StupidNation Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 What does this have to do with anything? Whitner is a STRONG safety. He isn't likely to rack up huge INT numbers. Even Bob Sanders gets one-to-two INTs a year, with the exception of one year, when he got SIX. Still, his value isn't in his ability to get picks. I have no issue with Donte not getting picks (just as Winfield's lack of picks didn't bother me), but expect that if he were given the opportunity to play a true SS position, on an attacking D, with a pass rush, he would get his share (SS share) of pick opportunities. Bob Sanders vs Donte Whitner? Sanders does SOMETHING in the backfield and averages 2 INTs in a full season. Sanders tries to make plays on the ball. If you want to compare Sanders with Whitner show me how he changes the game, show me how he changes how offenses play him. Teams are throwing AT Whitner, teams are running AT Whitner. Sanders does something that few SS do, namely, make game changing plays. 2nd if you want to compare Whitner with Winfield, just remember that Winfield is a better tackler, blankets his defenders better, and defends passes. Seriously, if Whitner went down injured, as he did this year, how was the defense down-graded? Schobel it's noticeable, and if you took out Shroud it was somewhat noticeable. Whitner is a non-factor in a game, that's a fact. If Whitner is so good, as you love to stroke him, tell me what he does that is above what a median SS does in the NFL? I'd love to hear it. The other guy stroking your comment pointed out Polamalu, which is even funnier considering that guy is accounted for by the offense every play. When has anyone said that about Whitner?
The Dean Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Would you agree that there is no excuse for exercising poor technique in that situation? No, I would say that an injured player often doesn't execute the way he would in normal situations, and all players, injured or not, make the occasional mistake. I'd judge a player on a larger body of work, and keep context and circumstance in mind. I see defensive players, especially safeties, use poor form all the time. When I see a safety fly through the air, and hit a ballcarrier, and not use his arms to wrap the guy I, I call that poor form. Yet the best in the game do it on a regular basis. Another example, Troy P BADLY misplayed a run, in the Super Bowl. Does that make him a sub-par player? Would you judge him based on that play. In general, Whitner actually has excellent tackling form.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Bob Sanders vs Donte Whitner? Sanders does SOMETHING in the backfield and averages 2 INTs in a full season. Sanders tries to make plays on the ball. If you want to compare Sanders with Whitner show me how he changes the game, show me how he changes how offenses play him. Teams are throwing AT Whitner, teams are running AT Whitner. Sanders does something that few SS do, namely, make game changing plays. 2nd if you want to compare Whitner with Winfield, just remember that Winfield is a better tackler, blankets his defenders better, and defends passes. Seriously, if Whitner went down injured, as he did this year, how was the defense down-graded? Schobel it's noticeable, and if you took out Shroud it was somewhat noticeable. Whitner is a non-factor in a game, that's a fact. If Whitner is so good, as you love to stroke him, tell me what he does that is above what a median SS does in the NFL? I'd love to hear it. The other guy stroking your comment pointed out Polamalu, which is even funnier considering that guy is accounted for by the offense every play. When has anyone said that about Whitner? September 17, 2005. San Diego St. held him to two tackles but, alas, the Buckeyes still prevailed 27-6
Alphadawg7 Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 I can't help but think that Whitners biggest knock is that we took him over Ngata. If Ngata is gone or if we had traded down 10 slots and grabbed Whitner, I seriously doubt there is this much criticism and talk about him. He is a young up and coming safety, who is a vocal leader and about the only guy on D trying to give us some swagger. He is considered to be a tough nosed SS and one of the better young safeties in the game. Does he have to improve some parts of his game, sure...but he is a pretty good safety as is. Honestly, he will become more effective once we shore up the front 7 with a health LB core and an actual pass rush (something that makes players like Troy and Reed so dangerous) and we solidify the FS spot. If we offered him in trade, we would be getting a lot of calls.
