Gaughan's Case for Andre

[McD]

mc d read all of the posts first...i started out saying reed wasnt as hall of fame worthy as rice, carter, moss, and harrison...and lv said explain to him why carter is a hall of famer

 

Carter is Hall worthy...I never said he wasn't and I don't think anyone could, but all the "experts" point to Carter deserving to go in before Reed. I don't think it's the case. They both have to be looked at for more than just straight stats. Look behind the stats. There's more to them than what you see.

 

Case in point...when the Bills were 4-0 this year and everyone was all happy, I knew better. I kept saying this wasn't a true 4-0 team...they've gotten by with smoke and mirrors and guess what? I was right. Now I'm not saying Carter's career was a sham, far from it. But, what you see isn't all telling right up front.

[JPDontletthedoorhityourars]

Dude your getting silly...I hear you and agree Reed wasn't the best ever, but damn, please come to the table with a better argument. I think we can both agree that Reed played in more of a RUN first offense than Carter...I think we can both agree that Carter had a better supporting WR cast for the majority of his career. Carter was a terrific WR, but he couldn't do was Andre did, which was run across the middle...take a 5 yd pass and turn it upfield for huge gains. Carter ran great routes and caught a lot of balls on the sidelines, and down field...I have no issue with that at all, but Reed was something special because of that, he could run outs, stretch the field AND run across the middle. Not many WR's in the Hall could compare. Let's also throw in a VERY big fact that Carter played in a DOME for most of his career!! Carter didn't have it great with Salisbury or McMahon, but they didn't play with him long and neither had a complete season with him. Also he never played a down with Wade Wilson! Please dont pretend that Warren Moon or Randall Cuningham couldn't throw the rock, you're embarrassing yourself. They both had great passing stats in the years that they played with Carter. Also, please tell me a Chris carter game that stands out for you? I can't remember a single catch of his. Look, both theses guys are deserving of the Hall...their stats are pretty similar...Carter has a slight statistical advantage, but considering the offensive schemes he played on (pass happy), and the conditions (Dome), AND the fact the guy NEVER exposed himself across the middle of the field, a case can be made for Reed ahead of Carter this Hall ballot. Will it happen? Probably not, and that's too bad. Stats are a HUGE part of the selection process, but it shouldn't be all telling, and it's not in this case...Reed was a better all around weapon.

 

 

WOW! The people describing Reed as "a very good" player are way out of line. He was the #2 wide receiver of his era 1988-1993. I propose the people making these statements were too young to really remember his play or were still learning to understand his true impact. Andre Reed was a PLAY-MAKER! I remember having arguments aound 1989-91 debating whether he was better than Jerry Rice because of the offense he played in. Reed did it all--he was a great blocker, route runner, great YAC, phenomenal hands--like I said the other day Larry Fitz is a replica of Andre (with a bit more talent) and maybe less surly. If Art Monk went in, Andre has to go in at some point. I submit though Cris Carter will go in because of his phenomenal acrobatics.

[TheBlackMamba]

Case hardly closed...Carter caught a WHOPPING 8 passes more a year than Reed...that's what an extra catch every other game? Wow...you're right that's ENORMOUS! Think of how many games the Bills were just running clock in the last qtr of games. We wont even talk about Carters offense or the Dome he played in...JEESH! TD's, lets not even go there...you know the Bills pounded the rock WAY more than the Vikings so of course his stats would be bloated a bit there. Why did you ignore the posts about their resective showings in the playoffs? Hmm....???

