DRAFTDOG.COM: Mack at #11!!!!

[ans4e64]

Mack at 11 is insane, he is simply not worth a first round pick. Furthermore the senior bowl proved he has a problem anchoring against bigger DT's and is better suited in a zone blocking scheme. How would that player help this team? The Bills need an upgrade at center and that should be addressed in the draft in the second or third round.

[Thurman#1]

We have Mack as going at #33 or #35. Much more likely than #11 because of the Senior Bowl week.

Besides. Draft Dog's LAST update was November 30. This is unheard of with some sites updating daily. Must not be spending the time on it this year.

 

 

Then why does it say "UPDATED 1/25/09" at the top of the page?

[Orton's Arm]

This only proves that the perpetual FO shunning of the OL is about on par with fans' thinking.

 

Success requires investment. Getting OL via UFA is uber-expensive to the point of neglecting other areas, and signing retreads means you'll have a crap line which means you'll have a crap offense w/o being able to tell if your skill players were any good. So, those choices both being the 'Building an OL for Dummies' method.... that leaves actually giving a crap about your lines when you're drafting. And maybe if you finally have a complete OL, the skills players the Bills already have --- and most here are clammoring to cut all their heads off --- will be able to do their jobs and have some time rather than reacting to shouts of 'Busted play!' etc.

 

Then again, Linda Bogdan, Ralph's daughter, is the chief OL scout. Let's make it easier on her and just not draft OL besides the 6th or 7th, ever. Don't wanna put her on the hot seat. We'll just make up for her inability to spot a good player/take pretty good odds on someone like Mack, and instead spend $100M on two schlubs in UFA and have John Guy eat the sh-- sandwich.

 

As ever, the way Ralph runs this team is its biggest problem.

I agree with just about everything you've written here. The one thing I'd want to add is that 11th overall is too high to take Mack. If the Bills want to take him, they should either trade down and take him that way, or else package their second and third round picks together to move back into the lower part of the first. But whatever else this team does, it must take a center in the lower first round/second round, period.

[Drew026]

Center in the 3rd round at the highest. TE and legit pass rusher are much higher needs then center.

[Yoho]

It really is. A decade, really. Maybe a bit longer at TE.

 

The Bills have never had a great tight end in 50 years. It is the one position that they will have a difficult time finding anyone decent for all the all time team. When Ernie Warlick and Pete Metzalaers are your best option, you really do not have much to choose from.

[UConn James]

Amazing post UCJ!!!

 

Most Bills Fans will never see this. The board is now cluttered with "blame the quarterback" posts, as if that is really what is wrong with the Bills. Some of it is of course sour grapes, but still.....A 30 year old (or even slightly older) Bills Fan has lived his adult life never having seen what we could do with strong blocking. How f d up is that?

 

Last year, the situation with Peters was obviously bad. It also made a big difference imo when Butler got hurt. He was replaced by garbage. I'm not sure what is wrong with Dockery, but he looked to be standing around way much. Center? Tight End? Please.

 

Jauron was a loser in the cold with Chicago, and he is a loser in Buffalo. He should be a defensive backs coach in a dome. The Bills need a coach and a GM who know how to build a team that is suited for the elements.

 

The situation with Peters was much of his own doing, then he didn't help things by coming in and dogging it 75 percent of the time. You could almost read the 'The Bills don't care 'bout me, I don't care 'bout them!' on his lips at times. That said, I think his thing may be rectifiable, if the FO pays him enough. And, that said, I hate having a guy with that mindset on this team... but what's done is done.

 

Butler may well have been the team's best OL last year. When he was hurt, Jim Kelly was dead right when he said that hurt big-time. Butler is big, nasty and dedicated and if we had 5 guys who play football like him across the line, it would be lights out. But, hark! Some schlubs on these message boards blame BB for all our problems... wait... it's Chris Kelsay (well, he is a problem, but not the problem)... wait. Now they blame Lindell.... OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

 

Our center situation last year was totally fubar. I can't say it much plainer than "Duke friggin' Preston was the best this team could front." To me, Center is A1, and I'd rather see it filled in high in the draft. Find out who the best guy is and get him and finally solve this problem of being blown back into the QB's face every play. I don't care how. Just friggin' do it, Linda. And if she's too much of a c--- to take a good chance when it looks her in the face, I hope Tom Modrak uses his new inner circle status to tell Ralph what's what, even if he doesn't want to hear the truth about his daughter.

