Sources: Cassel formally accepts franchise tag....

[VOR]

So you're saying it would be better to "pay for potential" on some college boy than for a guy who won 11 games in his first starting season since high school?? Wow. Hey, I think there is a spot for you in the "inner circle" of Ralph's "brain trust".

Would it be "better?" I don't know, I'm not the guy drafting or paying these guys. But from watching the workings of the NFL over the past couple decades, I'd say that yes, the NFL favors potential to guys who have proven that they're not worth a ton of money, like Cassel.

 

And Cassel couldn't beat the good teams in his first year and only 11 games? Hey, maybe the Ptriots will trade up or swap 1st rounders so they can replace the obviously problematic Matt Cassell!

Well by golly, Cassel allegedly "improved" week to week. Yet his game against the Steelers was poor for an alleged "franchise QB," and his game against the Seahawks was nothing to write home about. Yet what you're saying is that some team should pay him $14M a year and trade a 1st for him, because he threw for multiple TD's and yards against bad defenses and is definitely going to get better? Because 4 years in the league with the same team and system, 11 starts (prior to playing the Steelers), and taking over the reigns of the best offense in NFL history weren't enough?

 

Perhaps you missed the Patriots' 2007 season. The same O-line had no problems protecting Brady, allowing 21 sacks, whereas Cassel took 47 sacks. The offensive output in 2007 WRT scoring was also close to double what it was this past season. It's not like Cassel took over a bad offense, although it's apparent by your previous post that you're blaming Moss, which is pretty funny.

 

And, again, take a look at Russell's contract in Oakland. Whoever picks that QB 1st (Detroit), will pay more than $60 million for "potential" (how's that working out for Oakland so far--over $30 million invested at this point, how many wins?). I don't know who was the last QB franchised and traded, so I am not so sure that whoever gets Cassel will need to offer a contract with "an average" of $14 mil a year.

The first overall pick gets insane money. On that much I think we can all agree. But using the Raiders as your shining example is your first mistake. Russell wasn't worth the 1st overall, the Raiders reached, and a team like the Lions only has to go back 2 years to see what a mistake reaching for a QB with the 1st overall pick is. There's no QB even approaching Russell's freakishness (size and arm strength).

 

Trading the 20th overall pick would make more sense, but again it all depends on the numbers. And given the history of traded franchise players, it's far more plausible to believe the NFLPA will have a hand in making-sure the integrity of the franchise tag gets preserved, than it is to believe the NFLPA will make an exception for Matt "right place, right time" Cassel. At worst he gets a $14.65M payday next year for being franchised when he had no right to be.

[Magox]

It was a good decision to franchise Cassell. Can you say insurance.

 

IF Brady, and that is a big IF, is not able to play or gets reinjured, they have a guy that can come in and play at a high level in their offensive system. If Brady were to get reinjured and was not able to play and they didn't have Cassell, then I think it's obvious that they would have some major hurdles to overcome. Cassell knows the system he has been with them a few years and it would be very difficult to find someone that could step in and be more successful than him. So $14 Million to insure that you get good qb play for a surefire playoff team with realistic aspirations to go to the big show in their view was worth it.

 

Not to mention that by franchising him, if someone desperate of qb that is looking to reach, offers them something ridiculous on draft day, then they always do have that option to trade him. And we all know that no team ever reaches for a percieved franchise qb

[Mr. WEO]

Would it be "better?" I don't know, I'm not the guy drafting or paying these guys. But from watching the workings of the NFL over the past couple decades, I'd say that yes, the NFL favors potential to guys who have proven that they're not worth a ton of money, like Cassel.

 

 

Well by golly, Cassel allegedly "improved" week to week. Yet his game against the Steelers was poor for an alleged "franchise QB," and his game against the Seahawks was nothing to write home about. Yet what you're saying is that some team should pay him $14M a year and trade a 1st for him, because he threw for multiple TD's and yards against bad defenses and is definitely going to get better? Because 4 years in the league with the same team and system, 11 starts (prior to playing the Steelers), and taking over the reigns of the best offense in NFL history weren't enough?

