2009 Draft and DE's

[Solomon Grundy]

I realize this may be a really bizarre concept to a few, but why not draft the very best talent and mold the systems around what they do best? Then you have great players playing in systems they excel in instead of the alternative of settling for overachiever and average talent that work hard at trying to make a go of it in their coach's favorite system.

Isn't that how the KGun was derived?

[Solomon Grundy]

Good Point on player weights, but I already knew that looking over some rosters.

 

The Bills and fans want to see a pass rush terror on the field opposite Schobel,they won't find one from this draft,at least not for 09 season.

 

Like I stated eariler....I suppose the Bills could draft one of the DE/OLB listed above and develop them,hows that working for the Jets and Vernon Gholston 6'3'' 264 ? Wasn't Gholston supposed to be a great pass rusher,what happened?

You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project?[/b]

First of all, going into the combine many questioned Gholston's motor and work ethic. Secondly, Gholston didn't display a plethora of pass rush moves. And yes, as a 250lb. pass rushing DE, I want the Bills to target Everette Brown.

[PushthePile]

First of all, going into the combine many questioned Gholston's motor and work ethic. Secondly, Gholston didn't display a plethora of pass rush moves. And yes, as a 250lb. pass rushing DE, I want the Bills to target Everette Brown.

Great point! Gholston was a single dimensional collegiate player and it showed. Everette Brown is a player who showed success with whole multitude of moves and athleticism. I think he is the future star of the DE class.

[thewildrabbit]

A DE that comes into the NFL weighing 250+ will have no problem moving into the 260 range with a year's worth of strength and conditioning at the NFL level. Not to mention that they could contribute right off the bat even weighing in the 250s. And a "project" is someone who is raw, which has nothing to do with weight. All of these DEs have proven themselves at the collegiate level. They aren't "projects." And where the hell did i ever mention maybin?

 

Also, please explain how one player who attempted to play OLB at the NFL level and didn't see the field means we shouldn't draft a guy to play DE, just because he's a similar size. The Jets moved Gholston to OLB. The Bills would be drafting one of these guys to play DE. Things that are different aren't the same. Try making some sense before running your mouth.

So your suggesting that the Bills draft a 250 lb player and start him as DE this next season,correct? They might contribute alright,on special teams perhaps.

He is supposed to magically gain 15-20 lbs of muscle to preform properly by next fall? The Bills suck at stopping the run as it is and you want to put a 250 lb DE on the line,glad you coach nothing.

 

What I'm stating is that any of those 4 DE's listed above will most likely be drafted to play OLB and if not, it may take awhile before they are ready to play DE in the NFL,can the bills afford to wait a year or two for a player to develop?

 

 

 

I said: With someone posting they see Maybin in the 230-240 range that would really be a reach for an every down lineman.You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project?

Nobody mentioned anything about you writing about Maybin

Maybin needs to add bulk to excell at the next level. I hope everyone realizes that heights and weights are subjective until the combime. Remember when Deshawn Jackson was 6'1? when James Hardy was 6'7"? I have read plenty of articles that say Maybin is closer to 230-240 range. However, if DHB is as advertised, 6'3", 205(seen alot of reads that confirm) we should target him and get an LB later on. DHB could be the playmaker we need to open this offense up.

[Ramius]

So your suggesting that the Bills draft a 250 lb player and start him as DE this next season,correct? They might contribute alright,on special teams perhaps.

He is supposed to magically gain 15-20 lbs of muscle to preform properly by next fall? The Bills suck at stopping the run as it is and you want to put a 250 lb DE on the line,glad you coach nothing.

 

What I'm stating is that any of those 4 DE's listed above will most likely be drafted to play OLB and if not, it may take awhile before they are ready to play DE in the NFL,can the bills afford to wait a year or two for a player to develop?

 

Yes, the Bills should draft a 250 lb DE to play DE. Did you miss the premise of my first post where players of a wide range of weights can succeed as pass rushers? The Bills need help in the pass rushing department moreso than the run stopping. We got 0 pass rush production from our DEs Hence the reason to draft a pass rushing DE. And stop changing your argument every time you're caught with your pants down. First it was that "DEs under 280 can't rush the passer." Then it was, "Vernon Gholston sucks." Now your argument has changed to, "we need a run stopping DE." If you want to focus on run stopping, draft a friggin DT.