[Thurman#1]

Butler may well have been the team's best OL last year. When he was hurt, Jim Kelly was dead right when he said that hurt big-time. Butler is big, nasty and dedicated and if we had 5 guys who play football like him across the line, it would be lights out. But, hark! Some schlubs on these message boards blame BB for all our problems... wait... it's Chris Kelsay (well, he is a problem, but not the problem)... wait. Now they blame Lindell.... OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

 

Our center situation last year was totally fubar. I can't say it much plainer than "Duke friggin' Preston was the best this team could front." To me, Center is A1, and I'd rather see it filled in high in the draft. Find out who the best guy is and get him and finally solve this problem of being blown back into the QB's face every play. I don't care how.

 

 

Yeah, good points about the center position.

 

Lots of people say "He's only a center, we don't have to draft one high," but what they should be saying is "Center is an absolutely crucial part of the OL, crucial, and a huge need for us, arguably our largest offensive need. Just get a very good player there. Do what needs to be done."

[Thurman#1]

Hmmm. Breaking news, not exactly huge, but still ... Chris Brown reports Kiper's views of the centers and also Chris talked to "some NFL scouts" who reported that Mack would better fit the Bills system.

 

link: http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2009/02/12/w...-centers-going/

 

Kiper says Mack goes first of all the centers, in the first round, to the Steelers. That would be the rich getting richer.

 

Chris Brown says "Talking to some NFL scouts, it sounds as if Mack would be a better fit for the Bills. While Unger is more mobile and get pull and get out on the edges on toss and sweep plays better, Mack is more adept at holding his ground inside against the big DTs.

 

"That’s far more important a quality to have if you’re going to play in the AFC East against the big boys inside in New England, New York and Miami. Unfortunately if Kiper’s mock is right Mack won’t be there for the Bills to consider in round two. "

 

Obviously, the NFL scouts Chris gets to talk to are most likely scouts for the Bills. Chris must have asked them about this, as he has probably noticed all the uproar on these boards about centers.

 

 

Obviously, Kiper's not perfect, nor are NFL scouts, but this just adds to the mountain of opinion out there, a huge majority of which says that Mack is better than Unger and would fit the Bills needs better.

[BillsFan74]

Hmmm. Breaking news, not exactly huge, but still ... Chris Brown reports Kiper's views of the centers and also Chris talked to "some NFL scouts" who reported that Mack would better fit the Bills system.

 

link: http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2009/02/12/w...-centers-going/

 

Kiper says Mack goes first of all the centers, in the first round, to the Steelers. That would be the rich getting richer.

 

Chris Brown says "Talking to some NFL scouts, it sounds as if Mack would be a better fit for the Bills. While Unger is more mobile and get pull and get out on the edges on toss and sweep plays better, Mack is more adept at holding his ground inside against the big DTs.

 

"That’s far more important a quality to have if you’re going to play in the AFC East against the big boys inside in New England, New York and Miami. Unfortunately if Kiper’s mock is right Mack won’t be there for the Bills to consider in round two. "

 

Obviously, the NFL scouts Chris gets to talk to are most likely scouts for the Bills. Chris must have asked them about this, as he has probably noticed all the uproar on these boards about centers.

 

 

Obviously, Kiper's not perfect, nor are NFL scouts, but this just adds to the mountain of opinion out there, a huge majority of which says that Mack is better than Unger and would fit the Bills needs better.

 

I agree that every scout grades these guys differently and depending on the "guru" and the day it seems like you get a different answer. But based on everything I have seen and read about the Centers this year I think Antoine Caldwell may be the best fit. That is based on style of play and where he may fall in the draft, most project 3rd or 4th round. I think that would be a good value for that player and position allowing the Bills to use their first 2 picks on defense and a TE.

[Thurman#1]

I agree that every scout grades these guys differently and depending on the "guru" and the day it seems like you get a different answer. But based on everything I have seen and read about the Centers this year I think Antoine Caldwell may be the best fit. That is based on style of play and where he may fall in the draft, most project 3rd or 4th round. I think that would be a good value for that player and position allowing the Bills to use their first 2 picks on defense and a TE.

 

 

Why do you think his style of play fits the Bills?

 

From what I can tell from a quick cruise through the sites, Caldwell's strength is that he's nifty, he moves well, gets to the second level and has good lateral movement. But we are going to need somebody who can take on 3 nose tackles that our division foes will put right over his head.

 

That means we are going to need someone very physical and tough.

[Astrobot]

Then why does it say "UPDATED 1/25/09" at the top of the page?

That's why I capitalized "LAST" in my post.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

For what it's worth, and again this is just information for consumption, Jets center Nick Mangold was selected 29th overall in 2006 (yes, the year we took Donte Whitner). His draft grade at the time from Scouts Inc. was a 92.