 

Perhaps you missed the Patriots' 2007 season. The same O-line had no problems protecting Brady, allowing 21 sacks, whereas Cassel took 47 sacks. The offensive output in 2007 WRT scoring was also close to double what it was this past season. It's not like Cassel took over a bad offense, although it's apparent by your previous post that you're blaming Moss, which is pretty funny.

 

 

The first overall pick gets insane money. On that much I think we can all agree. But using the Raiders as your shining example is your first mistake. Russell wasn't worth the 1st overall, the Raiders reached, and a team like the Lions only has to go back 2 years to see what a mistake reaching for a QB with the 1st overall pick is. There's no QB even approaching Russell's freakishness (size and arm strength).

 

Trading the 20th overall pick would make more sense, but again it all depends on the numbers. And given the history of traded franchise players, it's far more plausible to believe the NFLPA will have a hand in making-sure the integrity of the franchise tag gets preserved, than it is to believe the NFLPA will make an exception for Matt "right place, right time" Cassel. At worst he gets a $14.65M payday next year for being franchised when he had no right to be.

 

Well, Cassel may not be a "franchise QB" but that point is moot---he has been franchised by the Pats. The reason they did so has been well explained by others here. You can disagree that it was a wise move, I guess--but that is a different argument. Knock yourself out.

 

The simple fact is thet the guy surprised everyone in the league (and everyone here, no doubt---hence the hating) with his level of play. I didn't blame Moss--why would I? I thought Cassel had a great year, given his history (zero experience). I simply pointed out that Moss's career clearly shows that he needs to be matched with a top QB or else he's not a top 5 WR. In a great offensive system, he thrives. Same for Welker. Systems guys all.

 

Cassel played poorly against the Steeler's D? Wow, OK. You got me there. But I actually am saying (for the third time) that another team may not have to pay $14 mil per year to get him. The NFLPA may not like it if he's offered less, but what will they do?

 

And as for favoring "potential guys" you make the point for me that the NFL favors this approach---to their frequent detriment. Russell a reach at #1 (the only thing freakish is his weight, likely more than Peters) but that is another moot point----he was picked #1. AND he was the last #1 QB picked so his contract is the stepping off point for the next QB picked #1. You should be clear on that.

[VOR]

Well, Cassel may not be a "franchise QB" but that point is moot---he has been franchised by the Pats. The reason they did so has been well explained by others here. You can disagree that it was a wise move, I guess--but that is a different argument. Knock yourself out.

 

The simple fact is thet the guy surprised everyone in the league (and everyone here, no doubt---hence the hating) with his level of play. I didn't blame Moss--why would I? I thought Cassel had a great year, given his history (zero experience). I simply pointed out that Moss's career clearly shows that he needs to be matched with a top QB or else he's not a top 5 WR. In a great offensive system, he thrives. Same for Welker. Systems guys all.

 

Cassel played poorly against the Steeler's D? Wow, OK. You got me there. But I actually am saying (for the third time) that another team may not have to pay $14 mil per year to get him. The NFLPA may not like it if he's offered less, but what will they do?

 

And as for favoring "potential guys" you make the point for me that the NFL favors this approach---to their frequent detriment. Russell a reach at #1 (the only thing freakish is his weight, likely more than Peters) but that is another moot point----he was picked #1. AND he was the last #1 QB picked so his contract is the stepping off point for the next QB picked #1. You should be clear on that.

I know that Patriots fans like yourself think that the Patriots can do anything they want, hence the belief that the NFLPA can do nothing about it. The fact is (and I've said this about four times now, but you're new here so I'll cut you some slack), that no franchise player has EVER signed a contract averaging LESS than his franchise tender. Obviously to you, that's some gigantic coincidence. To everyone else, it's a trend. But hey, maybe the NFLPA doesn't care if their franchise tag gets applied and the "franchise player" ends-up signing a well-below tender offer. It's only money, which they don't care about. All they care about is Matt Cassel and his getting traded. Right.

 

Whether it was a "good move" will be determined by if they can trade him, and how fast. Cassel's tender eats-up most of their cap room, not even leaving them with enough to sign their rookies, much less sign their RFA's and EFA's, much less an injury fund, much much less adding FA's.

 

And if his season was considered a rousing success, standards have gotten low. He didn't make the Pro Bowl, All-Pro, or even take the Patriots to the playoffs. Put most any QB in that system and they duplicate what he did, minus the almost half-century in sacks taken. That's JP-level pocket presence, despite a great O-line and WR's.

