Flbillsfan#1 Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Quite honestly though, while we may be better at QB now, than in 2005, how much better are we, really? Holcomb and JP vs. Trent and Hamdan. I'd like to think that we are better, there. But, the proof will be on the field. Frankly, I am worried about Trent, but haven't given up hope, yet. I feel almost the same way about Trent as I did about JP at the start of 2007. My thoughts exactly, & people expecting Trent to develop & improve have MUCH more hope & faith in Trent & Dick & his staff than I do.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Quite honestly though, while we may be better at QB now, than in 2005, how much better are we, really? Holcomb and JP vs. Trent and Hamdan. I'd like to think that we are better, there. But, the proof will be on the field. Frankly, I am worried about Trent, but haven't given up hope, yet. I feel almost the same way about Trent as I did about JP at the start of 2007. Honestly, I think Holcomb would have been sufficient enough to get us to the playoffs this year. So, I would say our current level of QB play is worse...our potential at QB may be higher, but Holcomb was more effective than Trent has been so far...IMO...Trent should be better than Holcomb in the long run though, so more potential, but less actual productivity to this point...
The Dean Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Honestly, I think Holcomb would have been sufficient enough to get us to the playoffs this year. So, I would say our current level of QB play is worse...our potential at QB may be higher, but Holcomb was more effective than Trent has been so far...IMO...Trent should be better than Holcomb in the long run though, so more potential, but less actual productivity to this point... I guess you didn't see Holcomb play after he left the Bills. He was done. His arm was totally kaput.
Magox Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I guess you didn't see Holcomb play after he left the Bills. He was done. His arm was totally kaput. it's no use arguing with him about Trent, no matter what you say at the end of the day him and a few others thinks he sucks. Trent is just gonna have to prove them all wrong. Even though the Holcomb statement is pretty absurd
The Dean Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 it's no use arguing with him about Trent, no matter what you say at the end of the day him and a few others thinks he sucks. Trent is just gonna have to prove them all wrong. Even though the Holcomb statement is pretty absurd I just don't know what to make of Trent. He played one or two terrific games, last year, and a few stinkers. Mostly he was an insignificant factor in games. I think that, mostly, it was due to poor playcalling and philosophy.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I guess you didn't see Holcomb play after he left the Bills. He was done. His arm was totally kaput. Ok, another case of a misundestood post...so let me clear it up. I didnt say bring Holcomb back or that we would be better off with Holcomb still here. The question was whether our QB situation and play was worse in 2005 than it was now. I said, Holcomb was a more capable starter that year than Trent was this year...so in relation to on field play, that version of Holcomb was more productive than Trent was in 2008. I even said we have more potential now at QB, but thats not the point I was addressing. By no means was it a landslide difference, but IMO, Holcomb was slightly more effective that year than Trent was this year. Trent has much much greater potential than Holcomb had back then, so based on potential we are in a better situation, but based on play on the field we were no better off this year with Trent than we were with Holcomb in 2005 and were even slightly worse.
The Dean Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Ok, another case of a misundestood post...so let me clear it up. I didnt say bring Holcomb back or that we would be better off with Holcomb still here. The question was whether our QB situation and play was worse in 2005 than it was now. I said, Holcomb was a more capable starter that year than Trent was this year...so in relation to on field play, that version of Holcomb was more productive than Trent was in 2008. I even said we have more potential now at QB, but thats not the point I was addressing. By no means was it a landslide difference, but IMO, Holcomb was slightly more effective that year than Trent was this year. Trent has much much greater potential than Holcomb had back then, so based on potential we are in a better situation, but based on play on the field we were no better off this year with Trent than we were with Holcomb in 2005 and were even slightly worse. I understand what you are saying now, thanks. I would disagree, slightly, because I think Trent had at least the possibility of throwing downfield, when Holcomb had none (even in 2005). Defenses would have likely noticed that, and taken away the short dumps, that Holcomb was capable of. The QB position cost the Bills one game, that Holcomb probably could have won, But, I'm not certain their record would have been better with the 2005 version of KH. Trent certainly has more potential, and can make plays that KH couldn't even think of attempting.