 

 

 

 

basically what i am trying to say is to be a hall of famer you should have exceptional numbers in the regular season (rice, carter, moss, brown, harrison) or do something special in the playoffs (rice, irvin, swan) and have some championships to back it up (rice, swan irvin)

 

reed had great numbers at the time but every year he falls further down the list of catches, yards and td's

[tennesseeboy]

i think colin cowherd says it best...if u can sum up why a player is a hall of famer in one sentence then he belongs there. i am not so sure u can do that with andre reed. he was one of the premier receivers of his time but:

 

A: he scored 10 td's or more just once (where as the jerry rices, chris carters, randy moss, marvin harrisons, etc.. have

B: he never had a game that sticks out to anyone else besides bills fans

C: never came up big in the super bowls

D: never won a super bowl

E: with each passing year he falls further down the the major receiving categories

I agree with you with ONE exception, the comeback game against Houston was Andre Reed and that will live on in football history. His performance in the Superbowls in general and his penchant for really stupid penalties in critical games will probably doom him. I hope I'm wrong though as I'd like to see any buffalo bill in the hall of fame....maybe not OJ, though.

[McD]

basically what i am trying to say is to be a hall of famer you should have exceptional numbers in the regular season (rice, carter, moss, brown, harrison) or do something special in the playoffs (rice, irvin, swan) and have some championships to back it up (rice, swan irvin)

 

reed had great numbers at the time but every year he falls further down the list of catches, yards and td's

 

Understood, now tell me who were the preiminent WR's during their heyday? Rice, Reed, Carter..? These guys stood out as the best of the best consistently.

 

Of course just about every player will fall down a list they are on as other players play the game...that's a fact of the game. Does that mean we should take guys out of the Hall because they've been surpassed? Hell no...their stats during their Era's play a huge part in that process. It sucks that WR's have to wait such a long time as there is so many game-changing guys out there. I do believe that Reed will get in, but it might have to be during a year that there isn't another good candidate. It sucks we have to play the political game on this. If they're deserving, they should get in without worrying about how many other WR's are up that year.

 

Can you imagine the decision of the Hall if Kelly, Elway and Marino all retired the same year?!?!?!?!

[loyal2dagame]

Can you imagine the decision of the Hall if Kelly, Elway and Marino all retired the same year?!?!?!?!

 

if all three of those guys were up at the same time, 1 of 2 things would have happened.

 

1. the voters put in the three best qb's all drafted at the same time to have their careers come full circle.

 

2. kelly is left out as elway was a great player, a media darling, and won 2 bowls, and marino's stats speak for him on their own merits.

[McD]

Just for fun..here are some of the "greats" Reed has played with at QB for the Bills. I didn't include his year in Washington. The bolded players started at QB at some point that year (I didn't highlight them again if they satered again in later years), the others played at least a down. Damn, there are some real winners on that list, lol!

 

1985: Vince Ferragamo (9), Bruce Mathison (7), Frank Reich

1986: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich

1987#: Jim Kelly (12), Dan Manucci (1), Brian McClure (1), Willie Totten (1), Mark Miller

1988: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich

1989: Jim Kelly (13) Frank Reich (3)

1990: Jim Kelly (14), Frank Reich (2), Gale Gilbert

1991: Jim Kelly (15) Frank Reich (1)

1992: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich

1993: Jim Kelly*, Frank Reich, Gale Gilbert

1994: Jim Kelly (14) Frank Reich (2)

1995: Jim Kelly (15), Todd Collins (1) Alex Van Pelt

1996: Jim Kelly (13), Todd Collins (3) Alex Van Pelt

1997: Todd Collins (13) Alex Van Pelt (3) Billy Jo Hobert

1998: Doug Flutie (10), Rob Johnson (6), Alex Van Pelt

1999: Doug Flutie (15), Rob Johnson (1), Alex Van Pelt

[Lv-Bills]

basically what i am trying to say is to be a hall of famer you should have exceptional numbers in the regular season (rice, carter, moss, brown, harrison) or do something special in the playoffs (rice, irvin, swan) and have some championships to back it up (rice, swan irvin)

 

reed had great numbers at the time but every year he falls further down the list of catches, yards and td's

Gee, what a genius here. Do you think he had great numbers at the time? Reed was a the 2nd best WR of all time when he retired, WHICH IS THE ERA HE SHOULD BE COMPARED AGAINST.

