The Dean Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Dean--those are weak studies. There have been studies as well in the SF bay area showing NO positive economic impact. 1664 jobs???? shoveling snow in the Rich stadium lot is not a full time job.Show me a real study with all the pros and cons listed--not some promo done to justify raping the taxpayers for a new stadium and box seats. Making an impact on the Bay area ecomony is FAR different than making an impact on the WNY economy. As far as I know, almost all the fans for 49er games, are local to the Bay area. If the ad money wasn't spent on the 49er telecasts, there are Giants games, A's games, Warrior games, etc. It is an apples-to-oranges comparisons. I wouldn't use a major market, as a means to compare for Buffalo. Every study I have read, for a new team, has a positive economic impact. I think the challenge is for you to produce one that shows the Bills do NOT have a positive economic on the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Him saying he is not in it for the money doesn't mean he isn't clipping his coupons while he's standing in the check out line. He's not going to screw his family out of hundreds of millions of dollars for your wishes. He's not going to give up the rush of being the head honcho of an NFL team to titillate your assumptive fantasies. How do you know that there is a group out there that is going to buy the team with an iron-clad contract that the team has to remain in Buffalo no matter what? Who are the parties involved in such a contract anyway? Is a contract between a prospective owner and "the fanbase" enforceable? For the amount of money involved, no competent attorney is going to allow his client to sign something that doesn't have reasonable provisos and clauses for resolving disputes. Especially long after one party is dead and the contract may contain clauses that are damaging to the value of the asset. And, a long dead Ralph's wishes might not look so good if the Bills become financially strapped and the NFL has other vastly more viable markets that it wants to explore. But, that's OK. Back in Neverland, all things are possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Every study I have read, for a new team, has a positive economic impact. I think the challenge is for you to produce one that shows the Bills do NOT have a positive economic on the area. How does any business not have any impact on its local economy?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 How does any business not have any impact on its local economy?!? Indeed. The point I believe Tali is making, is does the benefit (which is undeniable) offset the cost to the taxpayer. I'd argue that the taxpayer investment also contributes, positively, to that economic impact. Buffalo is well known as a "savings bank" city. It isn't as if it is a given that the taxpayers would be spending that money elsewhere, in the local economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Making an impact on the Bay area ecomony is FAR different than making an impact on the WNY economy. As far as I know, almost all the fans for 49er games, are local to the Bay area. If the ad money wasn't spent on the 49er telecasts, there are Giants games, A's games, Warrior games, etc. It is an apples-to-oranges comparisons. I wouldn't use a major market, as a means to compare for Buffalo. Every study I have read, for a new team, has a positive economic impact. I think the challenge is for you to produce one that shows the Bills do NOT have a positive economic on the area. The point is to what degree.And I say it is very small.-But lets not quibble until we see a real study. Those who state that Buffalo will be devastated economically if the Bills leave...I think that is a joke.-I see very little overall positive economic impact for the individual in Buffalo.-I would hate for the Bills to leave...But I think peoples time and ingenuity can be better served than watching the Bills lose on sundays. 8 games a year....lots of county costs and policing costs...maybe a couple hundred full time jobs. I say we keep the Bills but not delude ourselves that they make any large econmic impact on the region. Thats a poor argument.--The better argument for keeping them here is the sense of community that they bring to the area.Losing brings families together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Has Jim Kelly made an offer? Do you think Jim Kelly has the kind of money to buy the team? Kelly is trying like hell to put together a group to buy the team if, and when, Ralph is ready to sell. (Good for him. I hope he gets it together.) There is ZERO indication that he actually has people ready, willing and able to buy the team, and as far as we know NO offer has been made. Actually, Goodell said a few months ago that he has spoken to Kelly and knows of the group he has put together. It doesn't mean that they will offer enough money to buy the team, or they are Buffalo's best chance, but it legitimized it to me. I think there are several groups with enough money to keep them here. It does not necessarily have to go to the highest bidder, regardless of some things that have been said here. I guarantee that Ralph