Alphadawg7 Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 it's no use arguing with him about Trent, no matter what you say at the end of the day him and a few others thinks he sucks. Trent is just gonna have to prove them all wrong. Even though the Holcomb statement is pretty absurd First off, all you Trent supporters are refrencing FUTURE Trent when I am refrencing what has been a sore spot in actual GAME play the last 2 seasons...I am not saying Trent wont become a good QB, but the combination of him and JP have undeniably been a handicap on the success of this team to this point...PERIOD. You guys just dont seem to know the differnece between actual play on the field and potential... 1. Trent passed for 200 yards or more just 7 times this season. He passed for less than 200 yards 6 times...thats not good. 2. Trent had only 1 multi TD game, and it was a meesly 2 TD's agaisnt one of the worst pass D's in the league in KC. 3. Trent had a four game stretch where he threw 3 TD's, 8 INT's and had 5 fumbles. 4. Trents heroic 4-0 start is no where near as good as hyped to be. Against Oak and St Louis, his passer rating never topped 81, he had only 1 TD in each game, and was ineffective until the fourth quarter. In 2 of the 4-0 wins, OTHER players got us those wins with huge plays, yet Trent supporters give all the credit to Trent and ignore his struggles through most the games. Not to mention how bad these teams were and we still struggled to beat them. 5. His only effective games came against the worst D's in the league, and even then, most were marginal at best. 6. He has never thrown for 300 yards in a single game ever in his career. 7. In 24 games, he has thrown more than 1 TD just 3 times...just 3 times...last I checked, TD's score points, and the object of the game is to outscore your opponent. 8. He regressed terribly to become timid in the pocket, which now cast a cloud of doubt over his much hyped potential. 9. He is injury prone, so we are forced to rely on even worse play from JP everytime he gets hurt, and next year who knows who the back up will be, but he better be capable because Trents track record suggests he will miss about 3 games. 10. He progresses through his reads WAY too slow forcing him to miss wide open targets and instead check down to easy underneath throws at times we could have significant gains. I KNOW HE IS A YOUNG QB...I dont need to hear about that anymore. The above is not to knock what he MAY become, but illustrate what he HAS been on the FIELD OF PLAY! Hell, I have his jersey, and I still wear it in support of him. I want him to succeed because he is a Bill and I support the Bills. But the FACT remains, his ON FIELD PLAY TO THIS POINT, has been below average (as is with a lot of young qb's) and it has directly resulted in below .500 seasons. It is just so frustrating that all the "Trent is so great" people have no accountability for his actual play on the field, and choose to point the finger at other areas of the team as if QB play has not been a problem in 2007 and 2008 when it clearly has...and JP was even worse... So, just in case you are STILL confused...I am saying Trent may very well be great one day as you proclaim, but he DID NOT play at that level in the games he played in 2007 and 2008...and that has been my point all along...
Alphadawg7 Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 I understand what you are saying now, thanks. I would disagree, slightly, because I think Trent had at least the possibility of throwing downfield, when Holcomb had none (even in 2005). Defenses would have likely noticed that, and taken away the short dumps, that Holcomb was capable of. The QB position cost the Bills one game, that Holcomb probably could have won, But, I'm not certain their record would have been better with the 2005 version of KH. Trent certainly has more potential, and can make plays that KH couldn't even think of attempting. Yeah, its definitely not a landslide difference, but I think Kelly would have had been a bit more effective, mainly because the regression of Trent and his injuries I feel cost us wins against SF, CLE, Jets, Mia, and NE. We should have won all those games, some he played, some he didnt because he was hurt. Kelly more likely plays all the games, so that takes out the JP fiasco, plus Trents Cle game was one of the worst I have seen a QB play in. Holcomb did more with a less talented team that year in terms of passing production in less games, not much more, but a little more. But, there is definitely more potential with Trent than there ever was with Holcomb. I was just addressing whether or not our QB play was actually better or worse on the field in 2005 than 2008. If I could choose to have one of them, I of course take Trent on potential.
The Dean Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Yeah, its definitely not a landslide difference, but I think Kelly would have had been a bit more effective, mainly because the regression of Trent and his injuries I feel cost us wins against SF, CLE, Jets, Mia, and NE. We should have won all those games, some he played, some he didnt because he was hurt. Kelly more likely plays all the games, so that takes out the JP fiasco, plus Trents Cle game was one of the worst I have seen a QB play in. Holcomb did more with a less talented team that year in terms of passing production in less games, not much more, but a little more. But, there is definitely more potential with Trent than there ever was with Holcomb. I was just addressing whether or not our QB play was actually better or worse on the field in 2005 than 2008. If I could choose to have one of them, I of course take Trent on potential. Fair enough
keepthefaith Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 it's no use arguing with him about Trent, no matter what you say at the end of the day him and a few others thinks he sucks. Trent is just gonna have to prove them all wrong. Even though the Holcomb statement is pretty absurd Hey, that's what many of us said about Trent at this time last year. Just go out and prove the nay-sayers wrong to which we are now saying - "wait til next year". That's OK, Jauron is on something like his 9th chance at "next year" which makes him one tough cat.
