DRAFTDOG.COM: Mack at #11!!!!

[Thurman#1]

Here is one scouting report;

Pros: Antoine Caldwell #59 – Offensive Center –When Caldwell was a freshman, Alabama was struggling with injuries at the center position. Caldwell was placed in at center during the Cotton Bowl, and has kept the job ever since. The next season, Caldwell was voted offensive captain as a sophomore, so he’s developed a leadership quality from an early stage of his career. Caldwell is a tremendous chip blocker who can block a defensive lineman and quickly move to the second tier of the defense to hit a linebacker or safety. Caldwell has excellent footwork during pass blocking and can maintain his blocks very well. Caldwell maintains a low center of gravity which is excellent when he moves to the NFL level.

Cons: Antoine Caldwell has very little weaknesses, although he's listed as 305 pounds; but his playing weight is more like 295 pounds. Can Caldwell handle a bull rush from a large NFL defensive tackle? I think he can, based on his good technique and center of gravity.

Overall: Antoine Calwell should be taken in the second round. He won't be available in the third round.

 

So I don't know how is right, but based on what I saw of him at the senior bowl he may be a value pick in the third round. So would Lugis or Eric Wood. I feel strongly that Mack is a reach at 11.

 

 

Yeah, I saw that one too, and it looks to me as if he is GUESSING that Caldwell will stand up to the bull rush. Guessing is just not good enough. Caldwell has proved himself as a nifty guy, but has NOT proved himself against the bull rush, and that is what any new center in Buffalo will face, a bull rush twice a year from the 345 pound Kris Jenkins and twice a year from the 320 pound Wilfork. The Fins generally use a guy who's only around 305, but also have a 350 pounder on the roster in case our guy can't handle big guys.

 

The report you cite says he is "a tremendous chip blocker." That is exactly NOT what we need in the AFC East!!

 

Some of the other reports I saw on Caldwell had him available as far back as the 5th round this year. There is a reason a guy lasts that long and it's not because he has proven himself against all kinds of competitition.

 

-----

 

Also, you found that on fantasyfootballjungle.com, right? But you left out something else from the same page, didn't you, because it didn't fit your point. This is from exactly the same page where you got your quote:

 

 

Antoine Caldwell Scouting Report by Dave S

Pros: Big guy smart player makes good calls at the line! If he makes it to the 4th round esp. the late 4th he is a good value pick for a team looking to roll the dice and upgrade the O line from the inside out. I could easily see a team who is looking for a good back-up the first year and wants to get younger at Center picking him up. I don't see a team drafting Caldwell to start.

Cons: I'm just not sold on him and not sure he can get to the second level in the pro's. Unlike Mack and Luigs I don't see him starting his first year. I would even go as far as saying Unger might be a better prospect.

Overall: I think Caldwell will be a solid player and with some work with a good line coach on his footwork could add great depth to a team willing to wait for production.

 

 

He doesn't see him starting his first year. I see red flags and sirens going off with that report. I see why you didn't include it.

 

 

OK, here's another thing I found, just looking quickly. Here's what Kiper had to say about Caldwell on his conference call yesterday: "In terms of Caldwell, there's a very good center group at the top, which means that he could be probably a fifth round pick this year, where he would've been a third-round pick in other years. It's a very good center group that hurts him a little bit."

 

link: http://blog.al.com/rapsheet/2009/02/mel_ki..._johson_he.html

 

Now, you can look at that two ways. A third round pick in other years, that's decent. But he obviously thinks Caldwell just isn't as good as the top group of centers this year.

 

Kiper's not God, but he's very good at his job.

 

 

I haven't done extensive work on Caldwell. But what you can just find quickly on the net has me worried.

 

I'd like to know what DTs he's played against this year and specifically how he did. I'd like to know if he faced Raji at the Senior Bowl (if he did, that's bad news because only Mack had any success at all against Raji there). There's a lot I'd like to know, but so far I'm not convinced at all.

[Trader]

I don't know if this will happen, but many are dismissing the possibility, and we shouldn't, for just the reasons this site cites.

 

link: http://www.nfldraftdog.com/Mock_Draf...mock_draft.htm

 

Center is one of our two biggest needs. If we only have one guy picked out as our main target at DE and whoever he is he's gone, and if Curry is gone, and Raji as well, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

 

 

 

They also predict us taking Barwin in the second. That would not be bad.

 

If we take Mack at 11. then Brandon should be fired on the spot.

[Thurman#1]

If we take Mack at 11. then Brandon should be fired on the spot.

 

 

 

Yeah, filling one of our two biggest needs with the best guy available at the position, a guy generally considered to be somewhere around the 18th best player in the draft, gosh, yeah, a firing offense for sure. Especially in a draft where if Raji, Curry and whichever guy out of the DEs that the FO likes are gone, there is simply no obvious pick to be made at #11.