has made provisions to try to keep the team here, and will do what he can. But there are some outside factors. If an outside group comes in and offers, say, 50-100 million more than any Buffalo group, it may be difficult for the trust that Ralph set up and the NFL owners to turn that down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandConfused Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 No and I mean specifically posters on TSW, pundits, in the press, any so-called experts and even Ralph himself knows exactly what will happen after he is dead, nor can any of them unilaterally decide this no matter how much money they have. However, what Ralph says is of great import since as 100% owner of this asset with little or no debt attached to it that we know of, how Ralph decides to dispose of this asset in his will will determine a lot of the framework of what happens, With this knowledge this strikes me as fact: Ralph can leave this asset to an entity or in a manner which either promotes it being sold to some entity that will move it or he can dispose of it in a manner which virtually assures the Bills will stay in Buffalo. The bet based on his current comments almost certainly has to be that he would dispose of it in a manner which keeps the team here. There are myriad legal ways he can do this such as leaving the team to an irrevocable charitable trust. Of course their are downsides to this in terms of keeping the family in traditional control which it would be difficult (though not impossible with a fleet of lawyers and a larcenous heart) to do in this model. However, it can be done in a manner which both kicks a bunch of cash to Ralph's heirs and avoids the heaviest of capital gains inheritance taxes which a traditional sale of the team would entail. Maybe he won't, but he can if he wants to and his current statements indicate this may well be the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandConfused Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Name one person with the money that has given a 100% absolute assurance that they'll keep the team in Buffalo for 50 more years. Please. No one person has done this because no one person can do this. In the long gone past, on person could pony up their 10K or so and buy an NFL franchise. However, today no individual has the liquid assets to simply guarantee that the franchise will stay, move or do otherwise. Sure, there are individuals who have enough wealth that they can leverage, borrow, cajole and beg there way into putting together the ability to borrow big bucks from a large financial marketing institution that they could purchase the Bills. However, it is simply a misunderstanding of the modern economic system to look for one individual to do what you as. It is no wonder there is no positive answer to your question. The actual decision-making authorities you need to look to are: 1. Ralph- There are a number of ways for him to "dispose" of the Bills in his will which will make the team easier to move (with an incredibly heavy lift in doing this) or harder or virtually impossible to move if he disposes of this asset in a manner which limits the tax liability of his heirs and gets them a fair degree of influence over the future of the team. 2. The NFL which is currently led by former WNYer Goodell. In order to purchase the team anyone be it Bill Gates or Warren Buffett will need to win the approval of a majority of the current owners. If Goodell and other forces make the case that actually their is more financial upside to keeping the team here for the NFL rather than moving it, they may represent the holder of large amounts of capital you are looking for. The ways it benefits the NFL business to stay here rather than go are: A. One of the major cards which kept an NFL franchise called the Browns in Cleveland was that the threat was made of endangering the NFLs limited anti-trust exemption if it screwed Cleveland. Likely the same threat really raises a huge economic downside to moving. B. The actual NFL marketing strategy is one the aspires to expand to new markets increasing the size of the pie rather than merely moving the pie around to benefit individual owners. - A bunch of sad press about a town getting screwed when their franchise pulls out is not a great selling point for trying to sell a city on placing its hopes and dreams on a franchise. - building and keeping connections with original NFL and AFL teams is a good selling point for getting new cities to join the club. Essentially there is more money to be made selling the NFL as a stable product as an entity than there is to be made by trying to get the maximum # of dollars out of some individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Glad he is in the hall, but I will be even happier when he dont own the Bills. You'll get your wish soon enough..be careful what you wish for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heels20X6 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 The point is to what degree.And I say it is very small.-But lets not quibble until we see a real study. Those who state that Buffalo will be devastated economically if the Bills leave...I think that is a joke.