2009 Draft and DE's

[thewildrabbit]

There are several big names that I keep reading about on this board that people want to draft as DE's.

 

Mike Mayock projects 4/5 of these guys as OLB's:Top 5 Defensive Ends

1, Brian Orakpo (OLB) Rush LB

2, Everette Brown (OLB) Rush LB

3, Tyson Jackson - only true DE

4, Aaron Maybin (OLB)

5, Larry English (OLB)

 

Its worth noting that Mayock compares Larry English to Lamar Woodly of the Steelers.

 

As for drafting a center this year, its my take that it will usually take 2-3 years for an O-linemen fully develop,do the bills have this much time to get better? They should grab a really good FA center if they can.

 

BJ Raji is listed as a defensive tackle and not a DE

 

I wouldn't complain if they go after TE Brandon Pettigrew, WR Percy Harvin, WR Jeremy Maclin or one of those OLB's listed above.

 

Mel Kiper's picks"

 

1 Detroit Matthew Stafford QB Georgia

2 St. Louis Andre Smith OT Alabama

3 Kansas City Mark Sanchez QB USC

4 Seattle Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech

5 Cleveland Aaron Curry LB Wake Forest

6 Cincinnati Jason Smith OT Baylor

7 Oakland Jeremy Maclin WR Missouri

8 Jacksonville Eugene Monroe OT Virginia

9 Green Bay Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio St.

10 San Francisco Aaron Maybin DE/OLB Penn St.

11 Buffalo Brandon Pettigrew TE Oklahoma St.

12 Denver B.J. Raji DT Boston College

13 Washington Brian Orakpo DE Texas

14 New Orleans Vontae Davis CB Illinois

15 Houston Everette Brown DE Florida St.

16 San Diego Knowshon Moreno RB Georgia

[billybob]

The day that a DE has to be 275lb is over- a lot of really good ones are in the 250-265 range- which makes you wonder why people still feel you need for 320+ pound OTs - but I digress - I look at the DEs this year and say there's not a one that I'm head over heels with, and of course even DEs who are going to develop into good or great players often do not do much their rookie year- I was looking at Richard Dent a while back and he had 3 sacks his rookie year and 17.5 sacks his next year- I don't think any of the highly rated DEs from last year set the world on fire so if you are looking to get good fast a DE is probably not going to do it.

[Fewell733]

Tyson Jackson is 295 lbs and is a 3-4 DE. He is not a pass rushing DE. Most pass rushing DE's play between 240 and 265 lbs. Most pass rush DE's could also conceivably play rush linebacker in a 3-4, but they could not play outside linebacker in a 4-3 scheme. All of those listed are defensive ends and would fit our system (with the ironic exception of Tyson Jackson).

[ans4e64]

Orakpo, Brown and English can all play at DE.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I realize this may be a really bizarre concept to a few, but why not draft the very best talent and mold the systems around what they do best? Then you have great players playing in systems they excel in instead of the alternative of settling for overachiever and average talent that work hard at trying to make a go of it in their coach's favorite system.

[Pete]

Raji is a DT? Thanks for the news

[thewildrabbit]

All the guys on this board clamoring for a DE in this years draft,sorry I just don't see one worthy of #11 unless the Bills want an undersized DE who should be a OLB.

 

I suppose the Bills could draft one of the DE/OLB listed above and develop them,hows that working for the Jets and Vernon Gholston 6'3'' 264 ? Anyway, any young player drafted could add 10-15lbs of muscle and develop into a really good DE. I just don't see any of these DE's being a high priority at the weights listed.

 

Mario Williams was 6' 7" and 295 when drafted and is currently listed at 291lbs so the Idea that pass rushing DE needs to be in the 250-265 pound range doesn't always fly.I suppose it depends if your looking for the next Bruce Smith 6'4" 262 or Reggie White 6'5" 300 lbs.

 

All these players have a 5 star rating from scout.com

Maybin 6'3" 250-

Orakpo 6'3 1/2" 255

Brown 6'4 1/2" 252

 

Jackson 6'4 1/2" 295

College: LSU

Overall Rank: 19

Position Rank: 4th DE

 

Production 2 Redshirted in 2004. Played in 12 of 13 games in 2005 as a reserve. Took over as a fulltime starter in 2006 (Sophomore), finishing with 37 total tackles, 10 TFL and 8.5 sacks in 13 games. He started all 14 games as a junior in 2007, finishing with 36 total tackles, 3.5 sacks, 10 PBUs and 15 QBHs.