 

Speaking of which, you seriously undersell Moss and Welker, which isn't surprising. Welker caught 67 passes with the woeful Dolphins in 16 games with just 2 starts, before Belichick decided that he needed to trade a 2nd rounder for him, inserting an illegal poison pill to ensure he got him. And Moss had Culpepper throwing to him with the Vikes, so he didn't need a great QB tossing the rock to be productive.

 

Potential versus proven mediocrity. Take your pick. Any team dumb enough to trade for him, and thus pay him the big bucks, will be in no better a position than the Raiders.

[Gordio]

Note to people who say we should franchise Greer. This is why you don't do that. If the player knows he really isn't going to get top five salary on the open market, you sign the tender. This year an added twist might be that salaries tend to be down a bit becasue of economy. Teams may not be willing to spend as much. However tender offers are based on past year, so by accepting again good way to get top $$

 

 

Who said anything about franchising Greer? I do not think even the inner circle jerks are dumb enough to do that. Although I would not put it past them.

[Gordio]

I know that Patriots fans like yourself think that the Patriots can do anything they want, hence the belief that the NFLPA can do nothing about it. The fact is (and I've said this about four times now, but you're new here so I'll cut you some slack), that no franchise player has EVER signed a contract averaging LESS than his franchise tender. Obviously to you, that's some gigantic coincidence. To everyone else, it's a trend. But hey, maybe the NFLPA doesn't care if their franchise tag gets applied and the "franchise player" ends-up signing a well-below tender offer. It's only money, which they don't care about. All they care about is Matt Cassel and his getting traded. Right.

 

Whether it was a "good move" will be determined by if they can trade him, and how fast. Cassel's tender eats-up most of their cap room, not even leaving them with enough to sign their rookies, much less sign their RFA's and EFA's, much less an injury fund, much much less adding FA's.

 

And if his season was considered a rousing success, standards have gotten low. He didn't make the Pro Bowl, All-Pro, or even take the Patriots to the playoffs. Put most any QB in that system and they duplicate what he did, minus the almost half-century in sacks taken. That's JP-level pocket presence, despite a great O-line and WR's.

 

Speaking of which, you seriously undersell Moss and Welker, which isn't surprising. Welker caught 67 passes with the woeful Dolphins in 16 games with just 2 starts, before Belichick decided that he needed to trade a 2nd rounder for him, inserting an illegal poison pill to ensure he got him. And Moss had Culpepper throwing to him with the Vikes, so he didn't need a great QB tossing the rock to be productive.

 

Potential versus proven mediocrity. Take your pick. Any team dumb enough to trade for him, and thus pay him the big bucks, will be in no better a position than the Raiders.

 

 

Where your point & Ramius' points lose validity is I really can not remember a QB ever being franchised. Has it ever happened? If it has I apologize. This is a unique situation & when it is all said & done & if Cassel is traded I imagine you could take the Russell contract last year & add 15% onto to it. It will be a good contract but will not be the $14 mill ave that the franchise tender is, but really at the end of the day what can the union really do about it. I remember when TO signed with Philly, the NFLPA highly advised him against signing the contract, saying it was well below market value. He signed it anyways & they could not do a thing about it.

[Ramius]

Where your point & Ramius' points lose validity is I really can not remember a QB ever being franchised. Has it ever happened? If it has I apologize. This is a unique situation & when it is all said & done & if Cassel is traded I imagine you could take the Russell contract last year & add 15% onto to it. It will be a good contract but will not be the $14 mill ave that the franchise tender is, but really at the end of the day what can the union really do about it. I remember when TO signed with Philly, the NFLPA highly advised him against signing the contract, saying it was well below market value. He signed it anyways & they could not do a thing about it.

 

How does "no franchised player has ever signed a deal for less than the franchise tag" value lose validity just because its a QB? Its still a true statement. This is however, unprecedented, because its the first time a player who is worth significantly less (on the open market) than the franchise tag has been tagged. I dont think any QB has ever been franchised before, because if you have a QB worth franchise tagging, you're going to pay the man to keep him. And maybe thats the pats* are going to do, keep Cassel around as a 14 mil backup. Which is fine. I've got no problem with that.

