Lamarr Woodley

[Lurker]

Ted Washington would tie up a guard and a center on almost every play, and free up other defenders to make tackles.

Jmo, but I think that the 3/4 is a much better system than the dopey thing that we use.

It is a better scheme...if you get lucky enough to have a Ted Washington-like NT to clog the middle on running downs.

 

Since guys like Washington (or Casey Hampton) don't grow on trees, the Tampa-2 "bend but don't break" band-aid defense exists.

[gobillsinytown]

So what I'm saying is that while I'm all for sticking with a scheme to try to really master it and suit the talent you've already got other than pipe-dreaming about copying some playoff team's defense, the Bills have failed to acquire the talent they needed to run their own damn scheme. I'd say we transition to a base 4-3, trying to take advantage of our ability to blitz from Mitchell and Whiter, and get solid coverage from Greer, McGee, and McKelvin.

 

I like that idea. If they were to get another DL via free agency or the draft, then it's a good scheme.

[rackemrack]

I think I'd come down in favor of picking one scheme and sticking to it, because I think you have to consider the fact that changing schemes likely means hurting the performance of most of the players on your roster, and you should expect to return at least 8 of them from year to year.

 

The other benefit to base-scheme continuity, I think, is that the more familiar your players are with your base package, the more able they'll be to spend time working on throwing different looks at the opposing offense. Look at the Steelers again here - they play a 3-4, but they spent a good chunk of the game in a 2-4-5 nickel package, and even played some Cover 2 (albeit with three down linemen instead of the Bills' four). That flexibility gives you the best options, I think, and other strong defenses familiar with their base sets can do this as well (look at the Patriots flex back and forth between the 3-4 and the 4-3).

 

I think the Bills' problem right now is that even after three years of the Tampa 2, they STILL don't have enough talent to make it work, due to very few of their choices landing. They have one good defensive end in Aaron Schobel, and despite a lack of pass rush from the ends, the player they've added in the Jauron era who's made the most plays from that position is what, Copeland Bryan? Meanwhile Kelsay plays like an Arena bowler and Denney shows why he's a backup. Inside, they hit on Stroud and whiffed on McCargo, leaving them starting a depth DT in Kyle Williams, who plays with heart but not with the skill they need.

 

The LB corps suffered due to some injuries, but still, they have an average LB in Poz, and some promise in Mitchell, though his strength seems to be as a blitzing LB. I've lost track of what I expect from Crowell, but he's never been a star player.

 

Then in the secondary, you've got Whitner playing more like Jim Leonard than Bob Sanders across from Ko Money Ko Problems, and neither providing the run support a Tampa 2 needs. And somehow, they've put together a solid corps of cover corners after telling us they didn't need cover corners

 

So what I'm saying is that while I'm all for sticking with a scheme to try to really master it and suit the talent you've already got other than pipe-dreaming about copying some playoff team's defense, the Bills have failed to acquire the talent they needed to run their own damn scheme. I'd say we transition to a base 4-3, trying to take advantage of our ability to blitz from Mitchell and Whiter, and get solid coverage from Greer, McGee, and McKelvin.

 

i couldn't have said it any better

[Mark Vader]

I think we've had this discussion before, William.

 

He was an undersized DE, which means he was tailor made for a 3-4 team as an edge rusher. I told my brother when I watched Woodley return a Brady Quinn fumble for a score as his Michgan team beat Quinn's "that school" team in college, "he's a future Steeler: a smallish DE w/ tons of athleticism".

 

BTW, I still have that play from the Michigan-"that school" game on my tivo. I love Tom Hammonds' call afterward: "As we say in the South....this is a whoopin'!" It sure was.

Oh man Rich, I remember that play vividly. It was a thing of beauty watching my Wolverines beat the hell out of "that swchool" on that day, in South Bend too.

I now look at Michigan and wonder what the hell has happened. Rich Rodriguez has turned the Wolverines into a laughingstock in just one season. He better be as good as advertised when he was at West Virginia.

[PushthePile]

please list which "successful" 3-4 teams do NOT have a monster DL. The Ravens have one of the best DL in the biz, as do the patriots*.