-I see very little overall positive economic impact for the individual in Buffalo.-I would hate for the Bills to leave...But I think peoples time and ingenuity can be better served than watching the Bills lose on sundays. 8 games a year....lots of county costs and policing costs...maybe a couple hundred full time jobs.I say we keep the Bills but not delude ourselves that they make any large econmic impact on the region. Thats a poor argument.--The better argument for keeping them here is the sense of community that they bring to the area.Losing brings families together. As a person who lived in Winnipeg and saw the effects of the Jets leaving the city, I can tell you first hand that their relocation CRIPPLED the city economically. There was no tenant for the arena, no money spent on parking 42 times a year, the lost revenue by bars and restaurants near and around the arena and a crippling effect on the morale of the youth in Winnipeg who exited en mass as soon as they had the opportunity because the one thing that gave the city a national identity was gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 For the people that didn't see it, he gave a long speech about how much the team means to buffalo, how football isn't about making a profit to him, its about the fathers that take the kids to the game, about the competition and about the quality of life for the people in the community. He was talking about how crushing it would be for the team to leave buffalo and (i thnk he was referring to the colts) said its a crushing blow to a city when they wake up one day and their football team is gone. It might be wishful thinking, and I know its been said that the team will go to the highest bidder, but listening to him, I can't help but think he's gonna find a way to make sure the team stays after he dies. I am very glad Ralph has made it to the Hall of Fame. He was an important part of buidling what is now the NFL. Fans in New England, Oakland and especially Buffalo should be grateful to him for their tem's existence. We can argue all we want about rosters, salary caps, coaches, labor agreements and anything else but the Bills existence is because of Ralph. I watched a little bit of the Sabres game last night (in Phoenix). It was the Coyotes feed but they kept showing people in Sabres gear throughout the place. This happens in Carolina, Dallas and several other places. What has happened to the city of Buffalo over the years is sad, but the bond people have built with their teams transcends the distance from which many fans now view. The value this team holds is largely based on the team being the BUFFALO Bills. Those people in Phoenix would not have been their last night if the Sabres had moved a few years ago. I don't know if the city will ever come back to what it was; in fact I dooubt it. I do know that Ralph could have received a lot of money to sell the team to LA or Toronto or San Antonio interests. Ralph has shown by his actions (or inaction in not selling) over the years, and by his brief speech yesterday that he understands the difference between money and VALUE. I know people cringe when he gives a speech and I do sometimes as well. Usually what he says has a lot of value in its content if you listen. I hope his induction speech echoes his words from yesterday and I hope some of the other owners pay attention (fat chance). I'm actually looking forward to it. Thanks Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Actually, Goodell said a few months ago that he has spoken to Kelly and knows of the group he has put together. It doesn't mean that they will offer enough money to buy the team, or they are Buffalo's best chance, but it legitimized it to me. I think there are several groups with enough money to keep them here. It does not necessarily have to go to the highest bidder, regardless of some things that have been said here. I guarantee that Ralph has made provisions to try to keep the team here, and will do what he can. But there are some outside factors. If an outside group comes in and offers, say, 50-100 million more than any Buffalo group, it may be difficult for the trust that Ralph set up and the NFL owners to turn that down. Jimbo may have a group together but remember that Ralph could live for another 10+ years ... while statisticallly not likely it could be 20 years. That is a long time to hold together a group of investors. We will not know the reality until the day of ralph's passing happens. Until then live life one day at a time and let's hope the WNY economy stabilizes and grows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Name one person with the money that has given a 100% absolute assurance that they'll keep the team in Buffalo for 50 more years. Please. Please do not throw logic into any post here on TSW, they are not appreciated. Fans seem to think that there are hundreds of investors lining up right now begging Ralph to sell the team to them os they can keep the team in Buffalo for aslong as the NFL is around, when in fact, there are less then a handful of people with ties to Western New york that could even possibly have the kind of money needed to purchase them. It will be a real eye opening experience when gfans see what will happen