 

Your development argument is asinine. Any player you draft (short of adrian peterson) is not going to tear it up from day 1. All players take some time to develop. Meanwhile, there's no where it says that a 250 lb DE cannot succeed and make a much needed impact on a pass rush. As for your laughably retarded argument about DE/OLBs, i dont give a rats ass where a player is "projected" to go. Stop being a mouth breather and assuming that because some 3-4 teams might draft them and move them to OLB means that they can't play DE. Those guys mentioned have had large amounts of success playing the DE in college. They know the position. Brown has showcased a wide variety of skills over his past 2.5 seasons at FSU. Either one would instantly improve our pass rush.

 

Please link to me where and why Brown or Orakpo will NOT have any success as a DE at the NFL level. And try to do it without blubbering like a moron, "but...but...but...vernon gholston sucks!" btw - freeney was about 250 when he was drafted.

[stuckincincy]

Yes, the Bills should draft a 250 lb DE to play DE. Did you miss the premise of my first post where players of a wide range of weights can succeed as pass rushers? The Bills need help in the pass rushing department moreso than the run stopping. We got 0 pass rush production from our DEs Hence the reason to draft a pass rushing DE. And stop changing your argument every time you're caught with your pants down. First it was that "DEs under 280 can't rush the passer." Then it was, "Vernon Gholston sucks." Now your argument has changed to, "we need a run stopping DE." If you want to focus on run stopping, draft a friggin DT.

 

Your development argument is asinine. Any player you draft (short of adrian peterson) is not going to tear it up from day 1. All players take some time to develop. Meanwhile, there's no where it says that a 250 lb DE cannot succeed and make a much needed impact on a pass rush. As for your laughably retarded argument about DE/OLBs, i dont give a rats ass where a player is "projected" to go. Stop being a mouth breather and assuming that because some 3-4 teams might draft them and move them to OLB means that they can't play DE. Those guys mentioned have had large amounts of success playing the DE in college. They know the position. Brown has showcased a wide variety of skills over his past 2.5 seasons at FSU. Either one would instantly improve our pass rush.

 

Please link to me where and why Brown or Orakpo will NOT have any success as a DE at the NFL level. And try to do it without blubbering like a moron, "but...but...but...vernon gholston sucks!" btw - freeney was about 250 when he was drafted.

 

..."Livin' on reds, vitamin c, and cocaine, All a friend can say is ain't it a shame? Truckin', up to Buffalo. Been thinkin', you got to mellow slow."...

 

[thewildrabbit]

Gholston didn't make the transition from DE to OLB very well but he was the 6th player taken in the 08 draft. I believe the Jets moved him to DE for time and that didn't work either. Right now the guy is listed as second string behind Bryan Thomas.

 

I only mentioned Gholston because I dislike these undersized DE's and would rather see the Bills get a DE as a FA and not the draft.

 

Dunno about the rest of you fans but I'm fed up with the Bills inability to stop the run,they were 14th overall,13th against the pass and 22 against the run. This season they were better with Marcus Stroud and could get even better with a player like Tyson Jackson,6' 4 1/2 " and 295 lbs, a monster at stopping the run.

 

The old adage,"run and stop the run",force them into passing situations and then have the defense do some actual blitzing!

 

With a healthy Schobel on one side and Jackson on the other the defense would very good at both rushing the passer and stopping the run.

[TheLynchTrain]

So your suggesting that the Bills draft a 250 lb player and start him as DE this next season,correct? They might contribute alright,on special teams perhaps.

He is supposed to magically gain 15-20 lbs of muscle to preform properly by next fall? The Bills suck at stopping the run as it is and you want to put a 250 lb DE on the line,glad you coach nothing.

 

What I'm stating is that any of those 4 DE's listed above will most likely be drafted to play OLB and if not, it may take awhile before they are ready to play DE in the NFL,can the bills afford to wait a year or two for a player to develop?

 

 

 

I said: With someone posting they see Maybin in the 230-240 range that would really be a reach for an every down lineman.You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project?