Please explain to me how the Ravens have a monster DL? Halot Ngata is a very nice player. Other than that who's the monster Jarret Johnson, Trevor Pryce, or our very own Justin Bannan. If you try telling me Pryce is still playing at an elite level, I'm going to tell you he had 4.5 sacks this year and 27 tackles. Last year he had 17 tackles and 2 sacks. I also consider the Steelers to have a fairly successful defense as well. Do you think that players like Hampton. Smith, and Keisel are amongst the NFL elite? I think they are very nice role players. Casey Hampton has 5.5 career sacks because they don't rely on their tackles to rush the quarterback. The Jests, Cowboys, and Chargers have also played good defense without being stacked on the line. Kris Jenkins and Jamaal Williams are both really nice players but IMO, not impossible pieces to aquire. The *Pats are stacked on the line and they play more 4-3 than any of these other teams. I'm not trying to say that the 3-4 is far and away the best system. I just think it's the best option for the Bills.

[gobillsinytown]

Please explain to me how the Ravens have a monster DL? Halot Ngata is a very nice player. Other than that who's the monster Jarret Johnson, Trevor Pryce, or our very own Justin Bannan. If you try telling me Pryce is still playing at an elite level, I'm going to tell you he had 4.5 sacks this year and 27 tackles. Last year he had 17 tackles and 2 sacks. I also consider the Steelers to have a fairly successful defense as well. Do you think that players like Hampton. Smith, and Keisel are amongst the NFL elite? I think they are very nice role players. Casey Hampton has 5.5 career sacks because they don't rely on their tackles to rush the quarterback. The Jests, Cowboys, and Chargers have also played good defense without being stacked on the line. Kris Jenkins and Jamaal Williams are both really nice players but IMO, not impossible pieces to aquire. The *Pats are stacked on the line and they play more 4-3 than any of these other teams. I'm not trying to say that the 3-4 is far and away the best system. I just think it's the best option for the Bills.

 

The key to the 3-4 isn't the two DE's, although it certainly helps. The key to a successful 3-4 is to have an NT who can consistently tie up two offensive lineman. He has to keep the middle of the line clogged up. Those guys are hard to find.

Ngata is one of them, Hampton is another. So you don't have to have a monster DL, but you do have to have a

monster NT. I think for the Bills, the transition from cover 2 to base 4-3 makes better sense.

[Fixxxer]

Please explain to me how the Ravens have a monster DL? Halot Ngata is a very nice player. Other than that who's the monster Jarret Johnson, Trevor Pryce, or our very own Justin Bannan. If you try telling me Pryce is still playing at an elite level, I'm going to tell you he had 4.5 sacks this year and 27 tackles. Last year he had 17 tackles and 2 sacks. I also consider the Steelers to have a fairly successful defense as well. Do you think that players like Hampton. Smith, and Keisel are amongst the NFL elite? I think they are very nice role players. Casey Hampton has 5.5 career sacks because they don't rely on their tackles to rush the quarterback. The Jests, Cowboys, and Chargers have also played good defense without being stacked on the line. Kris Jenkins and Jamaal Williams are both really nice players but IMO, not impossible pieces to aquire. The *Pats are stacked on the line and they play more 4-3 than any of these other teams. I'm not trying to say that the 3-4 is far and away the best system. I just think it's the best option for the Bills.

 

I disagree, you need pure talent at NT for this defense to function, overall these guys don't rack up lots of stats but they are the big reason their teammates are able to make plays. Then you need stout guys at DE that can hold their ground.

 

Casey Hampton is one of the main reasons this defense is that good. Keisel and Smith are his DEs, solid but unspectacular.

 

Jamaal Williams for the Chargers, too, though the last couple of years he has been battling some injuries, he along

Hampton are two of the best. Castillo and Olshanky are the DEs.

 

Vince Wilfork for the Patriots, he along two other first rounders are the reason why they can plug anyone behind them and still make plays. Jarvis Green has been making plays for them at DE, very underrated player.

 

Haloti Ngata is elite, without him Ray Lewis was constantly blocked by a lineman. He implored his FO and coaches to address the situation and they drafted Ngata.

 

Jason Fergusson, while he's not elite he is a big reason for Miami's defense turnaround.

 

The Jets didn't have the talent with Robertson, this year they brought Jenkins and that defense imroved a lot, but because he's not a pure NT that defense faded away at the end of the year.