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 I can't help but think that Whitners biggest knock is that we took him over Ngata. If Ngata is gone or if we had traded down 10 slots and grabbed Whitner, I seriously doubt there is this much criticism and talk about him. He is a young up and coming safety, who is a vocal leader and about the only guy on D trying to give us some swagger. He is considered to be a tough nosed SS and one of the better young safeties in the game. Does he have to improve some parts of his game, sure...but he is a pretty good safety as is. Honestly, he will become more effective once we shore up the front 7 with a health LB core and an actual pass rush (something that makes players like Troy and Reed so dangerous) and we solidify the FS spot. If we offered him in trade, we would be getting a lot of calls. Hold out for Jim Leonhard !! JK sorta
StupidNation Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 I can't help but think that Whitners biggest knock is that we took him over Ngata. If Ngata is gone or if we had traded down 10 slots and grabbed Whitner, I seriously doubt there is this much criticism and talk about him. He is a young up and coming safety, who is a vocal leader and about the only guy on D trying to give us some swagger. He is considered to be a tough nosed SS and one of the better young safeties in the game. Does he have to improve some parts of his game, sure...but he is a pretty good safety as is. Honestly, he will become more effective once we shore up the front 7 with a health LB core and an actual pass rush (something that makes players like Troy and Reed so dangerous) and we solidify the FS spot. If we offered him in trade, we would be getting a lot of calls. From who? What does he do on this team that really stands out? Will someone tell me because all this Whitner-worship is laughable.
BillsVet Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 All of the arguments against Whitner are based on subjectives. Poor ball skills, bad angles, his use in the Bills defense. None of it can be substantiated with numbers. And so it becomes a statistics issue, which can be pushed either for or against. The vehement nature of this thread indicates some fans think Whitner's still going to be good. For me, I want a top 10 pick to be the foundation of whichever side of the ball they play. Someone to build around, but that is not true of Whitner. He is a cog in the wheel, but I'm not sure if he's as big as some would have him. Was the team better without him for that stretch of games? I'm not sure, but I can darn guarantee that without Bob Sanders the Indianapolis defense is much worse. Whitner's impact cannot be defended solely by how he's used, nor can it be shot down on stats alone. If he needs help to be successful, he's not the guy worthy of a top 10 pick. And I don't care what Michael Huff does or doesn't do. That has no bearing on this topic.
MRW Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 All of the arguments against Whitner are based on subjectives. Poor ball skills, bad angles, his use in the Bills defense. None of it can be substantiated with numbers. And so it becomes a statistics issue, which can be pushed either for or against. The vehement nature of this thread indicates some fans think Whitner's still going to be good. For me, I want a top 10 pick to be the foundation of whichever side of the ball they play. Someone to build around, but that is not true of Whitner. He is a cog in the wheel, but I'm not sure if he's as big as some would have him. Was the team better without him for that stretch of games? I'm not sure, but I can darn guarantee that without Bob Sanders the Indianapolis defense is much worse. Whitner's impact cannot be defended solely by how he's used, nor can it be shot down on stats alone. If he needs help to be successful, he's not the guy worthy of a top 10 pick. And I don't care what Michael Huff does or doesn't do. That has no bearing on this topic. Whether Whitner was worthy of a top 10 pick has no bearing on this topic either. We're never getting that pick back and the fact that it doesn't seem possible to discuss Whitner without it coming up is very frustrating. The more interesting question to me is how does Whitner stack up against other starting safeties in the league? Is he going to be worth the cost to extend his contract in a year or so? What would it take to replace him if the Bills decide to go that route? None of those questions have anything at all to do with his draft position or who the Bills could've taken instead.
Ramius Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Whether Whitner was worthy of a top 10 pick has no bearing on this topic either. We're never getting that pick back and the fact that it doesn't seem possible to discuss Whitner without it coming up is very frustrating. The more interesting question to me is how does Whitner stack up against other starting safeties in the league? Is he going to be worth the cost to extend his contract in a year or so? What would it take to replace him if the Bills decide to go that route? None of those questions have anything at all to do with his draft position or who the Bills could've taken instead. Good post. There are many posters who would gladly get rid of players for not living up to their draft slot, instead of basing their decision on the actual product on the field and likelihood of improvement. Notice how its the same guy(s) who complain that the Bills are "running on a treadmill" and "creating holes to fill" are the ones that are the first to run good players out of town.