 

Again, your arguments are weak for Reed vs. Carter. Carter enjoyed very good QB play during his career, despite you inferring that his QB's were bad. So, then you switched from that argument to "Carter is 2nd all time right now" case closed crap. Again lame, because Reed was second when he retired. But I guess that doesn't count. As pretty soon, Carter will slide down the ladder.

 

Carter also hit the pass happy era of the NFL more than Reed. So much so that I give you this stat......over their careers, minus each one's last year in which they were with Miami and Denver........this is Carters advantage, numbers wise over Reed.......

 

During Carters career, his teams threw the ball 8,215 times. The Bills threw the ball 7,462 in Reeds games. A difference of amount 750 balls or so.

 

Think Carter should have more catches and TD'S? I certainly do. Think that makes their stats much more alike? I KNOW it does. Give Andre the extra 750 balls up in the air, and see how things come out. His postseason numbers are ALREADY better, now let's add the extra 750 passes.

[Stenbar]

i think colin cowherd says it best...if u can sum up why a player is a hall of famer in one sentence then he belongs there. i am not so sure u can do that with andre reed. he was one of the premier receivers of his time but:

 

A: he scored 10 td's or more just once (where as the jerry rices, chris carters, randy moss, marvin harrisons, etc.. have

B: he never had a game that sticks out to anyone else besides bills fans

C: never came up big in the super bowls

D: never won a super bowl

E: with each passing year he falls further down the the major receiving categories

I just dont think he is gonna get in..I dont really think he deserves it..I can even recall the play that changed my opinion on him..SuperBowl 26 right before the half..He got interfered with he bitched then proceeded to take his helmet off his head like a little baby 15yrd unsportsmanlike penalty out of fieldgoal range..The game was still in the balance and the fieldgoal wouldve given them some life going into the half but Jerkboy took them out of it..JUst kinda showed me that he was a little to selfish for my liking..A point reinforced towards the end of his career ...He was a very good player but he isnt hall of fame worthy imo..

[McD]

Gee, what a genius here. Do you think he had great numbers at the time? Reed was a the 2nd best WR of all time when he retired, WHICH IS THE ERA HE SHOULD BE COMPARED AGAINST.

 

Again, your arguments are weak for Reed vs. Carter. Carter enjoyed very good QB play during his career, despite you inferring that his QB's were bad. So, then you switched from that argument to "Carter is 2nd all time right now" case closed crap. Again lame, because Reed was second when he retired. But I guess that doesn't count. As pretty soon, Carter will slide down the ladder.

 

Carter also hit the pass happy era of the NFL more than Reed. So much so that I give you this stat......over their careers, minus each one's last year in which they were with Miami and Denver........this is Carters advantage, numbers wise over Reed.......

 

During Carters career, his teams threw the ball 8,215 times. The Bills threw the ball 7,462 in Reeds games. A difference of amount 750 balls or so.

 

Think Carter should have more catches and TD'S? I certainly do. Think that makes their stats much more alike? I KNOW it does. Give Andre the extra 750 balls up in the air, and see how things come out. His postseason numbers are ALREADY better, now let's add the extra 750 passes.

 

Good points, but to be fair Reed would not have caught all of those balls. Let's take Kelly's lifetime comp% (60%) to that total and we get approx 450 balls...now lets assume Reed has 25% thrown his way, and he catches 90% of those. That equates top approx 100 more receptions for Reed in the same "style" offense. Now he would have more receptions than Carter. Where the bigger discrepancy is in TD's as even Reed would maybe pick up and additional 10 TD's to his totals using his (approx) 1 TD per reception rate. That give him close to 100 TD's but still short of Carters 130 (but again, carter got more deep balls tossed his way too). Of course Reed would pick up an additional 1,390 yds too, giving him 14,588 and ahead giving him the nod over Carter...oh and let's not forget Reed's 500 rushing yds to Cater's 41 yds

 

Honestly though...this is like asking which is better.. Pizza or Wings? It's not even fun to debate because they're both awesome! Lol.