 

Yeah, I'm with you, fire him for filling a huge need with a great player. We wouldn't want a competent GM anyway.

[Trader]

I agree that every scout grades these guys differently and depending on the "guru" and the day it seems like you get a different answer. But based on everything I have seen and read about the Centers this year I think Antoine Caldwell may be the best fit. That is based on style of play and where he may fall in the draft, most project 3rd or 4th round. I think that would be a good value for that player and position allowing the Bills to use their first 2 picks on defense and a TE.

 

I agree Caldwell is a fat as the rest of our linemen he would fit right in.

[Trader]

Yeah, filling one of our two biggest needs with the best guy available at the position, a guy generally considered to be somewhere around the 18th best player in the draft, gosh, yeah, a firing offense for sure. Especially in a draft where if Raji, Curry and whichever guy out of the DEs that the FO likes are gone, there is simply no obvious pick to be made at #11.

 

Yeah, I'm with you, fire him for filling a huge need with a great player. We wouldn't want a competent GM anyway.

 

I repeat If we draft Mack at 11 then our entire front office should be fired on the spot.

 

i like Mack but he will be there at 20. The Bills have been squandering their draft choices for years that is why the S-_c-k for 10 straight years.

[BillsFan74]

Yeah, I saw that one too, and it looks to me as if he is GUESSING that Caldwell will stand up to the bull rush. Guessing is just not good enough. Caldwell has proved himself as a nifty guy, but has NOT proved himself against the bull rush, and that is what any new center in Buffalo will face, a bull rush twice a year from the 345 pound Kris Jenkins and twice a year from the 320 pound Wilfork. The Fins generally use a guy who's only around 305, but also have a 350 pounder on the roster in case our guy can't handle big guys.

 

The report you cite says he is "a tremendous chip blocker." That is exactly NOT what we need in the AFC East!!

 

Some of the other reports I saw on Caldwell had him available as far back as the 5th round this year. There is a reason a guy lasts that long and it's not because he has proven himself against all kinds of competitition.

 

-----

 

Also, you found that on fantasyfootballjungle.com, right? But you left out something else from the same page, didn't you, because it didn't fit your point. This is from exactly the same page where you got your quote:

 

 

Antoine Caldwell Scouting Report by Dave S

Pros: Big guy smart player makes good calls at the line! If he makes it to the 4th round esp. the late 4th he is a good value pick for a team looking to roll the dice and upgrade the O line from the inside out. I could easily see a team who is looking for a good back-up the first year and wants to get younger at Center picking him up. I don't see a team drafting Caldwell to start.

Cons: I'm just not sold on him and not sure he can get to the second level in the pro's. Unlike Mack and Luigs I don't see him starting his first year. I would even go as far as saying Unger might be a better prospect.

Overall: I think Caldwell will be a solid player and with some work with a good line coach on his footwork could add great depth to a team willing to wait for production.

 

 

He doesn't see him starting his first year. I see red flags and sirens going off with that report. I see why you didn't include it.

 

 

OK, here's another thing I found, just looking quickly. Here's what Kiper had to say about Caldwell on his conference call yesterday: "In terms of Caldwell, there's a very good center group at the top, which means that he could be probably a fifth round pick this year, where he would've been a third-round pick in other years. It's a very good center group that hurts him a little bit."

 

link: http://blog.al.com/rapsheet/2009/02/mel_ki..._johson_he.html

 

Now, you can look at that two ways. A third round pick in other years, that's decent. But he obviously thinks Caldwell just isn't as good as the top group of centers this year.

 

Kiper's not God, but he's very good at his job.

 

 

I haven't done extensive work on Caldwell. But what you can just find quickly on the net has me worried.

 

I'd like to know what DTs he's played against this year and specifically how he did. I'd like to know if he faced Raji at the Senior Bowl (if he did, that's bad news because only Mack had any success at all against Raji there). There's a lot I'd like to know, but so far I'm not convinced at all.

 

I don't disagree with anything you are saying and try not to oversell prospects which is what all these guys are...just maybe's. I believe you have done your homework and we can all agree a center is a position in need of upgrade. But I look for value picks in the draft and feel the Bills are much better taking another player in Rd 1....not Mack as good as he may become in the future.

[Thurman#1]

I repeat If we draft Mack at 11 then our entire front office should be fired on the spot.

 

i like Mack but he will be there at 20. The Bills have been squandering their draft choices for years that is why the S-_c-k for 10 straight years.

 

 

Repeat it all you like. Doesn't mean it makes sense. Yeah, he'd probably be there at 20, but sometimes you can't trade down.

 

I wouldn't necessarily disagree that our drafting has been bad in places. But you judge a move like this by the results, and nothing else.

