San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 What the heck's wrong with Derek Fine? Why couldn't he be our Dallas Clark? They have almost the exact same build. Fine looked very good when he was called upon. Both players had just 1 touchdown scored in their rookie season. Why couldn't Fine be the answer at tight end? I see no reason why he couldn't be a very good tight end of us. This team should give Fine the starting job and use the top draft selections for what is truly needed...a center, a defensive end, an outside linebacker and a defensive tackle. Give Fine the starting TE job and give Steve Johnson the starting #2 receiver job. I'm tired of the obsession over the tight end position on this board. http://www.nfl.com/players/derekfine/caree...ts?id=FIN197209 http://www.nfl.com/players/dallasclark/car...ts?id=CLA236596 Just to play devil's advocate a bit. You can view this a few different ways. One is to assume or project that the young players at certain positions have a high enough upside that they will actually become good quality starters. The other way is to say, "we really don't know so let's upgrade as many positions as possible with proven players or high draft picks". So (and these are rhetorical questions, please don't reply) the questions become: Is Trent Edwards the answer at quarterback or do we get a veteran to compete/replace him? Is Steve Johnson the answer at wideout or do need to get a veteran as our #2 wideout? Is Derek Fine the answer at tight end or do we get a proven free agent or high pick to start immediately? Etc. Etc. Etc. The wisdom is in knowing which way to go in each individual case. But when waiting on young players, remember that some who flash promise are not ultimately the answer due to performance or injury or what have you. Donte Whitner (8th overall), John McCargo (26th overall), Ashton Yobouty (3rd round, 70th overall), Roscoe Parrish (2nd round, 55th overall), Kevin Everett (3rd round, 86th overall) are all names of young promising players who due to various reasons have not become the players that we expected them to be. So you can make roster decisions based on known commodities (proven veterans) or unknown commodities (young players). I like Johnson and Fine. It's just that you're hoping that we upgrade two positions next year through development of players already here. I would want the Bills to plug-in at least one veteran between those two positions. Make it more of a sure thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Just to play devil's advocate a bit. You can view this a few different ways. One is to assume or project that the young players at certain positions have a high enough upside that they will actually become good quality starters. The other way is to say, "we really don't know so let's upgrade as many positions as possible with proven players or high draft picks". So (and these are rhetorical questions, please don't reply) the questions become: Is Trent Edwards the answer at quarterback or do we get a veteran to compete/replace him? Is Steve Johnson the answer at wideout or do need to get a veteran as our #2 wideout? Is Derek Fine the answer at tight end or do we get a proven free agent or high pick to start immediately? Etc. Etc. Etc. The wisdom is in knowing which way to go in each individual case. But when waiting on young players, remember that some who flash promise are not ultimately the answer due to performance or injury or what have you. Donte Whitner (8th overall), John McCargo (26th overall), Ashton Yobouty (3rd round, 70th overall), Roscoe Parrish (2nd round, 55th overall), Kevin Everett (3rd round, 86th overall) are all names of young promising players who due to various reasons have not become the players that we expected them to be. So you can make roster decisions based on known commodities (proven veterans) or unknown commodities (young players). I like Johnson and Fine. It's just that you're hoping that we upgrade two positions next year through development of players already here. I would want the Bills to plug-in at least one veteran between those two positions. Make it more of a sure thing. Exactly who's the "at least one" sure thing TE or WR veteran that you're talking about the Bills signing? Bo Scaife has never had more than 2 touchdowns in a season. Who's the receiver? Holt? Toomer? I'd rather have Fine and Johnson starting over any of these veteran guys because I'm convinced both would play at least as good if not better than any of those veteran players. Wouldn't it better serve the Bills to use that money to get a viable option at QB to backup our fragile starter? BTW, for every McCargo and Youboty mistake there's been a Greer, Jackson and Crowell who've developed into high quality players. The only difference is that it took injuries to force the hands of the jackass coaches to let those three players who actually had the talent play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Exactly who's the "at least one" sure thing TE or WR veteran that you're talking about the Bills signing? Bo Scaife has never had more than 2 touchdowns in a season. Who's the receiver? Holt? Toomer? I'd rather have Fine and Johnson starting over any of these veteran guys because I'm convinced both would play at least as good if not better than any of those veteran players. Wouldn't it better serve the Bills to use that money to get a viable option at QB to backup our fragile starter? BTW, for every McCargo and Youboty mistake there's been a Greer, Jackson and Crowell who've developed into high quality players. The only difference is that it took injuries to force the hands of the jackass coaches to let those three players who actually had the talent play. Oh I think it's safe to say that Scaife would for sure be a "sure" upgrade from what we have had. And, I wouldnt be calling Youbouty a mistake just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Oh I think it's safe to say that Scaife would for sure be a "sure" upgrade from what we have had. And, I wouldnt be calling Youbouty a mistake just yet. Safe to say? Bo had one more touchdown than Fine who was a rookie. It's probably safe to say that Bo had a much better QB throwing to him and a lot more snaps than Derek did. Say no to Bo and yes to Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Safe to say? Bo had one more touchdown than Fine who was a rookie. It's probably safe to say that Bo had a much better QB throwing to him and a lot more snaps than Derek did. Say no to Bo and yes to Derek. Collins better than Edwards. Ummmm No And if you don't realize that Bo is a sure upgrade from what we have. Then it's useless to argue this with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair GM Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Ralphie boy had to put the blame somewhere and considering he