StupidNation Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 All of the arguments against Whitner are based on subjectives. Poor ball skills, bad angles, his use in the Bills defense. None of it can be substantiated with numbers. And so it becomes a statistics issue, which can be pushed either for or against. Actually it can be substantiated with #s and has been. 0 INTs and 1 PD for the past 2 years are numbers that are irrefutable. If you believe those are OK numbers and don't bear mention to the objective fact he sucks in coverage keep convincing yourself, but against a fact there is no argument. The vehement nature of this thread indicates some fans think Whitner's still going to be good. For me, I want a top 10 pick to be the foundation of whichever side of the ball they play. Someone to build around, but that is not true of Whitner. He is a cog in the wheel, but I'm not sure if he's as big as some would have him. Agreed Was the team better without him for that stretch of games? I'm not sure, but I can darn guarantee that without Bob Sanders the Indianapolis defense is much worse. Agreed Whitner's impact cannot be defended solely by how he's used, nor can it be shot down on stats alone. If he needs help to be successful, he's not the guy worthy of a top 10 pick. And I don't care what Michael Huff does or doesn't do. That has no bearing on this topic. The question is, as you and I have stated, is the team that much better with or without him? So far I see little to no difference with Wilson and Scott than Scott and Whitner. It stands to reason why the team had Scott defend the TE from San Diego over Whitner with no starting experience before that game except to fill-in for injuries. Whitner does nothing special, nothing outstanding, and if he's worth saving money cutting he's worth cutting and saving the dough. Let other teams "snatch him up." I would dare say Leonard gives us the same production at a fraction of the cost.
RShirley Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Actually it can be substantiated with #s and has been. 0 INTs and 1 PD for the past 2 years are numbers that are irrefutable. If you believe those are OK numbers and don't bear mention to the objective fact he sucks in coverage keep convincing yourself, but against a fact there is no argument. Agreed Agreed The question is, as you and I have stated, is the team that much better with or without him? So far I see little to no difference with Wilson and Scott than Scott and Whitner. It stands to reason why the team had Scott defend the TE from San Diego over Whitner with no starting experience before that game except to fill-in for injuries. Whitner does nothing special, nothing outstanding, and if he's worth saving money cutting he's worth cutting and saving the dough. Let other teams "snatch him up." I would dare say Leonard gives us the same production at a fraction of the cost. The real question to ask is not whether his play is worthy of the #8, but looking into the future is he worth the money that he is going to command in the open market. Could this money be spent more wisely bringing in a pass rusher that will make an average safety (Whitner's replacement) look like a playmaker. The Whitner apologists say that this is the problem why he looks so average........I would rather put the money towards a pass rusher and back fill at safety, then to pay an average unproven Whitner a boatload of cash with hopes he will become the player we think he could be.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Whether Whitner was worthy of a top 10 pick has no bearing on this topic either. We're never getting that pick back and the fact that it doesn't seem possible to discuss Whitner without it coming up is very frustrating. The more interesting question to me is how does Whitner stack up against other starting safeties in the league? Is he going to be worth the cost to extend his contract in a year or so? What would it take to replace him if the Bills decide to go that route? None of those questions have anything at all to do with his draft position or who the Bills could've taken instead. Great Post and why I posted a few back that said his biggest knock was his draft slot. If he was drafted 15 slots later, 90% of these conversations wouldnt happen, at least not to this degree. His stats get knocked A LOT, but the way he is used he isnt going to be putting up INT's. His play is also greatly affected by our play up front and lack of pressure. Safeties benefit greatly from QB pressure and the ability to take away the underneath route. Whitner is not being used as a ball hawk in our system because of the weaknesses we have up front.
