Thurman#1 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Good Point on player weights, but I already knew that looking over some rosters. The Bills and fans want to see a pass rush terror on the field opposite Schobel,they won't find one from this draft,at least not for 09 season. Like I stated eariler....I suppose the Bills could draft one of the DE/OLB listed above and develop them,hows that working for the Jets and Vernon Gholston 6'3'' 264 ? Wasn't Gholston supposed to be a great pass rusher,what happened? Gholston was drafted by the New York Jets sixth overall in the 2008 NFL Draft. Gholston was expected to play outside linebacker in the Jets' 3-4 defense with the Jets citing his speed, strength and “long limbs,” believing they had found the perfect outside pass rusher for their defense. After struggling to adjust to coach Eric Mangini's 3-4 defensive scheme, 6'4'' 258 when drafted Anyway, any young player drafted could add 10-15lbs of muscle and develop into a really good DE. I just don't see any of these DE's being a high priority at the weights listed. With someone posting they see Maybin in the 230-240 range that would really be a reach for an every down lineman.You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project? Gholston was a first-year player, switching positions. He is going to be a terror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 So your suggesting that the Bills draft a 250 lb player and start him as DE this next season,correct? They might contribute alright,on special teams perhaps.He is supposed to magically gain 15-20 lbs of muscle to preform properly by next fall? The Bills suck at stopping the run as it is and you want to put a 250 lb DE on the line,glad you coach nothing. What I'm stating is that any of those 4 DE's listed above will most likely be drafted to play OLB and if not, it may take awhile before they are ready to play DE in the NFL,can the bills afford to wait a year or two for a player to develop? I said: With someone posting they see Maybin in the 230-240 range that would really be a reach for an every down lineman.You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project? Nobody mentioned anything about you writing about Maybin Guys put on weight at this time every single year. Lots of them. Freeney played in college at 248 - 252. Showed up at the combine at 268 of rock-hard muscle. This happens constantly. They drop out of school, stop eating school food and lifting in collegiate weight rooms and get professionals to help them put on weight on the promise of paying when the first pro paycheck comes in. This is more common than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Gholston didn't make the transition from DE to OLB very well but he was the 6th player taken in the 08 draft. I believe the Jets moved him to DE for time and that didn't work either. Right now the guy is listed as second string behind Bryan Thomas. I only mentioned Gholston because I dislike these undersized DE's and would rather see the Bills get a DE as a FA and not the draft. Dunno about the rest of you fans but I'm fed up with the Bills inability to stop the run,they were 14th overall,13th against the pass and 22 against the run. This season they were better with Marcus Stroud and could get even better with a player like Tyson Jackson,6' 4 1/2 " and 295 lbs, a monster at stopping the run. The old adage,"run and stop the run",force them into passing situations and then have the defense do some actual blitzing! With a healthy Schobel on one side and Jackson on the other the defense would very good at both rushing the passer and stopping the run. Our weakness against the run is not a result of bad left DEs. For all the crap Kelsay and Denney get on these boards, they stop the run just fine. We can keep them if we want to stop the run. The problem is that we don't have a pass rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 No,he may ultimately be a great DE someday. I just dislike undersized DE's,I'm fed up with the Bills bad rush defense and would rather see the Bills get a FA DE like Peppers rather then draft some undersized kid that has to gain weight/ muscle to get better. The Bills already have a super lightweight DE in Schobel,do you honestly think another 250 lb, hands down on the line DE will help the Bills run defense? If he can rush the passer, yes, greatly. How? By sacking and pressuring the QB, you put the defense in longer-yardage situations and force them to pass instead of run. Now if the guy is solid against the run as Kelsay and Denney are, then your defense has been helped against the run. But run defense is not really where we are weak. The Tampa Two defense requires a nasty pass rush from the offensive line. We simply cannot achieve that with the personnel we now have. That's why you see so many threads on here to junk the Tampa Two. It isn't working well right now. Because of our lack of a pass rush from the o-line. We desperately need to crank up the rush with a DE on the other side from Schobel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Super lightweight? James Harrison at 242 (with 16 sacks in the regular season), going to the Super Bowl would disagree. You just lost this argument, bud. Harrison's an LB, dude. But the Steelers and Harrison are a closing argument in the "draft the most talented guy and change the system around him" argument. The Steelers are great year after year on D because they have a defensive system and they draft guys who fit that system. And it works like crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thank goodness for Pittsburgh Steelers fans that Mike Tomlin didn't buy your rot and bring his Tampa-2 system to Pittsburgh and kick Dick LeBeau to the curb. No, he didn't say that all head coaches will change the defense. He did say that between the head coach and the coordinator, they have a system which they can best teach. In Pittsburgh, it is the LeBeau system, which is an argument AGAINST the "change the system for the players" approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PushthePile Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Harrison's an LB, dude. But the Steelers and Harrison are a closing argument in the "draft the most talented guy and change the system around him" argument. The Steelers are great year after year on D because they have a defensive system and they draft guys who fit that system. And it works like crazy. It works because the players who fit are much easier to find. The