 

 

Other than Ferguson those guys were drafted in the early rounds. Williams was picked on the 2nd round of the 1998 supplemental draft, Hampton, Wilfork and Ngata were drafted in the first round.

 

If you don't have a good NT it's not an easy defense to build. But still I like this defense better than the 4-3 defense.

[Bill from NYC]

The Jets didn't have the talent with Robertson, this year they brought Jenkins and that defense imroved a lot, but because he's not a pure NT that defense faded away at the end of the year.

 

Jenkins was hurt. Before the injury, he was playing as good as any defender in the NFL imo.

[Huuuge Bills]

I now look at Michigan and wonder what the hell has happened. Rich Rodriguez has turned the Wolverines into a laughingstock in just one season. He better be as good as advertised when he was at West Virginia.

 

I've been thinking the same thing myself. One of the main reasons I started to watch Michigan in the first place was because of the style of play. Tough running game, tough defense. I loved watching guys like Chris Perry and Mike Hart.

 

Now we have R. Rodriguez and his gimmicky offense. I'm still a fan, but I can't stand to watch all of the trick plays. It's just not Michigan football anymore.

 

It's like putting a Cadillac badge on a Honda fit. It may say Cadillac, but it's just not the same.

[Magox]

Please explain to me how the Ravens have a monster DL? Halot Ngata is a very nice player. Other than that who's the monster Jarret Johnson, Trevor Pryce, or our very own Justin Bannan. If you try telling me Pryce is still playing at an elite level, I'm going to tell you he had 4.5 sacks this year and 27 tackles. Last year he had 17 tackles and 2 sacks. I also consider the Steelers to have a fairly successful defense as well. Do you think that players like Hampton. Smith, and Keisel are amongst the NFL elite? I think they are very nice role players. Casey Hampton has 5.5 career sacks because they don't rely on their tackles to rush the quarterback. The Jests, Cowboys, and Chargers have also played good defense without being stacked on the line. Kris Jenkins and Jamaal Williams are both really nice players but IMO, not impossible pieces to aquire. The *Pats are stacked on the line and they play more 4-3 than any of these other teams. I'm not trying to say that the 3-4 is far and away the best system. I just think it's the best option for the Bills.

ummm

 

you just mentioned it. Haloti Ngata

 

He qualifies as a monster

[PushthePile]

ummm

 

you just mentioned it. Haloti Ngata

 

He qualifies as a monster

I wasn't trying to downplay the talent of Ngata at all. I was responding to Ramius who said the Ravens have one of the best DL in the NFL. Other than Ngata they have capable average players on the line. Luisma said he disagreed with me on NT in the 3-4, but I think I did a poor job explaining my thoughts. The NT is the most important position in the 3-4. That is why Williams, Wilfork, Ngata, and Hampton are arguably the best on their respective lines. My point was that the rest of the line is alot easier to fill once you have the centerpiece. Players like Aaron Smith, Justin Smith, and maybe even Spencer Johnson can be effective in this scheme as DEs. This type of DE is not hard to find and comes at a discount compared to a Dwight Freeney or Jared Allen. As for the linebackers in a 3-4, take your pick because every year their are more and more of these guys. Looking at the Bills situation for fun. You could put Stroud in the middle and slide Johnson out to the end with Kyle williams on the other end. The line could also be upgraded in FA without having to spend the farm on a Peppers. I would also feel alot more comfortable drafting a big strong DE like Tyson Jackson if we didn't have to rely on him as a big time pass rush player. I think you get alot more out of Mitchell and Schobel on the outside in a 3-4 than you do in their current roles. Poz would man the middle with Crowell and neither would be forced into playing outside their skill sets. As far as the draft goes you grab an English, Orapko, or Brown and rotate them into the mix. To me we are closer to being able to run a good 3-4 than we are a Tampa 2.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I wasn't trying to downplay the talent of Ngata at all. I was responding to Ramius who said the Ravens have one of the best DL in the NFL. Other than Ngata they have capable average players on the line. Luisma said he disagreed with me on NT in the 3-4, but I think I did a poor job explaining my thoughts. The NT is the most important position in the 3-4. That is why Williams, Wilfork, Ngata, and Hampton are arguably the best on their respective lines. My point was that the rest of the line is alot easier to fill once you have the centerpiece. Players like Aaron Smith, Justin Smith, and maybe even Spencer Johnson can be effective in this scheme as DEs. This type of DE is not hard to find and comes at a discount compared to a Dwight Freeney or Jared Allen. As for the linebackers in a 3-4, take your pick because every year their are more and more of these guys. Looking at the Bills situation for fun. You could put Stroud in the middle and slide Johnson out to the end with Kyle williams on the other end. The line could also be upgraded in FA without having to spend the farm on a Peppers. I would also feel alot more comfortable drafting a big strong DE like Tyson Jackson if we didn't have to rely on him as a big time pass rush player. I think you get alot more out of Mitchell and Schobel on the outside in a 3-4 than you do in their current roles. Poz would man the middle with Crowell and neither would be forced into playing outside their skill sets. As far as the draft goes you grab an English, Orapko, or Brown and rotate them into the mix. To me we are closer to being able to run a good 3-4 than we are a Tampa 2.

