Fezmid Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 it's called theft of services It's not that cut and dry. Lots of people/businesses/cities provide free WiFi. How is the end user supposed to know which is some doorknob who doesn't know how to use his wireless router and which are real access points (perhaps provided by the city - aka: your tax dollars)?
The Dean Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 If this were a Pollyanna world we would not need locks on our doors or security codes. But it isn't a Pollyanna world, and therefore the owner is as much to blame, as he should have "taken reasonable steps" to protect his property". I concur. However, if you leave your door open, it isn't "OK" to ransack your house because you "deserve it".
The Dean Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 If this were a Pollyanna world we would not need locks on our doors or security codes. But it isn't a Pollyanna world, and therefore the owner is as much to blame, as he should have "taken reasonable steps" to protect his property". I concur. However, if you leave your door open, it isn't "OK" to ransack your house because you "deserve it". And, to address the "theft of services" argument, it just might be. But, if if your product is laying in a bin market "Free: Take One" with other similar products, that are legitimately free, it's hard to fault the person who picks your product out of the pile.
VABills Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 I concur. However, if you leave your door open, it isn't "OK" to ransack your house because you "deserve it". And, to address the "theft of services" argument, it just might be. But, if if your product is laying in a bin market "Free: Take One" with other similar products, that are legitimately free, it's hard to fault the person who picks your product out of the pile. Do you turn off your outside spigot and put away your hose everyday? If you don't and your neighbor uses it to water his lawn what do you think is going to happen to him when he gets caught? It will be either theft of services or theft of public utilities. Better yet, go use the fire hydrant without a meter to fill your pool. Wanna guess what happens if you get caught? Just because it's there gives you no right whatsoever.
The Dean Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Do you turn off your outside spigot and put away your hose everyday? If you don't and your neighbor uses it to water his lawn what do you think is going to happen to him when he gets caught? It will be either theft of services or theft of public utilities. Better yet, go use the fire hydrant without a meter to fill your pool. Wanna guess what happens if you get caught? Just because it's there gives you no right whatsoever. Which doesn't address my analogy, at all.
VABills Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 In my state, larceny of a wireless signal is a misdemeanor. In a lot of states it's a felony.
extrahammer Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 I think you guys are debating over the best analogy more than anything. Sometimes it's best to go with the apples and oranges.
Alaska Darin Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 If I use my neighbor's wireless internet to download movies and burn them to DVDs, is that more or less illegal than throwing a cup of beer at Ron Artest? There are few people here who know how !@#$ing funny that really is...
PromoTheRobot Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Do you turn off your outside spigot and put away your hose everyday? If you don't and your neighbor uses it to water his lawn what do you think is going to happen to him when he gets caught? It will be either theft of services or theft of public utilities. Better yet, go use the fire hydrant without a meter to fill your pool. Wanna guess what happens if you get caught? Just because it's there gives you no right whatsoever. Except that a neighbor would have to set foot on your property and that is trespassing. A better analogy is if your neighbor's lawn sprinklers sprayed far enough to reach your lawn. Would you be guilty of theft then? PTR
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Do you turn off your outside spigot and put away your hose everyday? If you don't and your neighbor uses it to water his lawn what do you think is going to happen to him when he gets caught? It will be either theft of services or theft of public utilities. Better yet, go use the fire hydrant without a meter to fill your pool. Wanna guess what happens if you get caught? Just because it's there gives you no right whatsoever. A fire hydrant takes a wrench to open it... That is like using the a password. Anyway how many children on hot days open the hyrdant and enjoy the water... The cops don't bust them, they just shut the thing off and tell the children to scram. Hooking a hose up is like going into your neighbor's house and and finding the password to the log on. I agree with Fez... If it isn't protected, it is assumd to be free since many places offer free WiFi. Simple, isn't it?
Fezmid Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Do you turn off your outside spigot and put away your hose everyday? If you don't and your neighbor uses it to water his lawn what do you think is going to happen to him when he gets caught? Your analagy still sucks. As someone else said, a better example is if your neighbor had a sprinkler and the water was landing on your property and you decided to put a jug out to capture the water for your own use. Is that "theft of service?" Of course not. Nobody's talking about going over to the neighbor's house and turning anything or activating anything. The neighbor is actively throwing the signal (water) onto your property -- and lots of places do that with the intent on people using it. How can someone defend the wireless router owner for not knowing any better, but not give the same defense to the end user who doesn't know whether the signal is free intentionally or because the wireless router owner is a moron?
Fezmid Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 In my state, larceny of a wireless signal is a misdemeanor. And I guarantee that law has never actually been tested in court. Just because it's a law, doesn't make it enforcable.
The Dean Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 And I guarantee that law has never actually been tested in court. Just because it's a law, doesn't make it enforcable. Depending on the circumstances, it just might be enforceable, but it won't be like the situations discussed, here.
thebug Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Depending on the circumstances, it just might be enforceable, but it won't be like the situations discussed, here. Recent talk in Canada suggests they may make it a crime not to secure your own connection because of the threat of terrorists and criminals using these open connections. I probably setup 125 wireless routers last year and about half of the people had no Idea about wireless security and how others could use their connection if not secured properly.
GG Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 And again, this thread says more about people's ethics than it does about their legal reasoning.
Fezmid Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 And again, this thread says more about people's ethics than it does about their legal reasoning. Why? How do you figure out which wireless networks are open for everyone and which are open because the owner doesn't know any better?
GG Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Why? How do you figure out which wireless networks are open for everyone and which are open because the owner doesn't know any better? Oh, I don't know. Maybe little hints like being in the middle of an all residential neighborhood, vs being in a public space, where the router SSID says "FREE PUBLIC WIFI" I think that might be a tip off. Yeah keep rationalizing things that it's ethically ok to take someone's stuff because they didn't take the the precautions to secure it.
Fezmid Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Oh, I don't know. Maybe little hints like being in the middle of an all residential neighborhood, vs being in a public space, where the router SSID says "FREE PUBLIC WIFI" I think that might be a tip off. Yeah keep rationalizing things that it's ethically ok to take someone's stuff because they didn't take the the precautions to secure it. Lots of cities offer free WiFi that you can receive even in a residential neighborhood. Plus - as has been discussed, PCs and phones are generally set (by default) to connect to the strongest wireless signal it can find. Try again?
IDBillzFan Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Oh, I don't know. Maybe little hints like being in the middle of an all residential neighborhood, vs being in a public space, where the router SSID says "FREE PUBLIC WIFI" I think that might be a tip off. Yeah keep rationalizing things that it's ethically ok to take someone's stuff because they didn't take the the precautions to secure it. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the people who are using other people's unprotected wireless networks without their permission are just ignorant? Maybe someone should explain to them how things work. But until that happens, their ignorance can be forgiven. Didn't think about that, did you...?
VABills Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Did you ever stop to think that maybe the people who are using other people's unprotected wireless networks without their permission are just ignorant? Maybe someone should explain to them how things work. But until that happens, their ignorance can be forgiven. Didn't think about that, did you...? Ignorance of a law is not a valid defense. As to Fez, several people have already been taken to court on the stealing of wireless. I know several high profile cases happened in Florida, california and I believe Ohio in the last couple years.
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