[Thurman#1]

I don't disagree with anything you are saying and try not to oversell prospects which is what all these guys are...just maybe's. I believe you have done your homework and we can all agree a center is a position in need of upgrade. But I look for value picks in the draft and feel the Bills are much better taking another player in Rd 1....not Mack as good as he may become in the future.

 

 

Fair enough. Let's agree to disagree. As I've said many times, if three or four specific guys are there at 11, take them. But if they're not, then Mack comes into play. If you want either Mack or Pettigrew, you try to trade down a bit, but that doesn't always work out. If it doesn't, getting Mack should be measured on whether he is a great player for the Bills, and whether our o-line suddenly improves a lot more than one guy would ordinarily make it improve. Which I think it would, having five quality guys there for the first time in maybe 10 - 12 years.

 

But you're right, there are no absolutes in this process. If we don't get Curry, Raji, or a very good DE at 11, and we then don't get Mack or Pettigrew, I will be sad for a bit and then get psyched about whoever we do get. I'm willing to admit that OBD knows a lot more than I do. Unfortunately, knowledge doesn't make them perfect, as we have noticed sometimes. But whoever we pick, I'll support.

 

 

But I will reserve the right to criticize or applaud a few years down the road based on performance. I wanted Ngata instead of Whitner. I still cheer Whitner, I like him, but that doesn't mean it was a good pick.

[8-8 Forever?]

Bastards have a 2010 mock. We're picking #8.

 

 

My guess is we're inside the top 5. 2009 will be ugly. Indy, Carolina, Falcons, Saints, Pats twice, Phins twice.. who are we kidding... this ain't the 2008 schedule...

[Mr. WEO]

The situation with Peters was much of his own doing, then he didn't help things by coming in and dogging it 75 percent of the time. You could almost read the 'The Bills don't care 'bout me, I don't care 'bout them!' on his lips at times. That said, I think his thing may be rectifiable, if the FO pays him enough. And, that said, I hate having a guy with that mindset on this team... but what's done is done.

 

Butler may well have been the team's best OL last year. When he was hurt, Jim Kelly was dead right when he said that hurt big-time. Butler is big, nasty and dedicated and if we had 5 guys who play football like him across the line, it would be lights out. But, hark! Some schlubs on these message boards blame BB for all our problems... wait... it's Chris Kelsay (well, he is a problem, but not the problem)... wait. Now they blame Lindell.... OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

 

Our center situation last year was totally fubar. I can't say it much plainer than "Duke friggin' Preston was the best this team could front." To me, Center is A1, and I'd rather see it filled in high in the draft. Find out who the best guy is and get him and finally solve this problem of being blown back into the QB's face every play. I don't care how. Just friggin' do it, Linda. And if she's too much of a c--- to take a good chance when it looks her in the face, I hope Tom Modrak uses his new inner circle status to tell Ralph what's what, even if he doesn't want to hear the truth about his daughter.

 

I saw a lot of pressure onthe Qb coming from the left side. Less up the middle. If we are itching to blow a #11 on a center, let's just not scratch that itch---let's do what more succesful teams do, trade down for more picks.

 

Modrak has not been in the "inner cricle" until now??

 

Come on! He has been instrumental in every draft since he got here. HE is the ONLY constant in that "brain trust" throughtout his tenure in Buffalo.

[timba]

Repeat it all you like. Doesn't mean it makes sense. Yeah, he'd probably be there at 20, but sometimes you can't trade down.

 

I wouldn't necessarily disagree that our drafting has been bad in places. But you judge a move like this by the results, and nothing else.

 

Watch us be able to trade down and somebody else moves in in front of us and grab him!

 

I would rather we take one of our need positions (DE,C,TE,OLB) and whoever we have rated highest of those positions on the board when we pick we take... There are WAY too many cases where a player is slotted to be drafted at x position and turns out to perform like a y position. There is no sure thing in the draft so why risk losing an opportunity to get a player that you really like and fills a position that you really need? Sure getting an additional draft pick and moving down a few spots would be nice, but is it worth the risk to not get a player you covet?

[Bill from NYC]

I saw a lot of pressure onthe Qb coming from the left side. Less up the middle.

 

I disagree with this. Both centers were blown up all season on passing and running downs.

[UConn James]

I disagree with this. Both centers were blown up all season on passing and running downs.

 

Not to mention that one drive where Duke Preston was flagged twice for false start.

 

False start on the center! On the first one, the announcers were saying how rare that is. And then a minute later he does it again. WTF, he should know exactly when a play begins --- he snaps the ball!

 

Make no mistake, people. Center is 1A; DE is 1B.

[timba]

Not to mention that one drive where Duke Preston was flagged twice for false start.