Agreed with some of what you said but Stroud is not a 3-4 nose tackle. He'd actually be a pretty good 3-4 end a la Richard Seymour. If the Bills were to switch schemes, they'd be best served drafting B.J. Raji or getting a true nose tackle somewhere.

[PushthePile]

Agreed with some of what you said but Stroud is not a 3-4 nose tackle. He'd actually be a pretty good 3-4 end a la Richard Seymour. If the Bills were to switch schemes, they'd be best served drafting B.J. Raji or getting a true nose tackle somewhere.

I have heard that before about Stroud. You could be right. I was just playing around with combinations. I don't know why he couldn't be a 3-4 NT. Is it his body or ability? B.J. Raji would be the a great start.

[Bill from NYC]

I have heard that before about Stroud. You could be right. I was just playing around with combinations. I don't know why he couldn't be a 3-4 NT. Is it his body or ability? B.J. Raji would be the a great start.

 

It is about body type, and also style.

For instance, Big Sam Adams looked like a nose tackle, but he wasn't. Guys like him and Stroud seem to play for that quick first step penetration.

Stroud is much more of an agile DT than a NT. He could really use someone next to him to tie up blockers, instead of getting bowled over ala Kyle Williams.

[PushthePile]

It is about body type, and also style.

For instance, Big Sam Adams looked like a nose tack;e, but he wasn't. Guys like him and Stroud seem to play for that quick first step penetration.

Stroud is much more of an agile DT than a NT. He could really use someone next to him to tie up blockers, instead of getting bowled over ala Kyle Williams.

Thanks Bill, I never really picked up on that. It's easy to be fooled into just looking at size I guess.

[Ramius]

It is about body type, and also style.

For instance, Big Sam Adams looked like a nose tack;e, but he wasn't. Guys like him and Stroud seem to play for that quick first step penetration.

Stroud is much more of an agile DT than a NT. He could really use someone next to him to tie up blockers, instead of getting bowled over ala Kyle Williams.

 

Stroud would be a terror with someone worth a damn next to him. Look at how him and henderson flourished in j-ville. Now, both of them aren't as effective alone as they were together. I dont mean to say stroud isn't good, because he is, but he's the type that can be a game changer when the defense needs to focus on someone else as well.

[34-78-83]

please explain to me how that link goes against what I said.

 

and, additionally, you don't even need to have your safeties being the ones dropping back to make it a cover 2. all it means is that 2 people are covering the back halves of the field.

 

Because you're talking about a 2-deep zone, not a cover 2 defense, which invloves D lineman, gaps, positioning, underneath zones, etc. etc.

[stuckincincy]

It is about body type, and also style.

For instance, Big Sam Adams looked like a nose tackle, but he wasn't. Guys like him and Stroud seem to play for that quick first step penetration.

 

A poster here once described Adams perfectly - a terrifically quick, fast blitz linebacker who happened to be built like a rhinoceros.

 

He played a season for CIN. IIRC, he sat out for 4 or 5 games, until he rounded ( ) into game shape. Old story there with Adams. Now, the B'gals were podunk - but Adams did what he always did - he commanded constant double-teaming.

 

You have to love a DL that occupies 2 of your opponent's OLs or makes them commit a RB.