Nobody mentioned anything about you writing about Maybin

 

Um, last time I checked Schobel has been playing the last 3-4 years between 238 and 243. And Jason Taylor's been playing that weight for quite some time. Personally, I think him being undersized has contributed to his injuries in the past. But even before that, Schobel was never any bigger than 255-260, and early in his career he was a damn good sack specialist (obviously some on here will disagree, say his sacks were in bunches, ect).

 

But there are plenty of DE that are considered "undersized" that are beasts. I think that label is coming off now because of the success of the speedy smaller guys. Remember Dwight Freeney being called a reach and undersized? He was 265 pounds!

[thewildrabbit]

Yes, the Bills should draft a 250 lb DE to play DE. Did you miss the premise of my first post where players of a wide range of weights can succeed as pass rushers? The Bills need help in the pass rushing department moreso than the run stopping. We got 0 pass rush production from our DEs Hence the reason to draft a pass rushing DE. And stop changing your argument every time you're caught with your pants down. First it was that "DEs under 280 can't rush the passer." Then it was, "Vernon Gholston sucks." Now your argument has changed to, "we need a run stopping DE." If you want to focus on run stopping, draft a friggin DT.

 

Your development argument is asinine. Any player you draft (short of adrian peterson) is not going to tear it up from day 1. All players take some time to develop. Meanwhile, there's no where it says that a 250 lb DE cannot succeed and make a much needed impact on a pass rush. As for your laughably retarded argument about DE/OLBs, i dont give a rats ass where a player is "projected" to go. Stop being a mouth breather and assuming that because some 3-4 teams might draft them and move them to OLB means that they can't play DE. Those guys mentioned have had large amounts of success playing the DE in college. They know the position. Brown has showcased a wide variety of skills over his past 2.5 seasons at FSU. Either one would instantly improve our pass rush.

 

Please link to me where and why Brown or Orakpo will NOT have any success as a DE at the NFL level. And try to do it without blubbering like a moron, "but...but...but...vernon gholston sucks!" btw - freeney was about 250 when he was drafted.

You believe one thing and I believe another,you don't see me calling you names like "dense moron" simply because you can't see the fact that if the Bills start a 250 lb DE this season, teams will run right over him

[dickie do-right]

With a healthy Schobel on one side and Jackson on the other the defense would very good at both rushing the passer and stopping the run.

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I'm with you brother. Jackson is like getting both a pass rusher and another DT all in one frame. Not worth the 11th pick, but if we trade down ?

 

I just love this stuff !!!

[JinWPB]

I've seen about enough of Bill's def. ends taking their big looping speed rushes, ending up two steps late, or taking themselves out of the play completely.

We should have at least one big man like Jackson who can push the tackle right back in the QB's face and shut down the run.

and please, if I see our DE'nds 20 yards down field trying to cover a back or TE again..........shish .

Or if they are really looking for help ....Julius P.

[Ramius]

You believe one thing and I believe another,you don't see me calling you names like "dense moron" simply because you can't see the fact that if the Bills start a 250 lb DE this season, teams will run right over him

 

like all the other 250-265 lb DEs get "run over" in the league? Like Schobel gets "run over."

 

Only a mouth breather would think that being "run over" at DE has more to do with a 20 lb weight differential and less to do with technique and ability. If the DE can beat his tackle, the a 220 lb RB isn't going to be running over any DE.

 

Not to mention the basis of the Bills drafting a DE at 11 is because we need an improved pass rush.

[thewildrabbit]

With a healthy Schobel on one side and Jackson on the other the defense would very good at both rushing the passer and stopping the run.

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I'm with you brother. Jackson is like getting both a pass rusher and another DT all in one frame. Not worth the 11th pick, but if we trade down ?

 

I just love this stuff !!!

thanks,

 

I'm glad someone besides the nose breather agrees with me

[John from Riverside]

On a personal note it is making my son really happy to see the weights of the NFL defensive ends going down down down

 

He will be playing at DE his senior year of high school at about 220 pounds.........with the NFL standards changing the college standard is changing as well.

 

He gets tired of people telling him to switch back to linebacker because of his weight and because he is fast.