Ray Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 We are much better positioned in terms of the team as a whole. I think most reasonable fans would agree if that we have a legitimate TE and another DE this team is a contender. We had every position as an unknown 3 years ago. Adding 2 impact players helps this team out a lot.
BillsVet Posted February 5, 2009 Author Posted February 5, 2009 We are much better positioned in terms of the team as a whole. I think most reasonable fans would agree if that we have a legitimate TE and another DE this team is a contender. We had every position as an unknown 3 years ago. Adding 2 impact players helps this team out a lot. Every offseason this team needs to solve huge problems. In 07 it was at RB, LB, OL, and CB. In 08 it was LB, WR, DT, and TE. Upgrades are required this year at DE, LB, TE, and C. No wonder mediocrity is the most well-used term when describing the franchise. Having huge needs each off-season is an indication the long term planning on this team plain stinks. Call it a lack of financial resources, but if this team drafted better it wouldn't be in the predicament they always find themselves. A well-known front office executive once said that the prices in free agency are the penalty for drafting poorly.
Bill from NYC Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 I don't bring Flutie into every thread, and never introduce him into a thread that has nothing to do with him. Take a look at your own posting these days, which has gone downhill over the past year or so, Bill. It's all bashing. I see precious little analysis, pros and cons, or moderation in your evaluations. I know you are upset at the development of the team, but other than your post-game analyses, with remain good, and mostly unbiased, you have no perspective anymore. You are obsessed with bashing JP and Levy. Well, they are both gone from the team. I hope you start focusing on what the Bills ACTUALLY have on the team, and not how they got here, or who the team could have had. The other stuff gets old, and has no value at this point. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't respond to a post about JP that you find incredulous, or respond to someone who claims that Levy saved the team as a GM. While I disagree with some of your opinions on those topics, I understand wanting to respond to claims you find unfounded. That's why I respond to claims that Flutie was something other than what he was. Some of these guys think he belongs in the HOF, for Christ's sake. But, I don't believe that I bring up Skin Flutie, out of the blue, off-topic, or have stopped posting in a fair and balanced manor. If I have, point it out to me, when you see it. I have no problem with that. I like and respect you, Bill...but, you've gone a bit crazy lately, IMO. And I respect both your opinions and candor. I guess we all react in different ways to this mess that the franchise is mired in. I must say that just because a person is "gone," their damage doesn't necessarily leave with said person. In this instance I am referring to Levy and not JP, because JP didn't waste a 1st, 2nd and 5th on himself. That bonehead move was all TD, and it hurt us for many years. Where you and I will never agree is on just how crushing the 06 draft was to this team. I am not even saying that the players were all that bad. It was just a very stupid strategy for this team to waste resources like that on dbs, and the results speak for themselves. I hold Levy responsible for this, and hiring Jauron. This is beyond screwing up Brian. It was idiocy that will cost this team a lot, and for a long time. Where is there room for debate? As for now, my views are starting to change for 09. R.Rich is gonna be pissed at me , but I am hating the cover-2 SO much these days, that imo we should concentrate more on offense wrt the draft and free agency. Who knows if anything could help this dumb system? I want Birk as a free agent, even if he costs more than Faneca. Screw it. Then, I hope they draft a TE early. I would be all about Pettigrew, but I'm concerned with his off field issues. This sucks, because he looks like the whole package. He could change, but he could also attend a Mother's Day Party with our other idiot Hardy. In other words, I'm torn. I wouldn't mind a trade down, but only for another #2, and I would only want to lose 8 spots max. With 4 picks in the first 3 rounds I want a TE and an OG. The other 2 could be defensive linemen. So, this is my plan/hope for the Bills, but it is quite unlikely with Dick Levy running the show. I fully expect a 1st round safety from this jackass, and that is what I mean by long term damage. Am I getting more clear?
Sisyphean Bills Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Every offseason this team needs to solve huge problems. In 07 it was at RB, LB, OL, and CB. In 08 it was LB, WR, DT, and TE. Upgrades are required this year at DE, LB, TE, and C. No wonder mediocrity is the most well-used term when describing the franchise. Having huge needs each off-season is an indication the long term planning on this team plain stinks. Call it a lack of financial resources, but if this team drafted better it wouldn't be in the predicament they always find themselves. A well-known front office executive once said that the prices in free agency are the penalty for drafting poorly. It's somewhat comical to read the same defense of Bills players applied over and over again. <insert name> has a lot of potential. <insert name> would be a very good/excellent/great player if the Bills would go out and improve talent at the X, Y, and Z positions around him. Whatever happened to "great players make those around them better"? In effect, the standard defense here is that the Bills players of the future, the wannabes with all that "potential", are not great players at all but rather JAGs (just another guy) that need a few great players (not on the roster) and a much better supporting cast in order to buoy them up out of the below average ranks.
