully, our D and ST puts up some occassional points, or we would have only won 4 games this year... So much of the credit for the 4-0 start is unfairly given to him as if he was the catalyst. He played ok in the first two games and they looked promising, but the truth about the next is that he stunk it up against the Rams and Raiders until they went prevent in 4th quarter giving huge cushions to the WR's. In fact, even after his so called heroic 4th quarters in those games, his QB rating was still just 81 in both games because his first 3 qtrs had been so bad against bottom feeder teams. And in both those wins, he was bailed out by Greer, Mitchell, and also Lynch made some incredible play to extend the key drive on yet another check down by Trent 10 yards short of the first down... We should have never of had to come back on those teams, but his poor play through the bulk of those games had us behind and other people bailed us out, not just Trent. Sure, Trent did take part in those wins, and he made a couple of key passes, not taking that away from him, but we were playing from behind because he wasnt playing well. Just like JP stunk it up in SF game...We also almost won INSPITE of one the worst games I have ever seen by a QB when we played CLE...if we win that game, I am sure TE gets heroic praise too when if Lindell makes that kick even though we would have won that game INSPITE of Trent, not because of Trent... In no way, was he overly dominating or impressive in the better part of those games...I love how he gets so much credit in some of these wins, and avoids responsibility when we lose... Dude, Losman is a losing QB. Edwards isn't great but he puts the team in better position to win. Please explain how both TE and Kelly Holcomb can step in for Losman and deal at least .500 records with the same team while JP was well below .500??? TE isn't great but he is a better QB than JP. Just accept it.
MRW Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 It's ok JP, I'm sure you will catch on with another team. Such a hilarious yet substantive reply.
reddogblitz Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Kerry Collins is not a great "franchise QB," but he is better than many and good enough to win games including playoff games. He's started in a Super Bowl for crying out loud. As for this past year, the Titans were dominating the game up until Chris Johnson went down with an injury and left the game. Laying the blame on Kerry Collins for that is a coach potato view of the game where all one watches is the football and the guy holding it. Also, it is not true that Collins never made a play last year. That loss was soooooooo not Kerry Collins' fault. Not only did that RB who was dominating the game come up lame, but the receivers kept dropping passes, including one at the end on a go ahead drive. Even with the RB out they could have won if the WRs had caught the freakin' football. The QB can only throw the ball, he can't catch it too (well most of the time anyway). I'd love to see Kerry Collins in a Bills suit this year starting under center.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 It's ok JP, I'm sure you will catch on with another team. hmmm, considering I knocked JP in the same post...but ok...I love how this is how most people defend Trent...a stomp my feet and mock others and ignore his on field performance... Nice come back *sarcastic* Real Original *more sarcastic* Hope you didnt hurt yourself trying to think of that comeback, you know the one thats been used over and over again...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 Dude, Losman is a losing QB. Edwards isn't great but he puts the team in better position to win. Please explain how both TE and Kelly Holcomb can step in for Losman and deal at least .500 records with the same team while JP was well below .500??? TE isn't great but he is a better QB than JP. Just accept it. Uh, when did I say JP was any good? JP blows, and this thread was dedicated to the combined performance of both QB's and even stated JP played even worse than Trent this year... The only thing I have ever said was that JP's 2006 is better than any body of work Trent has put up thus far, but JP was still getting hammered that off season. Now that Trent has also had subpar performances, the same people who hammered JP are propping up Trent as if he is Brady or Montanna even though his on field performance has yet to show this... I am glad to see JP leave, not a right fit for him. Maybe he puts it together on another team, but its clear it wont happen here.
Flbillsfan#1 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Dude, Losman is a losing QB. Edwards isn't great but he puts the team in better position to win. Please explain how both TE and Kelly Holcomb can step in for Losman and deal at least .500 records with the same team while JP was well below .500??? TE isn't great but he is a better QB than JP. Just accept it. I can explain it this way, JP played against much better teams.
Bill from NYC Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I can explain it this way, JP played against much better teams. He is horrible Bro. Please face facts.
thebug Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 hmmm, considering I knocked JP in the same post...but ok...I love how this is how most people defend Trent...a stomp my feet and mock others and ignore his on field performance... Nice come back *sarcastic* Real Original *more sarcastic* Hope you didnt hurt yourself trying to think of that comeback, you know the one thats been used over and over again... Yes it has; I have used it on many other whiny bitches as well.