[thewildrabbit]

I've seen about enough of Bill's def. ends taking their big looping speed rushes, ending up two steps late, or taking themselves out of the play completely.

We should have at least one big man like Jackson who can push the tackle right back in the QB's face and shut down the run.

and please, if I see our DE'nds 20 yards down field trying to cover a back or TE again..........shish .

Or if they are really looking for help ....Julius P.

agree

 

 

I'm just so sick of watching the Patriots pound the ball for 100+ yards every time they play the Bills,and last time they did it with a 4th string RB

[ans4e64]

Good Point on player weights, but I already knew that looking over some rosters.

 

The Bills and fans want to see a pass rush terror on the field opposite Schobel,they won't find one from this draft,at least not for 09 season.

 

Like I stated eariler....I suppose the Bills could draft one of the DE/OLB listed above and develop them,hows that working for the Jets and Vernon Gholston 6'3'' 264 ? Wasn't Gholston supposed to be a great pass rusher,what happened?

Gholston was drafted by the New York Jets sixth overall in the 2008 NFL Draft. Gholston was expected to play outside linebacker in the Jets' 3-4 defense with the Jets citing his speed, strength and “long limbs,” believing they had found the perfect outside pass rusher for their defense.

After struggling to adjust to coach Eric Mangini's 3-4 defensive scheme, 6'4'' 258 when drafted

Anyway, any young player drafted could add 10-15lbs of muscle and develop into a really good DE. I just don't see any of these DE's being a high priority at the weights listed.

With someone posting they see Maybin in the 230-240 range that would really be a reach for an every down lineman.You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project?

 

Are you really trying to say that because one player couldn't make the transition from the 4-3 to the 3-4 in the NFL, that Brown or Orakpo can't go from their 4-3 to our 4-3? Wow.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Vernon Gholston had bust tattooed on his forehead going into the draft. Many posters here were when the Jets took him. He was a Mike Mamula combine superstar. That he didn't pan out so far, yawn, is hardly anything to write home about.

 

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1017876

[ans4e64]

I realize this may be a really bizarre concept to a few, but why not draft the very best talent and mold the systems around what they do best? Then you have great players playing in systems they excel in instead of the alternative of settling for overachiever and average talent that work hard at trying to make a go of it in their coach's favorite system.

 

Because as a coach, you have what's called a "philosophy." It is a specific scheme that you have studied and mastered over the years, to the point where you know every tiny aspect of what every position is supposed to do and where they are supposed to be in all situations, and feel comfortable teaching that system and executing it. Every coach has a philosophy, and as an owner, that is what you hire. For example, Rex Ryan runs his 3-4 defense, that is his "philosophy." As the owner of the Jets, that is what you are hiring for your team and your players. You can't expect a coach to just come into a team, and all of a sudden be blessed with whatever knowledge of the scheme best fits the players already there. You can't expect Ryan to come in and say hey, I think we have the players to run the Tampa-2. Ryan doesn't know the Tampa-2, therefore he can't teach it to his players. That would be like you going to school to be an engineer, and when you start looking for a job, your wife says, "Well there are tons financial advisor jobs, why can't you take one of those."

[thewildrabbit]

Are you really trying to say that because one player couldn't make the transition from the 4-3 to the 3-4 in the NFL, that Brown or Orakpo can't go from their 4-3 to our 4-3? Wow.

 

No,he may ultimately be a great DE someday. I just dislike undersized DE's,I'm fed up with the Bills bad rush defense and would rather see the Bills get a FA DE like Peppers rather then draft some undersized kid that has to gain weight/ muscle to get better.

The Bills already have a super lightweight DE in Schobel,do you honestly think another 250 lb, hands down on the line DE will help the Bills run defense?

[BillsObserver]

No,he may ultimately be a great DE someday. I just dislike undersized DE's,I'm fed up with the Bills bad rush defense and would rather see the Bills get a FA DE like Peppers rather then draft some undersized kid that has to gain weight/ muscle to get better.

 

The Bills already have a super lightweight DE in Schobel,do you honestly think another 250 lb, hands down on the line DE will help the Bills run defense?

 

Super lightweight? James Harrison at 242 (with 16 sacks in the regular season), going to the Super Bowl would disagree. You just lost this argument, bud.