Ray Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Most importantly we are better than three years ago because we have a better QB plain and simple. Of course you always need upgrades every season but we need much less than we did 3 years ago. Our QB was JP Losman 3 years ago. Enough said. Listen to people around the league talk about JP and they consider him terrible. TE is an obvious upgrade but that is not saying a lot right now. Let's see how this season plays out. If he plays consistent then he is a top 10 QB.....10-0 when his QB rating is over 80.
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 As for now, my views are starting to change for 09. R.Rich is gonna be pissed at me , but I am hating the cover-2 SO much these days, that imo we should concentrate more on offense wrt the draft and free agency. Who knows if anything could help this dumb system? Everybody seems to hate the cover 2 but nobody ever explains why they hate it.
Magox Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Everybody seems to hate the cover 2 but nobody ever explains why they hate it. They hate it because it hasn't been working for us. Which I blame to not having Effective Edge rushers, which is vital.
All_Pro_Bills Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 Every offseason this team needs to solve huge problems. In 07 it was at RB, LB, OL, and CB. In 08 it was LB, WR, DT, and TE. Upgrades are required this year at DE, LB, TE, and C. No wonder mediocrity is the most well-used term when describing the franchise. Having huge needs each off-season is an indication the long term planning on this team plain stinks. Call it a lack of financial resources, but if this team drafted better it wouldn't be in the predicament they always find themselves. A well-known front office executive once said that the prices in free agency are the penalty for drafting poorly. It would be nice to know exactly what the team's long term plan is, if there is one. IMO, as long as we have a poor front office and lousy head coach, we will not sniff the playoffs no matter how many position upgrades are made. While a debate about the play of Edwards vs. Losman, or somebody else is interesting, it’s just an academic exercise because it’s not going to make much difference who plays the QB position. Payton Manning or Drew Brees couldn't get this team to the playoffs with the current front office and coaching staff running the show. Like in any business, you can take smart, motivated, and talented people and put them in a business that is run by inept and incompetent management and they will not succeed. Again IMO, I see this team as underachieving. Sure they need to upgrade at certain positions like DE, C, TE, but a better coach and motivator on the sidelines could have gotten 2 or 3 more wins out of this bunch. I try to maintain some level of optimism but it’s difficult. I think we'll be looking at a top 8 draft choice in '10.
BillsVet Posted February 5, 2009 Author Posted February 5, 2009 It would be nice to know exactly what the team's long term plan is, if there is one. IMO, as long as we have a poor front office and lousy head coach, we will not sniff the playoffs no matter how many position upgrades are made. While a debate about the play of Edwards vs. Losman, or somebody else is interesting, it’s just an academic exercise because it’s not going to make much difference who plays the QB position. Payton Manning or Drew Brees couldn't get this team to the playoffs with the current front office and coaching staff running the show. Like in any business, you can take smart, motivated, and talented people and put them in a business that is run by inept and incompetent management and they will not succeed. Again IMO, I see this team as underachieving. Sure they need to upgrade at certain positions like DE, C, TE, but a better coach and motivator on the sidelines could have gotten 2 or 3 more wins out of this bunch. I try to maintain some level of optimism but it’s difficult. I think we'll be looking at a top 8 draft choice in '10. Excellent post. It's a touchy subject, but collective talent rarely overcomes poor coaching. Good coaching can, on the contrary, make average or below average talent better as in the case of the Dolphins. Players are the most visible people for this franchise, and that's why they get a large part of the blame. We see when they screw up or succeed. Meanwhile, when a John Guy, Jeff Littman, Russ Brandon, or Jim Overdorf make a mistake, we don't see them. But it is manifested in the team that takes the field. There's little demand to change the front office before players, but it's clear the Bills aren't interested in making changes to the front office despite many of the same people running the show since 2001. Naturally, fan ire is directed to on-field personnel, coaches included. Every solid NFL team has a capable GM and coaching staff that can carry the GM's vision onto the field with the team. Buffalo has no GM, and a coach who I don't think could coach any of the other 31 NFL teams. It's my hope that if 2009 is bad, the entire front office is nuked. Brandon should be reduced to marketing boy again, to pave the way for a real GM.
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