ifthey can find someone to buy this team and what will most likely be needed to change just to break even every year, let alone spend money like the fans want/expect them to. Increases in prices for everything, serious budgets tokeep salaries down........, a new owner is going to have debts to pay if they don't have the $800million+ to purchase the team, which means they will have more Bills to pay then what Ralph has now. Just look at what Tom Golisano has done with the Sabres. He has had a self imposed cap on the team keeping them below the cap in all but one season that he ahs owned the team, no big FA spending, letting higher priced guys go because of economics. And thats after only spending about a 1/4 of what would be spent to own the Bills. He inherited a team that went to 2 straight Eastern Conference Championships, and the only reason they had one year without a self imposed cap is because he caught the Sabres fever and knew he had to spend to keep the fans coming in and given it a run forthe cup. When that failed, he went back to a budget. First thing for him is the bottom line, staying out of the red, next comes winning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 2. The NFL which is currently led by former WNYer Goodell. In order to purchase the team anyone be it Bill Gates or Warren Buffett will need to win the approval of a majority of the current owners. If Goodell and other forces make the case that actually their is more financial upside to keeping the team here for the NFL rather than moving it, they may represent the holder of large amounts of capital you are looking for. But what if no group that can guarantee that the team will stay in Buffalo steps forward? orthe only group who comes forward can't offer anything anywhere closeto what other groups can? Just cause Goodell is from WNY and has said he will try and keep the bills in buffalowhen he comes to Buffalo, it doesn't mean its a guarantee, he has a whole group of other NFL owners who may not agree and might be looking at the bigger (financial) picture of another team located in a better market. The NFL is a buisness first, and the key toany buisness is what makes sence financially first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Jimbo may have a group together but remember that Ralph could live for another 10+ years ... while statisticallly not likely it could be 20 years. That is a long time to hold together a group of investors. We will not know the reality until the day of ralph's passing happens. Until then live life one day at a time and let's hope the WNY economy stabilizes and grows. Why is it that I keep picturing Jimbo's group being led by that guy that came to Buffalo to build the sky scrapper and redo the Statler building. What ever happened to him? Seems like around the time that the whole Jimbo investor group talk died down was around the time he ran out of town selling the Statler building Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cotton Fitzsimmons Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Who has offered to buy the team, and keep it in Buffalo? A group comprised of Ye Ole' Cotton, The Dean, and Jim Kelly will one day own the Buffalo Bills. And we will return the franchise to "Glory Days" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandConfused Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 But what if no group that can guarantee that the team will stay in Buffalo steps forward? orthe only group who comes forward can't offer anything anywhere closeto what other groups can? Just cause Goodell is from WNY and has said he will try and keep the bills in buffalowhen he comes to Buffalo, it doesn't mean its a guarantee, he has a whole group of other NFL owners who may not agree and might be looking at the bigger (financial) picture of another team located in a better market. The NFL is a buisness first, and the key toany buisness is what makes sence financially first There is no guarantee of anything in this life. This to me is why it is so silly that some folks claim its a stone cold certainty that the Bills are gone. In the big picture who knows. I agree that the ultimate determinants are going to be how Ralph choose to dispose of this asset in his will (the will not make the outcome certain as Ralph will be dead so the will can be interpreted to mean something other than what he intends, however, his will will make it very difficult to move or easy to move. On the face of it, my sense is that one of the easier ways for him to avoid taxation on this asset is to have it go to an irrevocable not for profit trust which essentially is controlled by his family. Likewise the other major business determinant will be the NFL which will maintain a veto over any buyer. Again, the big $ for the league appears to me not to come from selling to some highest bidder, but instead to expand the product to new markets in foreign countries. In this world the greater financial value of the team would be found in retaining its connection to the past by keeping the franchise here and selling to new eyeballs this connection to the historic past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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