BillsVet Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Good post. There are many posters who would gladly get rid of players for not living up to their draft slot, instead of basing their decision on the actual product on the field and likelihood of improvement. Notice how its the same guy(s) who complain that the Bills are "running on a treadmill" and "creating holes to fill" are the ones that are the first to run good players out of town. Getting rid of Whitner because he's not dominant is no solution either. He's signed through 2011 IIRC, so there's plenty of time to make a decision on him for the future. The point has been made several times around here about being on a treadmill. The draft is replacing the players who left the team. Milloy/Whitner, Clements/McKelvin, Fletcher/Posluszny, McGahee/Lynch. No team can lose talent at that pace and feature good squads. Essentially the 06, 07, and 08 drafts were spent replacing productive players. .
Ramius Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Getting rid of Whitner because he's not dominant is no solution either. He's signed through 2011 IIRC, so there's plenty of time to make a decision on him for the future. The point has been made several times around here about being on a treadmill. The draft is replacing the players who left the team. Milloy/Whitner, Clements/McKelvin, Fletcher/Posluszny, McGahee/Lynch. No team can lose talent at that pace and feature good squads. Essentially the 06, 07, and 08 drafts were spent replacing productive players. . Agreed. We have plenty of time on to make a decision on whitner. However, his draft slot should have nothing to do with any negotiations on an extension or new deal. Those decisions should be made based on his play on the field, NOT based on his draft slot or who we should have taken instead.
***PetrinoInAlbany*** Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Hey, Ramius ... I love the "some white FB" you've got at Round 4. Classic!
MRW Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Getting rid of Whitner because he's not dominant is no solution either. He's signed through 2011 IIRC, so there's plenty of time to make a decision on him for the future. The point has been made several times around here about being on a treadmill. The draft is replacing the players who left the team. Milloy/Whitner, Clements/McKelvin, Fletcher/Posluszny, McGahee/Lynch. No team can lose talent at that pace and feature good squads. Essentially the 06, 07, and 08 drafts were spent replacing productive players. . Now this I agree with 100%. I certainly hope they're not rushing into any kind of extension, and they have another year or two to see how he develops. If the Bills actually improve their front 7 it should be easier to get a clearer picture of how Whitner is capable of playing.
Orton's Arm Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Whether Whitner was worthy of a top 10 pick has no bearing on this topic either. We're never getting that pick back and the fact that it doesn't seem possible to discuss Whitner without it coming up is very frustrating. I completely agree that whether Whitner has or has not lived up to his status as a #8 overall draft pick has no bearing on whether we should extend him. To be honest, one of the last things I want the Bills to do is to get rid of this guy, if only because that might well mean using yet another top-10 or top-15 pick on reaching for some safety. Marv Levy once said that once you start listening to the fans, you'll soon be up in the stands with them. By this he meant that a coach (and, presumably, a front office type) had to be smarter than the fan base to retain his job for any length of time. I want you to think back to what the fan base wanted, back before that 8th overall pick had been spent. Some were calling for the Bills to take Ngata. Some (including me) pointed out Losman was not the answer at quarterback, and suggested the Bills use the pick on Cutler. Some (such as Bill from NYC) had suggested the Bills trade down and take Mangold. Any of these options would clearly have worked out much better than taking Whitner. None of these options represents 20/20 hindsight, because they were all suggested--and intensely advocated--before the Whitner pick had been made. One hopes for a front office that's smarter than the fan base. It's frustrating to us as fans when so much of the fan base proves smarter than the front office (at least in this instance). It's this frustration--this sense of wasted opportunity--which makes Whitner's 8th overall draft position come up so often. On the other hand, it's really cool whenever the front office proves smarter than the fan base. Picks like Trent Edwards in the third, Brad Butler in the fifth, and Steve Johnson in the seventh, are guys that represent very good value for their draft position. And I don't remember fans calling for these particular players before the respective drafts in which they were taken. The more often the front office proves smarter than the fan base, the better the Bills are likely to do!