 

Height-Weight-Speed 3 Excellent all-around size. Is tall and well-proportioned. Speed is adequate for such a massive DE prospect but below average for the position

 

Durability 1 Has played in 40 games during his three seasons (2005-'07), including 27 consecutive starts heading into his senior year (2008)

 

Character 2 Needs to show a more consistent motor on the field. However, he does not have any off-the-field incidents to our knowledge and he is considered by the coaches to be one of the core leaders on LSU's football team

Defensive End specific Traits

 

Agility/Quickness 3 Moves well for his size and plays very much under control. However, he's not a typical highly-regarded DE prospect with explosive burst. He lacks ideal quick-twitch athlete and loses too much in transition when changing directions

 

Strength/Toughness 2 He flashes a mean streak but would like to see him play with more consistent effort. Otherwise, his game is built around size, strength and power. There are not many DE's coming out of college with his phone booth skills

 

Instincts 2 Displays good overall awareness and recognition skills. Finds the ball quickly and also plays with discipline. Gets his arms up as a pass rusher and bats down more throws than most DE's

 

Pass Rusher 3 Can win some battles with power moves. Shows the ability to drive OT's back into the QB. Has some strong upper-body moves to get an OT off-balance, but lacks closing burst to consistently take advantage. Will never be a threat to turn the corner with pure speed off the edge in the NFL. Will always be a better run-plugger than pass rusher

 

Run Stopper 1 Is an outstanding run defender. Big-bodied DE with a wide base, long arms and big hands. Can stack and shed. Powerful hitter with adequate wrap-up skills in space, especially for such a big D-lineman

 

Trait Scale1 = Exceptional 2 = Above average 3 = Average 4 = Below average 5 = Marginal

 

Scout.com

2007: Teamed with Glenn Dorsey to give LSU one of the most intimidating defensive fronts in college football ... Started all 14 games at left defensive end ... Credited with 36 total tackles, including 4.5 tackles for loss and 3.5 sacks ... Led team with 15 quarterback hurries ... Second on team with 10 pass breakups.

 

Considering the bills are still having problems stopping the run and should have a better pass rush once Schobel is fully healthy. I've read that this player is very high on Bill Parcells list. This would be my guy,I'd trade back and get him, IF I had to have a DE

[thewildrabbit]

Raji is a DT? Thanks for the news

I mentioned it because I've been reading some stating that the bills should take Raji, who is a DT and not a DE which is a need for the Bills.

[BuckyFillUps]

Maybin needs to add bulk to excell at the next level. I hope everyone realizes that heights and weights are subjective until the combime. Remember when Deshawn Jackson was 6'1? when James Hardy was 6'7"? I have read plenty of articles that say Maybin is closer to 230-240 range. However, if DHB is as advertised, 6'3", 205(seen alot of reads that confirm) we should target him and get an LB later on. DHB could be the playmaker we need to open this offense up.

[thewildrabbit]

Maybin needs to add bulk to excell at the next level. I hope everyone realizes that heights and weights are subjective until the combime. Remember when Deshawn Jackson was 6'1? when James Hardy was 6'7"? I have read plenty of articles that say Maybin is closer to 230-240 range. However, if DHB is as advertised, 6'3", 205(seen alot of reads that confirm) we should target him and get an LB later on. DHB could be the playmaker we need to open this offense up.

To those who might not know who DHB is,WR Darrius Heyward-Bey

 

Heyward-Bey is an explosive playmaker who can change the momentum of a game on any play. He gets a quick release off the line, runs good routes, flashes reliable hands and is elusive in the open field. He gets separation on the outside and tracks down deep throws with ease. He’s doesn’t shy away from going over the middle and making tough receptions in traffic. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com Draft Projection: 1st - 2nd Round

 

The guy is rated the 30th player overall at scout.com so unless the Bills want to trade back for more picks for this guy...

 

Personally if they want a receiver I'd rather see them take,WR Jeremy Maclin* at #11 providing that the Raiders don't take him earlier, If gone I'd say take WR Percy Harvin**

 

*Ranked #11, Maclin is a dynamic all-around performer who excels in multiple areas on the field. He possesses elite speed and quickness and poses a problem for the opposition when the ball is in his hands. He gets a quick release off the line, runs good routes and flashes reliable hands. He’s a playmaker in the open field after making a reception and can take it to the house on any play. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com Draft Projection: 1st Round

 

**Ranked #20, Harvin is a dynamic game breaker who has tremendous versatility on offense and special teams. He has a quick first step and gets separation from the opposition instantly. He runs solid routes, comes back to the ball and flashes excellent hands. He gets vertical, tracks down deep passes and positions himself against defenders to come away with the ball. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com Draft Projection: 1st Round

 

The Bills really need to find someone who can help in the passing game,another burner opposite Lee Evans would allow one of them to get open with single coverage.

[bigc14120]

I realize this may be a really bizarre concept to a few, but why not draft the very best talent and mold the systems around what they do best? Then you have great players playing in systems they excel in instead of the alternative of settling for overachiever and average talent that work hard at trying to make a go of it in their coach's favorite system.