 

The problem with trading Cassel is that the NFLPA will do whatever they can to keep driving the case of the franchise tag up. The mere act of tagging Cassel increases the value of next year's franchise tag. Now, you think the NFLPA will just sit idly by if Cassel gets traded and signs a contract thats 1/2 the value of the cap, thereby devaluing the tag and driving its value down? hell no. They may not be able to legally prevent that from happening, but what happens when they tell Cassel's agent, "He better sign for the tag value or else we'll recommend to every single player in the union that your services are questionable and aren't needed." They can effectively get a player boycott on Cassel's agent if they wanted to.

 

Here's an interesting note as well. Cassel's agent is David Dunn. Dunn has been suspended by the NFLPA previously. He lost a 45 million dollar lawsuit to Leigh Steinberg. He's filed for personal bankruptcy. If he pisses off the union, whats left of his tattered and checkered career could quickly be over.

[Gordio]

How does "no franchised player has ever signed a deal for less than the franchise tag" value lose validity just because its a QB? Its still a true statement. This is however, unprecedented, because its the first time a player who is worth significantly less (on the open market) than the franchise tag has been tagged. I dont think any QB has ever been franchised before, because if you have a QB worth franchise tagging, you're going to pay the man to keep him. And maybe thats the pats* are going to do, keep Cassel around as a 14 mil backup. Which is fine. I've got no problem with that.

 

The problem with trading Cassel is that the NFLPA will do whatever they can to keep driving the case of the franchise tag up. The mere act of tagging Cassel increases the value of next year's franchise tag. Now, you think the NFLPA will just sit idly by if Cassel gets traded and signs a contract thats 1/2 the value of the cap, thereby devaluing the tag and driving its value down? hell no. They may not be able to legally prevent that from happening, but what happens when they tell Cassel's agent, "He better sign for the tag value or else we'll recommend to every single player in the union that your services are questionable and aren't needed." They can effectively get a player boycott on Cassel's agent if they wanted to.

 

Here's an interesting note as well. Cassel's agent is David Dunn. Dunn has been suspended by the NFLPA previously. He lost a 45 million dollar lawsuit to Leigh Steinberg. He's filed for personal bankruptcy. If he pisses off the union, whats left of his tattered and checkered career could quickly be over.

 

 

I just bring up the qb position & it never being franchised because the number is so much higher then any other position.

 

But if the market dictates that a team is only going to pay Cassel 8-10 million per year, what can the NFLPA really do about it? I suppose they could blackball his agent or tell them play the one year out in NE if they do not get close to the 1yr franchise tender. If I was cassel I would tell the NFLPA to go f*ck themselves. I got to be honest, if I am a GM there is a real short list of qbs that I would be willing to throw 14 mill per year. That list starts & ends with P Manning/a healthy Tom Brady, & that list sure as hell does not have matt Cassel on it even though I think he is a little better then some people on this board are giving him credit for.

[Magox]

I just bring up the qb position & it never being franchised because the number is so much higher then any other position.

 

But if the market dictates that a team is only going to pay Cassel 8-10 million per year, what can the NFLPA really do about it? I suppose they could blackball his agent or tell them play the one year out in NE if they do not get close to the 1yr franchise tender. If I was cassel I would tell the NFLPA to go f*ck themselves. I got to be honest, if I am a GM there is a real short list of qbs that I would be willing to throw 14 mill per year. That list starts & ends with P Manning/a healthy Tom Brady, & that list sure as hell does not have matt Cassel on it even though I think he is a little better then some people on this board are giving him credit for.

 

your probably right, if you calculate his value in comparison to other qb's and what they are getting payed, it doens't justify a $14 Million dollar a year contract in my view. But every team has a distinct situation, and if you calculate his value to the Patriots on an Insurance Basis for Brady then the 14 Mill per year could be more justifiable. Think about it for a second, You know that in his first year as a qb that he led them to a 11-5 record with some pretty impressive stats. So it is not ridiculous to think that in his second year that he could have even better numbers right? So if Brady were to go down or not be ready, then what are the odds that the Patriots could find someone better then Cassell to replace him? Not good I would imagine, and maybe not even good enough to get to the playoffs.