steelers have Harrison, Woodley, Timmons, Farrior, and Foote. All fit the system and all can jump in and do the job. If they had to replace one in this draft, I'm certain they could. That's why you saw Porter and Adalius Thomas hit the market. We lose one declining DE and fall apart! Look at what happened when KC traded Allen. They set an NFL record of 10 SACKS! You can't stock a team with stud DEs very easily and if you do good luck keeping them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thank goodness for Pittsburgh Steelers fans that Mike Tomlin didn't buy your rot and bring his Tampa-2 system to Pittsburgh and kick Dick LeBeau to the curb. I was talking about coordinators. You can't teach a system you don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 No, he didn't say that all head coaches will change the defense. He did say that between the head coach and the coordinator, they have a system which they can best teach. In Pittsburgh, it is the LeBeau system, which is an argument AGAINST the "change the system for the players" approach. LeBeau helped coach Jerry Grey and the 46 system when he was here in Buffalo, yet by implication we're supposed to buy that "LeBeau doesn't know" the 46 defense because he has had more success coaching the 3-4? In the post I quoted the word "coordinator" is used ZERO times, so this "it's not the head coach, it's the head coach and coordinator" is nothing but rapid backpedaling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan74 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Don't forget about Ayers from Tennessse. He should be there in the second rd if the Bills wanted BPA in the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Yes, the Bills should draft a 250 lb DE to play DE. Did you miss the premise of my first post where players of a wide range of weights can succeed as pass rushers? The Bills need help in the pass rushing department moreso than the run stopping. We got 0 pass rush production from our DEs Hence the reason to draft a pass rushing DE. And stop changing your argument every time you're caught with your pants down. First it was that "DEs under 280 can't rush the passer." Then it was, "Vernon Gholston sucks." Now your argument has changed to, "we need a run stopping DE." If you want to focus on run stopping, draft a friggin DT. Your development argument is asinine. Any player you draft (short of adrian peterson) is not going to tear it up from day 1. All players take some time to develop. Meanwhile, there's no where it says that a 250 lb DE cannot succeed and make a much needed impact on a pass rush. As for your laughably retarded argument about DE/OLBs, i dont give a rats ass where a player is "projected" to go. Stop being a mouth breather and assuming that because some 3-4 teams might draft them and move them to OLB means that they can't play DE. Those guys mentioned have had large amounts of success playing the DE in college. They know the position. Brown has showcased a wide variety of skills over his past 2.5 seasons at FSU. Either one would instantly improve our pass rush. Please link to me where and why Brown or Orakpo will NOT have any success as a DE at the NFL level. And try to do it without blubbering like a moron, "but...but...but...vernon gholston sucks!" btw - freeney was about 250 when he was drafted. Who was that Bald guy in Miami that palyed DE? I don' t think he carried a lot of weight. I saw him on Dancing with the stars. He was pretty good as pressuring the passer if I remember. No way he was over 260. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Thank goodness for Pittsburgh Steelers fans that Mike Tomlin didn't buy your rot and bring his Tampa-2 system to Pittsburgh and kick Dick LeBeau to the curb. You're kidding, right? The Steelers had just won the SB thanks to their defense, and you think that Tomlin had any control over it or LeBeau? He was probably told "Dick LeBeau and the 3-4 stays and if you don't like it, this interview is over." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Who was that Bald guy in Miami that palyed DE? I don' t think he carried a lot of weight. I saw him on Dancing with the stars. He was pretty good as pressuring the passer if I remember. No way he was over 260. You are correct. Jason Taylor goes 244, which is the same weight as Schobel. I dont recommend stocking your team entirely with 240 lb DEs, but its a myth that only "big" DEs can be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 You're kidding, right? The Steelers had just won the SB thanks to their defense, and you think that Tomlin had any control over it or LeBeau? He was probably told "Dick LeBeau and the 3-4 stays and if you don't like it, this interview is over." Well, it seems like a no-brainer does it not? I mean Tomlin is a Tampa-2 defensive guru trained by Tony Dungy himself and he was replacing Cowher wo was a 3-4 defensive coach. Yet, he didn't come in and "blow it up" in Pittsburgh. He's putting his mark on the team, but he didn't cut every veteran on the roster and bring in new offensive and defensive systems, did he? And the results, as you mention, speak for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Well, it seems like a no-brainer does it not? I mean Tomlin is a Tampa-2 defensive guru trained by Tony Dungy himself and he was replacing Cowher wo was a 3-4 defensive coach. Yet, he didn't come in and "blow it up" in Pittsburgh. He's putting his mark on the team, but he didn't cut every veteran on the roster and bring in new offensive and defensive systems, did he? And the results, as you mention, speak for themselves. Why would he cut players and/or fire coaches and/or change the scheme of a great, SB-winning defense? The answer is, he wouldn't, and if he wanted to, was probably told that he couldn't or he wouldn't get the job/would be fired. I no more give him credit for keeping LeBeau and the 3-4 than I give Jauron credit for keeping Bobby April. It was a no-brainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Harrison's an LB, dude. But the Steelers and Harrison are a closing argument in the "draft the most talented guy and change the system around him" argument. The Steelers are great year after year on D because they have a defensive system and they draft guys who fit that system. And it works like crazy. They also have a certain DC that we actually had HERE and allowed to get away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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