Magox Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 I completely agree that whether Whitner has or has not lived up to his status as a #8 overall draft pick has no bearing on whether we should extend him. To be honest, one of the last things I want the Bills to do is to get rid of this guy, if only because that might well mean using yet another top-10 or top-15 pick on reaching for some safety. Marv Levy once said that once you start listening to the fans, you'll soon be up in the stands with them. By this he meant that a coach (and, presumably, a front office type) had to be smarter than the fan base to retain his job for any length of time. I want you to think back to what the fan base wanted, back before that 8th overall pick had been spent. Some were calling for the Bills to take Ngata. Some (including me) pointed out Losman was not the answer at quarterback, and suggested the Bills use the pick on Cutler. Some (such as Bill from NYC) had suggested the Bills trade down and take Mangold. Any of these options would clearly have worked out much better than taking Whitner. None of these options represents 20/20 hindsight, because they were all suggested--and intensely advocated--before the Whitner pick had been made. One hopes for a front office that's smarter than the fan base. It's frustrating to us as fans when so much of the fan base proves smarter than the front office (at least in this instance). It's this frustration--this sense of wasted opportunity--which makes Whitner's 8th overall draft position come up so often. On the other hand, it's really cool whenever the front office proves smarter than the fan base. Picks like Trent Edwards in the third, Brad Butler in the fifth, and Steve Johnson in the seventh, are guys that represent very good value for their draft position. And I don't remember fans calling for these particular players before the respective drafts in which they were taken. The more often the front office proves smarter than the fan base, the better the Bills are likely to do! good post!! Pretty much are the same people that are wanting to trade Marshawn, Peters and getting rid of Whitner, Trent Edwards and Schobel
Shanahan's Horseshoe Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Great Post and why I posted a few back that said his biggest knock was his draft slot. If he was drafted 15 slots later, 90% of these conversations wouldnt happen, at least not to this degree. His stats get knocked A LOT, but the way he is used he isnt going to be putting up INT's. His play is also greatly affected by our play up front and lack of pressure. Safeties benefit greatly from QB pressure and the ability to take away the underneath route. Whitner is not being used as a ball hawk in our system because of the weaknesses we have up front. A great player makes plays! If he was such a playmaker, WHY IN THE HELL WOULDN"T THE BILLS PUT HIM IN "SPOTS" TO MAKE PLAYS!!?? This argument is absurd! Coaches know he has limitations! By your logic, if Ed Reed was a Buffalo Bill he wouldn't get to the ball because we don't have a pass rush? The bottom line is that since Donte Whitner has been a Bill, teams have thrown the ball 1572 times! Thats the ball going in the air over 1400 TIMES (plus/minus for injuries) when Donte is back in the secondary. He has 2 ints and 7 pass deelctions for a grand total of 9 times that he has touched the ball when it was in the air! I don't care if the Bills D sucks or the playcalling isn't "putting" him in spots, 9 TIMES out of 1400+ passes SUCKS! Quit making excuses for an average player. That being said, I am not in favor of cutting him.
San-O Posted February 6, 2009 Posted February 6, 2009 Getting rid of Whitner because he's not dominant is no solution either. He's signed through 2011 IIRC, so there's plenty of time to make a decision on him for the future. The point has been made several times around here about being on a treadmill. The draft is replacing the players who left the team. Milloy/Whitner, Clements/McKelvin, Fletcher/Posluszny, McGahee/Lynch. No team can lose talent at that pace and feature good squads. Essentially the 06, 07, and 08 drafts were spent replacing productive players. . Buffalo's drafts since '06 have been bad, as seen by the low number of starters on the roster. I count 5 starters from the 06/07/08 draft. Brutal, and the 06' Levy draft may be the worst. All the experst were scratching their heads, with good reason. That was a rookie GM and a bad attempt.
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