[McD]

I just dont think he is gonna get in..I dont really think he deserves it..I can even recall the play that changed my opinion on him..SuperBowl 26 right before the half..He got interfered with he bitched then proceeded to take his helmet off his head like a little baby 15yrd unsportsmanlike penalty out of fieldgoal range..The game was still in the balance and the fieldgoal wouldve given them some life going into the half but Jerkboy took them out of it..JUst kinda showed me that he was a little to selfish for my liking..A point reinforced towards the end of his career ...He was a very good player but he isnt hall of fame worthy imo..

 

I can't TOTALLY disagree, but have you ever played sports? And if you did, did you ever play with that much heart and passion? I agree dumb penalty, but he was clearly beyond himself...the guy was getting molested on EVERY play and nothing was being called. It was out of sheer frustration that he acted the way he did.

 

I still play ball with as much passion...people still complain and they're not anywhere near the competitive level or pressure that Reed was on then. Sad you judge a man's entire career on a single play, but that's yours to deal with.

[JPDontletthedoorhityourars]

I can't TOTALLY disagree, but have you ever played sports? And if you did, did you ever play with that much heart and passion? I agree dumb penalty, but he was clearly beyond himself...the guy was getting molested on EVERY play and nothing was being called. It was out of sheer frustration that he acted the way he did.

 

I still play ball with as much passion...people still complain and they're not anywhere near the competitive level or pressure that Reed was on then. Sad you judge a man's entire career on a single play, but that's yours to deal with.

 

 

There is some truth to what the poster said about his dumb penalty. That game was completely officiated against us and Andre was frustrated. But, he ALSO did that same very thing in the Miami playoff game (w/Flutie) as well--another game completely officiated against us.

 

But to call him a 'very good' player is also doing him injustice.

 

My point is if he doesn't get in it will because of his surly personality not because of his ability.

[McD]

There is some truth to what the poster said about his dumb penalty. That game was completely officiated against us and Andre was frustrated. But, he ALSO did that same very thing in the Miami playoff game (w/Flutie) as well--another game completely officiated against us.

 

But to call him a 'very good' player is also doing him injustice.

 

My point is if he doesn't get in it will because of his surly personality not because of his ability.

 

There have been a lot of non media darlings with surly personalities to get inducted...it should be on their overall on the field performance, not a populartity contest. Unfortunately the way the selection process goes IT IS a populartity contest.

 

I know it's not the same sport, but look at a guy like Ty Cobb...there might not have been a more surly bastard to ever play the game, but he was part of the innagural HOF class. I want a guy to be fired up, I want a guy to stand up for what's right...it's just too bad they have guys with little striped shirts and little yellow flags that dictate the play AND the sportsmanship, even if their sh------- NON-calls are what's creating the attitude.

[C.Biscuit97]

i think colin cowherd says it best...if u can sum up why a player is a hall of famer in one sentence then he belongs there. i am not so sure u can do that with andre reed. he was one of the premier receivers of his time but:

 

A: he scored 10 td's or more just once (where as the jerry rices, chris carters, randy moss, marvin harrisons, etc.. have

B: he never had a game that sticks out to anyone else besides bills fans

C: never came up big in the super bowls

D: never won a super bowl

E: with each passing year he falls further down the the major receiving categories

 

First of all, Cowherd is an idiot. i can't stand his whiny voice. He just talks out of his rear most of the time and fellates the big market teams.

 

A) He played on one of the most offenses in NFL history and shared the glory. Thurman, Lofton, Beebe, Big Pete, and hell even Kenny Davis. The Bills also won games early and he didn't get to pad his stats like Largent and Tim Brown.

 

B) I guess you forgot the comeback game where he scored 3 tds with our backup QB. Or his multiple tds in 2 other playoff games.

