4-3 versus 3-4

[Trader]

It would appear that there are many more players available in the draft and in FA that fit the 3-4 than those that fit the 4-3.

 

Buffalo is a tough sell for vets and free agents. The pool of players appears to be quite small that we ge to pick from.

 

So why do we play a 4-3 defense as our primary package?

[lets_go_bills]

Because the 3-4 is more and more common in the NFL these days, players are now being projected as to how they may fit in a 3-4. It's not so much that these guys are better off in the 3-4, it's just that draft analysts have to take into account that NFL teams play both the 4-3 and the 3-4 and so they have to project how guys will fit into each scheme.

[BuffaloBlood]

Yea anytime you see a guy listed as a DE/OLB all it means is that hes a pass rusher in a 43 but has the athletic ability to prolly translate to a OLB. Guys like Jason Taylor, Demarcus Ware, and T-sizzle (yes I used the nickname) can play either. There are guys though that are strictly 43 ends like Aaron Kampman and Aaron Shobel. I know Kampman is possibly going to try and convert this year but I think that will be a bust.

[Bill from NYC]

So why do we play a 4-3 defense as our primary package?

 

When Wade Phillipps ran our 3/4, it was an attack defense. Big Ted clogged up the middle and we had Bruce, and even Bryce for a while. Hansen even provided a good amount of pressure because the blockers were busy with those other guys.

 

Jauron drafts first round dbs and plays them a mile off the ball. He doesn't attack; the idea is to wait for the other team to make a mistake. This dumb defense represents his cowardly (some would call it conservative) philosophy.

[BuffaloBill]

When Wade Phillipps ran our 3/4, it was an attack defense. Big Ted clogged up the middle and we had Bruce, and even Bryce for a while. Hansen even provided a good amount of pressure because the blockers were busy with those other guys.

 

Jauron drafts first round dbs and plays them a mile off the ball. He doesn't attack; the idea is to wait for the other team to make a mistake. This dumb defense represents his cowardly (some would call it conservative) philosophy.

 

 

amen ...nuff said

[silvermike]

Jauron drafts first round dbs and plays them a mile off the ball. He doesn't attack; the idea is to wait for the other team to make a mistake. This dumb defense represents his cowardly (some would call it conservative) philosophy.

 

The Cover-2 got an unnaturally good reputation from the Colts, where a conservative, wait-for-a-mistake defense was perfect. Peyton Manning was (almost) never going to make a mistake, so you just had to wait for the other guy to, and try not to give up touchdowns.

 

Then with the Bears and the Bucs, you had the talent to take advantage of every single mistake. A missed block was a Warren Sapp sack, a an overthrow was a John Lynch pick. And in Minnesota, the other successful Cover-2 scheme, you have the best defensive line in the league providing enough smother to let the DBs really get some picks.

 

The Bills chose a defensive system that required an excellent defensive line, landed a bust in John McCargo, and then gave up on the position in the draft. Chris Ellis, CJ Ah You, and Anthony Hargrove amount to the total Jauron investment in the DE position, and they combined for 0 snaps last season.

[BuffaloBill]

The Bills chose a defensive system that required an excellent defensive line, landed a bust in John McCargo, and then gave up on the position in the draft. Chris Ellis, CJ Ah You, and Anthony Hargrove amount to the total Jauron investment in the DE position, and they combined for 0 snaps last season.

 

Outside of Stroud no real investment in DT either

[Magox]

The Cover-2 got an unnaturally good reputation from the Colts, where a conservative, wait-for-a-mistake defense was perfect. Peyton Manning was (almost) never going to make a mistake, so you just had to wait for the other guy to, and try not to give up touchdowns.

 

Then with the Bears and the Bucs, you had the talent to take advantage of every single mistake. A missed block was a Warren Sapp sack, a an overthrow was a John Lynch pick. And in Minnesota, the other successful Cover-2 scheme, you have the best defensive line in the league providing enough smother to let the DBs really get some picks.

 

The Bills chose a defensive system that required an excellent defensive line, landed a bust in John McCargo, and then gave up on the position in the draft. Chris Ellis, CJ Ah You, and Anthony Hargrove amount to the total Jauron investment in the DE position, and they combined for 0 snaps last season.

 

agreed

 

It's not that the tampa 2 system is the problem, it is the personnel that we are lacking. We don't have the DE's to make this sytem work properly. We don't apply enough pressure. Look at Tampa, they had Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp, The Indianapolis colts had Freeny, The Vikings have the Pat and Kevin Williams and Jared Allen, The Bears had Tank Johnson Tommy Harrison (who was playing as good as any dt at that time) Alex Brown Ogunluye and not too shabby Linebackers in Urlacher and Briggs.

 

There is a common denominator there that we are lacking. Defensive line pressure.

 

These Defenses worked well because of the personnel. So there is nothing wrong with the system, we just need more passrushers.

[Thurman#1]

It would appear that there are many more players available in the draft and in FA that fit the 3-4 than those that fit the 4-3.

 

Buffalo is a tough sell for vets and free agents. The pool of players appears to be quite small that we ge to pick from.

 

So why do we play a 4-3 defense as our primary package?