Magox Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 It's ok JP, I'm sure you will catch on with another team. no, Alpo is JP's stepmother's friends son
Gordio Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 That loss was soooooooo not Kerry Collins' fault. Not only did that RB who was dominating the game come up lame, but the receivers kept dropping passes, including one at the end on a go ahead drive. Even with the RB out they could have won if the WRs had caught the freakin' football. The QB can only throw the ball, he can't catch it too (well most of the time anyway). I'd love to see Kerry Collins in a Bills suit this year starting under center. Not once did I say it was Collins fault that they lost that game. What I said was when they needed him to step up & make a play he failed to do it.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 no, Alpo is JP's stepmother's friends son Another typical post by you...FYI, you mispelled your name...should be a "t" not an "x"...its cool, typo's happen... Like theBug (who works really hard to live up to his name), that was real original *coughing sarcastically* Judging by the lame substance of most of your posts (or should I say mocks), I guess it would be unreasonable for me to expect you to come up with something any more intelligent, original, or interesting than this lame post you use constantly... My apologies for grossly over estimating your abilities...shame on me...
timba Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 The Bills could use an upgrade at QB. In fact every team would take an upgrade at QB if one was available. Actually every team would take an upgrade at EVERY position if they could. Even if it were Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, if the team knew they had somebody better they could get, they'd go for it... if it were a priority. The quarterback is NOT the position we need to upgrade this offseason to see the most results next year. Take the bullet this year and pass on your glamor picks. Lets fix the lines and work from there. If replacing a QB was the solution to all problems, the Lions would be the reigning champions for forever.
reddogblitz Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Not once did I say it was Collins fault that they lost that game. What I said was when they needed him to step up & make a play he failed to do it. I disagree. On the last drive he hit a guy on like 4th down or something in the bread basket and he failed to make the catch. Not Kerry's fault. He only throws. I don't remember the circumstances exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was on the last drive and Tennessee was getting close to the goal line. If that guy catches and extends the drive or makes a TD, he made a play. The guy drops it and he doesn't? That was one drop out of about 5 in that game. If Santonio Holmes had let that last pass go through his hands like he did the one a couple of plays before, would we be saying Big Ben couldn't make a big play? Yeah, probably.
Stussy109 Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Ok, I am just so baffled by those who claim QB is not the problem and blame everything on DJ, Ralph, Peters, or DE...So I am going to spell it out for you right here in black and white...QB PRODUCTION...of should I say LACK of production has been the biggest factor to our losing seasons the last 2 years. Not saying, DE isnt a major need, or that DJ didnt make mistakes, but no other factor has held this club back as much as QB production... Seriously look at these stats. These are the combined stats of JP and Trent for the last 2 seasons where all the blame is being put on DJ...Once you see these stats, ask yourself "How can a coach win in the NFL with this little producton and insane amount of turnovers from his QB's, the most important position on the field?" Not to mention, this is with our staff being incredibly cautious with our QB's and limiting the risks they take, yet they still turn the ball over an embarrasing amount of times... 2007: Yards: 2834 = 177 yards per game TD's: 11 INT's 14 TD:INT ratio: .79:1 Sacks: 26 2008: Yards: 3283 = 205 yards per game TD's: 13 INT's: 15 TD:INT ratio: .87:1 Sacks: 38 Summary, in 32 games our QB's have passed for only 24 TD's total (unbelievably pathetic), 29 INT's (awful), have a TD:INT ratio less than 1:1 at .83:1, average ONLY 191.16 yards per game (incredibly pathetic) and have been sacked 64 times (or twice a game, not terrible, but not very good). Also, during that span, Trent has 5 LOST fumbles and JP has 6 LOST fumbles for another 11 turnovers...so TD to turnover ratio plummets to .60:1 when you factor that in...(horrendous) How is DJ supposed to win when in the last 32 games his QB's passed pathetically for: 1. ONLY 24 TD's 2. ONLY 191 yards per game 3. Turned the ball over 40 times with 29 INT's 4. Have TD:INT ratio of a pathetic .83:1 5. Have been sacked 64 times Seriously? How? I know someone is going to argue that the coaching scheme was too predicatable and simple...well what the h*ll do you expect them to do with the passing scheme when the QB's are performing so poorly? Make it more complicated? Everytime they start showing confidence in the QB's and expand, they let the staff down and regress...therefore the scheme stays simple... So, please expalin to me how that HORRIBLE production is less of a factor than our sack total or our coaching staff... The fact we won 7 games both years is a MIRACLE when you also factor in the massive injuries in 2007 and the critical losses of Crowell and Schobel this year as well as the injuries to other players...Even if we had no injuries, winning 7 games either year with this pathetic QB production is still a miracle. Now for you Trent supporters...read carefully...THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF WHAT TRENT WILL BE ONE DAY, ITS A DISCUSSION OF WHAT OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM WAS IN 2007 AND 2008. Potential has ZERO relevance when analyzing actual play on the field as potential is based on something that HAS NOT HAPPENED YET...and this discussion is on what has already happened. Dick Jauron is supposed to win the same way belicheat wins with a QB who hasn't played since HS and a 4th stringer at RB. Its his job to FIND A WAY to win, not to go through the motions. I would venture out to say that a lot of our starters would be studs on other teams. Look at Andre Davis, Jim leahnord, pat williams etc
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