 

Alex Mack's grade this year is a 90, again for what it's worth. By their grading system 90-100 points is a guy who's going to become an elite player.

 

Mangold made his first Pro Bowl this year in his third season.

 

The scouting report on Mangold at the time is similar to that of most young centers:

 

"Shows good size potential but still needs to add bulk and improve his lower-body strength...He doesn't possess overwhelming bulk and will have some matchup problems against massive two-gap NT types. He plays with good leverage but lacks an ideal base. Gets driven back into the pocket at times versus powerful bull rushers. Is not an overpowering phone booth blocker."

 

If we knew Mack would become a Pro Bowler in his 3rd season, would we take him at #11?

[Orton's Arm]

For what it's worth, and again this is just information for consumption, Jets center Nick Mangold was selected 29th overall in 2006 (yes, the year we took Donte Whitner). His draft grade at the time from Scouts Inc. was a 92.

 

Alex Mack's grade this year is a 90, again for what it's worth. By their grading system 90-100 points is a guy who's going to become an elite player.

 

Mangold made his first Pro Bowl this year in his third season.

 

The scouting report on Mangold at the time is similar to that of most young centers:

 

"Shows good size potential but still needs to add bulk and improve his lower-body strength...He doesn't possess overwhelming bulk and will have some matchup problems against massive two-gap NT types. He plays with good leverage but lacks an ideal base. Gets driven back into the pocket at times versus powerful bull rushers. Is not an overpowering phone booth blocker."

 

If we knew Mack would become a Pro Bowler in his 3rd season, would we take him at #11?

If I knew he was going to be a Pro Bowler, I'd definitely take him. But probably not at #11. If we don't take him, it sounds like he'll go very late in the first, or early in the second. Why spend more than you have to (in terms of draft picks) to get a player you want?

 

And the other part of your post--about his troubles blocking 3-4 NTs--lends added point to this. Most of the reason we need a center in the first place is because no center on our current roster has ever successfully blocked a big, 3-4 NT. If there's doubt about whether Mack can succeed in this crucial task, it's all the more reason to not overspend (in terms of draft picks) to get him.

 

My dream scenario would be to take an impact defensive lineman at #11, then to use our second and third round picks to trade back into the first for Mack.

[Bill from NYC]

For what it's worth, and again this is just information for consumption, Jets center Nick Mangold was selected 29th overall in 2006 (yes, the year we took Donte Whitner). His draft grade at the time from Scouts Inc. was a 92.

 

Alex Mack's grade this year is a 90, again for what it's worth. By their grading system 90-100 points is a guy who's going to become an elite player.

 

Mangold made his first Pro Bowl this year in his third season.

 

The scouting report on Mangold at the time is similar to that of most young centers:

 

"Shows good size potential but still needs to add bulk and improve his lower-body strength...He doesn't possess overwhelming bulk and will have some matchup problems against massive two-gap NT types. He plays with good leverage but lacks an ideal base. Gets driven back into the pocket at times versus powerful bull rushers. Is not an overpowering phone booth blocker."

 

If we knew Mack would become a Pro Bowler in his 3rd season, would we take him at #11?

 

Btw, I think that Mangold deserved to be in the probowl in his rookie season fwiw.

[BillsFan74]

Why do you think his style of play fits the Bills?

 

From what I can tell from a quick cruise through the sites, Caldwell's strength is that he's nifty, he moves well, gets to the second level and has good lateral movement. But we are going to need somebody who can take on 3 nose tackles that our division foes will put right over his head.

 

That means we are going to need someone very physical and tough.

 

Here is one scouting report;

Pros: Antoine Caldwell #59 – Offensive Center –When Caldwell was a freshman, Alabama was struggling with injuries at the center position. Caldwell was placed in at center during the Cotton Bowl, and has kept the job ever since. The next season, Caldwell was voted offensive captain as a sophomore, so he’s developed a leadership quality from an early stage of his career. Caldwell is a tremendous chip blocker who can block a defensive lineman and quickly move to the second tier of the defense to hit a linebacker or safety. Caldwell has excellent footwork during pass blocking and can maintain his blocks very well. Caldwell maintains a low center of gravity which is excellent when he moves to the NFL level.

Cons: Antoine Caldwell has very little weaknesses, although he's listed as 305 pounds; but his playing weight is more like 295 pounds. Can Caldwell handle a bull rush from a large NFL defensive tackle? I think he can, based on his good technique and center of gravity.

Overall: Antoine Calwell should be taken in the second round. He won't be available in the third round.

 

So I don't know how is right, but based on what I saw of him at the senior bowl he may be a value pick in the third round. So would Lugis or Eric Wood. I feel strongly that Mack is a reach at 11.