 

 

1) Many of the best defenses in football are 3 - 4 defenses. However, many of the best defenses in football are 4 - 3 defenses. Pittsburgh, for example, is the best defense in football. The Steelers run a 4 - 3. Tennessee is the second-best defense in football. They are also a 4 -3.

 

2) Switching back and forth from one to the other means that almost every position in the defense needs a different kind of player than what you have there before the switch. Wholesale personnel changes, often 8 - 10 guys, need to be changed. And you often can't get good value in trades because everybody knows you can't use the players from the previous scheme anymore, so you will have to cut them or at least not get good value in trades because you're operating from HAVING to trade or cut them.

 

3) Think of the change between systems as a massive anchor requiring a two-year changeover, two years during which the team will have no chance to have a good defense. The team would be driving with the emergency brake on for the next two years.

 

That's why.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

1) Many of the best defenses in football are 3 - 4 defenses. However, many of the best defenses in football are 4 - 3 defenses. Pittsburgh, for example, is the best defense in football. The Steelers run a 4 - 3. Tennessee is the second-best defense in football. They are also a 4 -3.

 

2) Switching back and forth from one to the other means that almost every position in the defense needs a different kind of player than what you have there before the switch. Wholesale personnel changes, often 8 - 10 guys, need to be changed. And you often can't get good value in trades because everybody knows you can't use the players from the previous scheme anymore, so you will have to cut them or at least not get good value in trades because you're operating from HAVING to trade or cut them.

 

3) Think of the change between systems as a massive anchor requiring a two-year changeover, two years during which the team will have no chance to have a good defense. The team would be driving with the emergency brake on for the next two years.

 

That's why.

The Steelers' base defense is 3-4.

[Bill from NYC]

agreed

 

It's not that the tampa 2 system is the problem, it is the personnel that we are lacking. We don't have the DE's to make this sytem work properly. We don't apply enough pressure. Look at Tampa, they had Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp, The Indianapolis colts had Freeny, The Vikings have the Pat and Kevin Williams and Jared Allen, The Bears had Tank Johnson Tommy Harrison (who was playing as good as any dt at that time) Alex Brown Ogunluye and not too shabby Linebackers in Urlacher and Briggs.

 

There is a common denominator there that we are lacking. Defensive line pressure.

 

These Defenses worked well because of the personnel. So there is nothing wrong with the system, we just need more passrushers.

 

Our DL is also weak against the run, especially on 3rd and short. Williams is ultimately too small, and Johnson gets tossed around almost as much as Kelsay.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Why can't I resist posting on every "we need to run a 3-4" thread?

 

It's probably because, like you guys, I miss our old 3-4 and see every 4-3 version we've run as this soft, pressureless defense.

 

But realistically, personnel or not, Jauron isn't going to run a 3-4. He and Fewell are Tampa 2 guys. The best we can hope for us that we draft some stud DT and DE that can generate more of a push.

[silvermike]

In 1999, why were we running a 3-4 when we had Pat Williams and Ted Washington at tackle? I don't remember - were they alternating in the inside spot with Smith and Hansen playing end? Or were we giving different looks, either with one of them at end on running downs, or an occasional 4-3 base?

[bizell]

In 1999, why were we running a 3-4 when we had Pat Williams and Ted Washington at tackle? I don't remember - were they alternating in the inside spot with Smith and Hansen playing end? Or were we giving different looks, either with one of them at end on running downs, or an occasional 4-3 base?

Hmm.

 

If I remember correctly, we switched to a 3-4 to get Sam Cowart onto the field.

[SuperKillerRobots]

1) Many of the best defenses in football are 3 - 4 defenses. However, many of the best defenses in football are 4 - 3 defenses. Pittsburgh, for example, is the best defense in football. The Steelers run a 4 - 3. Tennessee is the second-best defense in football. They are also a 4 -3.

 

2) Switching back and forth from one to the other means that almost every position in the defense needs a different kind of player than what you have there before the switch. Wholesale personnel changes, often 8 - 10 guys, need to be changed. And you often can't get good value in trades because everybody knows you can't use the players from the previous scheme anymore, so you will have to cut them or at least not get good value in trades because you're operating from HAVING to trade or cut them.

 

3) Think of the change between systems as a massive anchor requiring a two-year changeover, two years during which the team will have no chance to have a good defense. The team would be driving with the emergency brake on for the next two years.

 

That's why.

 

Las tiem we had a big snow storm here, I actually forgot to let the parking brake out when I drove to work and I couldn't understand why the car wanted to spin out everytime I turned the wheel.

[Orton's Arm]

In 1999, why were we running a 3-4 when we had Pat Williams and Ted Washington at tackle? I don't remember - were they alternating in the inside spot with Smith and Hansen playing end? Or were we giving different looks, either with one of them at end on running downs, or an occasional 4-3 base?

Pat Williams was the backup NT while Ted Washington was here. There were also times when the Bills went to their "big" package (or whatever they called it) with both Washington and Williams on the field at the same time. IIRC, it was still a 3-4--but with Williams as a DE, and Washington as NT. It was surprisingly difficult for the other teams' OLs to get a good push against our DL when both those guys were on the field at the same time!

[PistolPeaTear]

can we ban this topic from the board?