 

C) He is 2nd in Super Bowl catches. He alos had 154 yards in a another. I think it more of a product of the Bills sucking as a whole in SBs (especially Jimbo) than on Reed. Receiver is a dependent position. Does Cris Carter not get in because he never played in a Super Bowl?

 

d) Silly. There are plenty of guys in theHOF that never won a Super Bowl.

 

e) Comparing stats against eras is dumb. Every QB from the 80s and 90s will pale in comparison to players now. It is a different league. Defensive backs can't even touch receivers without getting a penalty. Jon Kitna has put up 2 4,000 yard seasons. Kelly never put up one. So is Kitna better than Kelly? Or is Brees better than Montana? Silly.

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

If Andre Tippett can make it in the HOF, then Andre Reed certainly can.

[McD]

If Andre Tippett can make it in the HOF, then Andre Reed certainly can.

 

Sooo true!!

[Buftex]

i think colin cowherd says it best...if u can sum up why a player is a hall of famer in one sentence then he belongs there. i am not so sure u can do that with andre reed. he was one of the premier receivers of his time but:

 

A: he scored 10 td's or more just once (where as the jerry rices, chris carters, randy moss, marvin harrisons, etc.. have

B: he never had a game that sticks out to anyone else besides bills fans

C: never came up big in the super bowls

D: never won a super bowl

E: with each passing year he falls further down the the major receiving categories

 

You lost me at "colin cowherd says it best..."

[dave mcbride]

If Andre Tippett can make it in the HOF, then Andre Reed certainly can.

?? Tippett was an absolutely dominating player. I'll restate what I hinted at earlier. Reed was a very good player, but he was the fourth best player on that offense.

[Solomon Grundy]

what??? their success was based on andre reed??? i beg to differ...i believe it was based more on kelly being able to run the offense and thurman thomas. andre reed has even admitted that he was not the first, not the second but the 3rd option on the team. was jerry rice montana or youngs 3rd option? was chris carter the 3rd option? i think not

Cris Carter had other receiving threats on his team like Anthony Carter, Jake Reed, and Randy Moss during his tenure that had a comparable amount of receptions for the Vikings. After Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas had the most receptions on the team. After Jerry Rice, Andre Reed was the most feared wideout in the NFL in the late 80's early 90's. As far as a standout game for Andre, how soon do we forget "the greatest comeback in NFL history." The Bills overcame the biggest deficit in NFL history without two of their HOF players, Jim Kelly and Thurman Thomas. I don't recall defensive coordinators going into a game against the Vikings saying that they have to stop Cris Carter. Buddy Ryan said it best when he said "all he does is catch touchdowns." Andre Reed was clearly a more dominant WR than Cris Carter and if he gets in before Andre it would be a miscarriage of justice.

[Buftex]

?? Tippett was an absolutely dominating player. I'll restate what I hinted at earlier. Reed was a very good player, but he was the fourth best player on that offense.

 

 

I assume you are referring to Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas and Kent Hull? While I might agree (all three were tremendous players) I am kind of surprised, routinely, about how little appreciation Andre Reed gets from Bills fans. Go back and watch some of those classic era games. Reed was absolutely dominating, and was rarely shut down by any defense. You could make the argument that James Lofton might not have gotten in the HOF, if it weren't for Reed. You would think, particularly after what we witnessed the last 10 years or so at the WR position in Buffalo, that Bills fans (especially you Dave McBride) would appreciate what a great player he really was. If he had been a first round pick out of Notre Dame, or USC, you can bet, the clamoring for him to go the HOF would be much greater. As the Gughan article states so well, he was the second most dominating WR in the leage for about 4 years, and pretty damn good and productive for another 7 or 8 years on top of that. He was an elite receiver in his time. Unfortunately, it seems like too many only remember him for his hissy fitting toward the end of his career...he was much more than that. I think Reed was every bit as integral to that offense as the other stars were.