[Orton's Arm]

Center in the 3rd round at the highest. TE and legit pass rusher are much higher needs then center.

I disagree. Nothing is a greater need on this team than center. For six games a year, our offense is consigned to complete futility. During those six games, we face 3-4 defenses, run by division rivals, which feature NTs that simply can't be blocked by any center on our current roster. With some ugly NT arriving in the backfield almost immediately, all the offensive weapons in the world are worthless.

 

Take a look at the offensive weapons we have right now. If it was a passing play, the Bills could line up Evans and Steve Johnson on the outside, Reed in the slot, Fine at TE, and Jackson in the backfield. This isn't exactly an all-star cast of skill players, but it isn't exactly chopped liver either. Give the QB decent pass protection, and chances are at least one of those guys will come open.

 

Fine will probably give us moderately better production as a pass-catcher than we're used to seeing from players like Robert Royal. It's not ideal, but--with some of the other players we have at skill positions--it's good enough to get us by, at least for now.

 

I agree with what you wrote about building the defensive line: a good pass rush from the front four is a must if the Tampa 2 is going to work. But we also need to build the offensive line. A functional offensive line is a must for any offensive scheme to work.

[Thurman#1]

That's why I capitalized "LAST" in my post.

 

 

 

You're still not making sense. Your post said his LAST update was in November, 3 months ago, and the site shows an update on January 25th, what, less than 3 weeks ago.

[Thurman#1]

If I knew he was going to be a Pro Bowler, I'd definitely take him. But probably not at #11. If we don't take him, it sounds like he'll go very late in the first, or early in the second. Why spend more than you have to (in terms of draft picks) to get a player you want?

 

And the other part of your post--about his troubles blocking 3-4 NTs--lends added point to this. Most of the reason we need a center in the first place is because no center on our current roster has ever successfully blocked a big, 3-4 NT. If there's doubt about whether Mack can succeed in this crucial task, it's all the more reason to not overspend (in terms of draft picks) to get him.

 

My dream scenario would be to take an impact defensive lineman at #11, then to use our second and third round picks to trade back into the first for Mack.

 

 

The part about troubles blocking 3-4 NTs, that was Mangold's scouting report, not Mack's. Mack showed at the Senior Bowl that he was the only center there who had any success with the 332 pound B.J. Raji. He is the most powerful center this year, and that's what we want and we need.

 

And of course we should take him at #11 in that case. The #11 pick for a pro-bowler in his third year is a good deal. Good question, by the way. Mangold stepped right in that first year and was a superior center instantly. At #11, you want an instant, competent starter who quickly develops into a pro-bowler, and that's what you got with Mangold.

 

Kiper feels Mack will go at 32 to the Steelers, but he is OFTEN projected as far up as #20 and even once or twice as far up as #11.

 

And a team (the Bills) that has serious needs at DE, DT, TE, C and OLT, and some further weaknesses at S, WR, QB, etc. should NOT be trading away it's second and third round picks.

[Thurman#1]

Btw, I think that Mangold deserved to be in the probowl in his rookie season fwiw.

 

 

Yeah, I don't remember who the Pro Bowl competition was that year, but Mangold instantly made the Jets o-line a lot tougher and better. He is EXACTLY the kind of guy you hope that you get at #11.

[Thurman#1]

I disagree. Nothing is a greater need on this team than center. For six games a year, our offense is consigned to complete futility. During those six games, we face 3-4 defenses, run by division rivals, which feature NTs that simply can't be blocked by any center on our current roster. With some ugly NT arriving in the backfield almost immediately, all the offensive weapons in the world are worthless.

 

Take a look at the offensive weapons we have right now. If it was a passing play, the Bills could line up Evans and Steve Johnson on the outside, Reed in the slot, Fine at TE, and Jackson in the backfield. This isn't exactly an all-star cast of skill players, but it isn't exactly chopped liver either. Give the QB decent pass protection, and chances are at least one of those guys will come open.

 

Fine will probably give us moderately better production as a pass-catcher than we're used to seeing from players like Robert Royal. It's not ideal, but--with some of the other players we have at skill positions--it's good enough to get us by, at least for now.

 

I agree with what you wrote about building the defensive line: a good pass rush from the front four is a must if the Tampa 2 is going to work. But we also need to build the offensive line. A functional offensive line is a must for any offensive scheme to work.

 

 

Exactly. Thank you. Sometimes people here seem to think that people at the skill positions are somehow more valuable than the big guys up front, as if a TE is MORE important than a C to an offense. The opposite is true.