 

You have to believe that Even with Cassell in there next year as the qb if it played out that way, that they have a really good chance at being a playoff team, and possibly a super bowl contender. I mean look what they did to the Cards at the end of the season, and look at the way the Patriots were playing at the end of the season.

 

So on a cost to value insurance basis, the cost of helping to insure that you have a superbowl contending team for $14 Million is definitely worth it.

 

So comparatively speaking against other qb's he's not worth the money, but for $14 Million for the Patriots it is more justified. Not to mention the ridiculous trade offers that could be thrown there way for teams in desperate need of their next "franchise" quarterback.

[Alphadawg7]

Seriously, you guys are arguing about the potential of a guy who has one season under his belt. And a QB on top of that.

 

Anyone here who can make the claim that Cassel will be this or that is just blowing smoke because there is NO WHERE near enough to make any of those claims to greatness or mediocrity. The claims of mediocrity are even more absurd though given how well he played this year in his first game time experience since High School...

 

Seriously, think about that for a moment...since HIGH SCHOOL...Do you think the competition is a little stiffer in the NFL than high school? Say what you want about the team he is on, but NE had injuries to its O Line, RB, and TE and the kid still stepped into the most high profile QB spot in the NFL on a previously undefeated team with the whole world watching and still produced an 11 win season and some pretty good stats. I would kill for a QB with his stats in Buffalo this year...

 

The guy talking about how Brady behind the same line had so many fewer sacks than Cassel doesnt know much about Brady. Brady is considered one of the most mobile QB's in football...not in terms of scrambling, but in terms of moving around the pocket to avoid pressure. BRADY makes that O Line look good, in fact, Jaws said in an NFL piece 2 years ago that Brady was the most mobile QB in the NFL and showed a whole video segment to show his point. So, its not really fair to point out sack totals on a first year QB compared to one of the best, if not the best, QB in the pocket in the whole NFL.

 

Cassel has some real potential...how far he will go is yet to be seen, but there is no denying there is considerable potential there, especially with the Poise he showed this year under the microscope. Didnt hurt that he got to learn from one of the best QB's to play the game ever...

[Mr. WEO]

I just bring up the qb position & it never being franchised because the number is so much higher then any other position.

 

But if the market dictates that a team is only going to pay Cassel 8-10 million per year, what can the NFLPA really do about it? I suppose they could blackball his agent or tell them play the one year out in NE if they do not get close to the 1yr franchise tender. If I was cassel I would tell the NFLPA to go f*ck themselves. I got to be honest, if I am a GM there is a real short list of qbs that I would be willing to throw 14 mill per year. That list starts & ends with P Manning/a healthy Tom Brady, & that list sure as hell does not have matt Cassel on it even though I think he is a little better then some people on this board are giving him credit for.

 

I've tried several times to bring up this point to this guy--the uniqueness of the situation. He keeps saying something about the NFLPA will do this or that. Nonsense.

 

Gee, looks like there are a lot of "Patriots fans" here, eh VOR?

[SKOOBY]

I've tried several times to bring up this point to this guy--the uniqueness of the situation. He keeps saying something about the NFLPA will do this or that. Nonsense.

 

Gee, looks like there are a lot of "Patriots fans" here, eh VOR?

 

They need a disease just for Pats fans, oh that's right they have one - homosexuality.

[VOR]

I've tried several times to bring up this point to this guy--the uniqueness of the situation. He keeps saying something about the NFLPA will do this or that. Nonsense.

Ah, I see. It's the "uniqueness of the situation." Can't argue with that brilliance.

 

Gee, looks like there are a lot of "Patriots fans" here, eh VOR?

I know the other posters. They've been here a long time. You OTOH "Mr. WEO" just came here, and a quick review of your posts reveal you bashing Ralph, Hardy, and blowing Cassel. If it walks like a duck...

[Mr. WEO]

Ah, I see. It's the "uniqueness of the situation." Can't argue with that brilliance.

 

 

 

I know the other posters. They've been here a long time. You OTOH "Mr. WEO" just came here, and a quick review of your posts reveal you bashing Ralph, Hardy, and blowing Cassel. If it walks like a duck...