ignorantly extended the contract of one of the worst head coaches in NFL history he chose to point the finger at the players. So your argument is based on a falsehood. Dick Jauron, his coordinators and their schemes are all laughable. Fine and Johnson would have just as much success that Greer and Jackson had if they were just given the chance to succeed. I can see their talent, why can't these knuckleheads? Someone needs to tell the deranged and delusional owner of the Buffalo Bills that it's the coaching stupid. Agreed, but I can't see him just keep digging deeper into a whole mess of shtuff, because of the PR nightmare on thier hands from retaining Jerkon, and not follow through on comments like that. Don't be surprised if they go on a spending spree for elite talent at the high profile positions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Collins better than Edwards. Ummmm No Well, while they were close, statistically in 2008, I'd say that Kerry Collins played much better than Trent, over the course of the season. Of course, you have to keep in mind the quality of their teams as a whole, and the offensive playcalling. Still, I give the nod to Collins who was better at protecting the ball, throwing only 7 INTs in 16 games. Trent tossed 10 picks in 14 games, but had three multiple INT games in a row (one with 3 picks) and four overall...that really hurt his season, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Just for the record, I didn't call Yobouty a mistake. I said he was one of the "young promising players who due to various reasons have not become the players that we expected them to be." In other words, we can't just assume a young player is going to take the next step. I agree with you Magox. Bo Scaife is an upgrade over who we have and he's a known quantity. I like Fine and Schouman too for that matter but I want to see us bring in Scaife. The Bills play a considerable amount of double tight end so there's that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Exactly who's the "at least one" sure thing TE or WR veteran that you're talking about the Bills signing? Bo Scaife has never had more than 2 touchdowns in a season. Who's the receiver? Holt? Toomer? I'd rather have Fine and Johnson starting over any of these veteran guys because I'm convinced both would play at least as good if not better than any of those veteran players. Wouldn't it better serve the Bills to use that money to get a viable option at QB to backup our fragile starter? BTW, for every McCargo and Youboty mistake there's been a Greer, Jackson and Crowell who've developed into high quality players. The only difference is that it took injuries to force the hands of the jackass coaches to let those three players who actually had the talent play. So, if I'm reading this correctly, Steve Johnson showed you enough (with his 11 receptions) to make you believe he'll play as well or better than Torry Holt? A guy that's been, to say the least, uncommonly productive over 10 NFL seasons? You, my friend, were watching a different team than I was for 16 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Collins better than Edwards. Ummmm No And if you don't realize that Bo is a sure upgrade from what we have. Then it's useless to argue this with you Not to be argumentative, but I believe Collins was clearly better. Far fewer costly mistakes and significantly better play down the stretch. You can attribute that to Edwards' youth if you like (which I don't really buy, but hey, it's a valid argument), but Collins was the better player over the course of the year. Regarding Scaife, a hobo with a sinus infection would be an upgrade over what we have at TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I love Bo Scaife, but with the Titans having $5 million MORE in cap room than the Bills do and a filthy rich owner I don't see how they let a guy like that walk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I'd get one of the top TE's in the draft, or Scaife over TG just because the Bills would be back to square one in a couple years when TG retires, and they wouldn't be getting TG in his prime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 So, if I'm reading this correctly, Steve Johnson showed you enough (with his 11 receptions) to make you believe he'll play as well or better than Torry Holt? A guy that's been, to say the least, uncommonly productive over 10 NFL seasons? You, my friend, were watching a different team than I was for 16 games. Yes he did, plus he's not a member of the AARP. Once you prove you can get the job done (even in a few game sample) at the receiver position then it usually doesn't all of a sudden go away. The problem is that even if the Bills drafted Eddie Royal or Brandon Marshall they'd still be on the freaking bench because their coach is an idiot who is so conservative and tightly wound that he wouldn't know a non-first or second round picked baller if he was hit over the head with one. The fact that Fred Jackson was playing behind Anthony Thomas and Jabarri Greer was playing behind Jason Webster is all you need to know about Dick's decision-making instincts as a head coach. A guy like Wes Welker would have NEVER got a shot as a Bills receiver. The head coach is too much of a simpleton to know who is good and who should be playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Oh I think it's safe to say that Scaife would for sure be a "sure" upgrade from what we have had. And, I wouldnt be calling Youbouty a mistake just yet. Youbouty was playing at a pro bowl level before he got hurt this year---if he comes back in training camp and plays like that again, McKelvin will be relegated to KO and nickel duty again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well, while they were close, statistically in 2008, I'd say that Kerry Collins played much better than Trent, over the course of the season. Of course, you have to keep in mind the quality of their teams as a whole, and the offensive playcalling. Still, I give the nod to Collins who was better at protecting the ball, throwing only 7 INTs in 16 games. Trent tossed 10 picks in 14 games, but had three multiple INT games in a row (one with 3 picks) and four overall...that really hurt his season, IMO. And I'm not disagreeing with The Dean here, I'm just too drunk and lazy to rewind to the appropriate spot in the thread. BUT, just so everyone knows, people are comparing Trent Edwards (2 years under his belt) to Kerry Collins (13 years under his belt). Is this even a fair comparison?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Of course, SJ. And while you weren't necessarily replying to my post, it should be noted that I was simply talking about their performances last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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