 

False start on the center! On the first one, the announcers were saying how rare that is. And then a minute later he does it again. WTF, he should know exactly when a play begins --- he snaps the ball!

 

Make no mistake, people. Center is 1A; DE is 1B.

 

It comes down to which will give us a better shot, having a pass rush so the defense can get off the field or improved blocking so our offense can stay on the field.

 

I started this offseason on the DE side of the argument but I'm beginning to sway towards the Center position. The offense has simply been stagnant for the past few years and I wouldn't mind seeing them put up some consistent points. No more of this 3 points vs SF and the Fish... but then a pass rush can lead to more 3 and outs, turnovers, being able to get off the field when it counts.... d*mn i'm back on the fence.

[UConn James]

It comes down to which will give us a better shot, having a pass rush so the defense can get off the field or improved blocking so our offense can stay on the field.

 

I started this offseason on the DE side of the argument but I'm beginning to sway towards the Center position. The offense has simply been stagnant for the past few years and I wouldn't mind seeing them put up some consistent points. No more of this 3 points vs SF and the Fish... but then a pass rush can lead to more 3 and outs, turnovers, being able to get off the field when it counts.... d*mn i'm back on the fence.

 

Well, given the givens, the D didn't do too badly last year, even w/o Schoebel for most of the season. As you write, it's the Offense that has "been stagnant" for awhile... and I don't think that has everything to do w/ the skill players that are on the roster. Scoring points is something we should be doing.

[HotPocket]

Boy they need to update their rankings. At this point they're almost 3 weeks old and with some of the changes that are going on, these picks look really bad.

 

I really like Mack, but not as #11. Is there any way the Bills can trade to the 20s and take him there because he'll still be around at that point. Is there any way we could get one of Phillys 1st rounders and another pick? Bills need quantity desperately.

[Orton's Arm]

The part about troubles blocking 3-4 NTs, that was Mangold's scouting report, not Mack's. Mack showed at the Senior Bowl that he was the only center there who had any success with the 332 pound B.J. Raji. He is the most powerful center this year, and that's what we want and we need.

 

And of course we should take him at #11 in that case. The #11 pick for a pro-bowler in his third year is a good deal. Good question, by the way. Mangold stepped right in that first year and was a superior center instantly. At #11, you want an instant, competent starter who quickly develops into a pro-bowler, and that's what you got with Mangold.

 

Kiper feels Mack will go at 32 to the Steelers, but he is OFTEN projected as far up as #20 and even once or twice as far up as #11.

 

And a team (the Bills) that has serious needs at DE, DT, TE, C and OLT, and some further weaknesses at S, WR, QB, etc. should NOT be trading away it's second and third round picks.

I read the scouting reports to which you'd linked. They convinced me we should seriously consider taking Raji (DT) at #11 overall, if he's available. Then we should trade away our second and third round picks to get a pick somewhere in the 20s, which could then be used on Mack. If no one can block Raji--except, sort of, for Mack--it would make sense to have them both!

 

You point out that this team has a lot of holes, and that, by trading away a third round pick, we'd be filling one less hole. But I feel it's better to do a solid job of filling one hole (Mack) than a so-so job of filling two holes (the second and third round pick). That third round pick in particular may well turn out to be just another guy.

[Magox]

I read the scouting reports to which you'd linked. They convinced me we should seriously consider taking Raji (DT) at #11 overall, if he's available. Then we should trade away our second and third round picks to get a pick somewhere in the 20s, which could then be used on Mack. If no one can block Raji--except, sort of, for Mack--it would make sense to have them both!

 

You point out that this team has a lot of holes, and that, by trading away a third round pick, we'd be filling one less hole. But I feel it's better to do a solid job of filling one hole (Mack) than a so-so job of filling two holes (the second and third round pick). That third round pick in particular may well turn out to be just another guy.

I like your thinking!! makes sense to me

[VJ91]

That is interesting. They also call Pettigrew a "steal" at # 21. Everything will depend on just how good the "inner circle" thinks these guys are, and how much of a say they give to Jauron.

If either one of these guys turn out good, the result would be more points. It is amazing how long this team has been weak at these 2 positions.

 

It's not amazing when you consider how lightly those two positions have been regarded in the Bills' past 10 or 15 drafts!

[Trader]

I don't know if this will happen, but many are dismissing the possibility, and we shouldn't, for just the reasons this site cites.

 

link: http://www.nfldraftdog.com/Mock_Draf...mock_draft.htm

 

Center is one of our two biggest needs. If we only have one guy picked out as our main target at DE and whoever he is he's gone, and if Curry is gone, and Raji as well, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

 

 

 

They also predict us taking Barwin in the second. That would not be bad.

 

I will say this if it came down to Pettigrew or Mack at #11 it would be Mack.