 

You have at least three people telling you the same thing. You're free to argue with it--but in order to do so, you need to acknowledge the opposing point of view. Your argument begins and ends with "well, the NFLPA just won't stand for it". Less than brilliant.

 

As with Cassel and Hardy, just pointing out the obvious (to recap--Cassel played far better than anyone expected, Hardy is a documented sociopath and looked lost on the field). Nothing more. Why would that upset you?

 

As for Ralph "bashing", I see a lot of that here too. How long do you usually have to be here before you get to comment on uncomfortable truths about our beloved Bills?

 

And spare me the "you're the new guy here--I don't know you" gayness. This isn't a prison movie.

[VOR]

You have at least three people telling you the same thing. You're free to argue with it--but in order to do so, you need to acknowledge the opposing point of view. Your argument begins and ends with "well, the NFLPA just won't stand for it". Less than brilliant.

 

As with Cassel and Hardy, just pointing out the obvious (to recap--Cassel played far better than anyone expected, Hardy is a documented sociopath and looked lost on the field). Nothing more. Why would that upset you?

 

As for Ralph "bashing", I see a lot of that here too. How long do you usually have to be here before you get to comment on uncomfortable truths about our beloved Bills?

 

And spare me the "you're the new guy here--I don't know you" gayness. This isn't a prison movie.

You have at least 3 people telling YOU that the NFLPA won't stand for it. Do you think the NFLPA will say "der, it's a unique situation, let him sign for $4M a year below the franchise tag because hey, who cares about the value of the tag anyway?" That is, unless you think that he's worth close to $14.65M a year.

 

Cassel played better than anyone expected? He played about as well as a 4th year player in a great offensive system should have played. And his performance against the Steelers in his 12th start met expectations, as did his JP-like 47 sacks taken. Again, how many more starts and how much more talented of an offense does he need? Hell, maybe the Cardinals will trade for him!

 

Hardy is a sociopath? Really? Just like Lynch, right? What about Peters? Simpson (Ko, not OJ)?

 

I'm just "pointing out the obvious" when I say I don't know you from Adam. You're a newbie and we get our share of trolls here. What we don't get is "Bills fans" who come here trashing everything about the team.

[Mr. WEO]

You have at least 3 people telling YOU that the NFLPA won't stand for it. Do you think the NFLPA will say "der, it's a unique situation, let him sign for $4M a year below the franchise tag because hey, who cares about the value of the tag anyway?" That is, unless you think that he's worth close to $14.65M a year.

 

Cassel played better than anyone expected? He played about as well as a 4th year player in a great offensive system should have played. And his performance against the Steelers in his 12th start met expectations, as did his JP-like 47 sacks taken. Again, how many more starts and how much more talented of an offense does he need? Hell, maybe the Cardinals will trade for him!

 

Hardy is a sociopath? Really? Just like Lynch, right? What about Peters? Simpson (Ko, not OJ)?

 

I'm just "pointing out the obvious" when I say I don't know you from Adam. You're a newbie and we get our share of trolls here. What we don't get is "Bills fans" who come here trashing everything about the team.

 

There is nothing the union can do. If you accept that truth, your point evaporates.

 

So you predicted that Cassel would win 11 games the day Brady went down? You knew he would outperform "2008 Pro Bowler" Brett Favre in nearly all categories? You expected all this from a guy who never took a snap as a starter since high school?? Am I supposed to believe this because I just got here? Can you direct me to those posts where you called all of this?

 

Don't know what it's like around your place, but in my home, we consider Hardy's behavior towards his family members sociopathic.

 

Lynch is not a sociopath. He is well known as a guy who clandestinely drinks smuggled booze in bars around buffalo .He no doubt knew he ran into that big canncuk with his SUV, hence his behavior afterward. But he plays hard--he's by far the best player the Bills have. I like him.

 

Peters is a decent lineman who is either incredibly stupid or just poorly advised. His holdout was the most mystifying act of self abuse that did not involve illicit substances or criminal activity that a guy looking to renegotiate a contract could commit. Fat, slow and indifferent does not create a path to successful contract negotiations. He was a liability this year.

 

Ko Simpson is not a sociopath, but he is a backup DB who, I was somewhat disappointed to learn, is "payed millions" by the Bills.