This is a really good comment. Let me add a little. when Jauron came on, he made statements to this effect. But, he has certainly not practiced this....(or else Losman would have been in a roll out offense) Success I have had in other fields has used this doctrine.....square pegs in square holes does work......I am afraid that Fewell can't get off script...that is Tampa 2....that is why we don't change in the manner suggested here. (Turk doesn't have a script) anyhow, this is one of the big failings of the Bills......and why great talent may not always prosper here in Buffalo.

[PushthePile]

Maybin needs to add bulk to excell at the next level. I hope everyone realizes that heights and weights are subjective until the combime. Remember when Deshawn Jackson was 6'1? when James Hardy was 6'7"? I have read plenty of articles that say Maybin is closer to 230-240 range. However, if DHB is as advertised, 6'3", 205(seen alot of reads that confirm) we should target him and get an LB later on. DHB could be the playmaker we need to open this offense up.

I am not opposed to any direction the team wants to go with that pick. We absolutely need to get the best player available. If it's DHB, then make the pick and enjoy the possibilities it gives you on offense. The best teams in this league usually do one or two things great and are solid everywhere else. Look at the cardinals this year! Their are many schools of thought on how to win in this league but the truthfully you can win lots of different ways.

[Wagon Circler]

The day that a DE has to be 275lb is over- a lot of really good ones are in the 250-265 range- which makes you wonder why people still feel you need for 320+ pound OTs - but I digress - I look at the DEs this year and say there's not a one that I'm head over heels with, and of course even DEs who are going to develop into good or great players often do not do much their rookie year- I was looking at Richard Dent a while back and he had 3 sacks his rookie year and 17.5 sacks his next year- I don't think any of the highly rated DEs from last year set the world on fire so if you are looking to get good fast a DE is probably not going to do it.

I don't care. Stop the bull sh-- excuses. Take Orakpo if he's there. It is worth the gamble. Best pass rusher available. NO MORE KELSEY!

[oak tree 12]

There are several big names that I keep reading about on this board that people want to draft as DE's.

 

Mike Mayock projects 4/5 of these guys as OLB's:Top 5 Defensive Ends

1, Brian Orakpo (OLB) Rush LB

2, Everette Brown (OLB) Rush LB

3, Tyson Jackson - only true DE

4, Aaron Maybin (OLB)

5, Larry English (OLB)

 

Its worth noting that Mayock compares Larry English to Lamar Woodly of the Steelers.

 

As for drafting a center this year, its my take that it will usually take 2-3 years for an O-linemen fully develop,do the bills have this much time to get better? They should grab a really good FA center if they can.

 

BJ Raji is listed as a defensive tackle and not a DE

 

I wouldn't complain if they go after TE Brandon Pettigrew, WR Percy Harvin, WR Jeremy Maclin or one of those OLB's listed above.

 

Mel Kiper's picks"

 

1 Detroit Matthew Stafford QB Georgia

2 St. Louis Andre Smith OT Alabama

3 Kansas City Mark Sanchez QB USC

4 Seattle Michael Crabtree WR Texas Tech

5 Cleveland Aaron Curry LB Wake Forest

6 Cincinnati Jason Smith OT Baylor

7 Oakland Jeremy Maclin WR Missouri

8 Jacksonville Eugene Monroe OT Virginia

9 Green Bay Malcolm Jenkins CB Ohio St.

10 San Francisco Aaron Maybin DE/OLB Penn St.

11 Buffalo Brandon Pettigrew TE Oklahoma St.

12 Denver B.J. Raji DT Boston College

13 Washington Brian Orakpo DE Texas

14 New Orleans Vontae Davis CB Illinois

15 Houston Everette Brown DE Florida St.

16 San Diego Knowshon Moreno RB Georgia

 

pat kirwin and tim ryan both @ the senior bowl all week both said the other day that mack will be starting for some team his rookie year. i dont know what your talking about mangold started and played well his rookie year.

 

i still think the bills are going to push hard for birk and draft a center to develope.

 

we all should remember that what the bills do in free agency is going to impact our draft strategy. really i'm not thrilled with the DE's in this draft so i dont think they are going that route in the draft and i dont think the TE is worthy pf #11.

 

if i had to bet i would think they hope one of the premier LB's fall to us,otherwise i think they try hard to drop down and we know how difficult that is.

[Ramius]

All the guys on this board clamoring for a DE in this years draft,sorry I just don't see one worthy of #11 unless the Bills want an undersized DE who should be a OLB.

 

I suppose the Bills could draft one of the DE/OLB listed above and develop them,hows that working for the Jets and Vernon Gholston 6'3'' 264 ? Anyway, any young player drafted could add 10-15lbs of muscle and develop into a really good DE. I just don't see any of these DE's being a high priority at the weights listed.

 

Mario Williams was 6' 7" and 295 when drafted and is currently listed at 291lbs so the Idea that pass rushing DE needs to be in the 250-265 pound range doesn't always fly.I suppose it depends if your looking for the next Bruce Smith 6'4" 262 or Reggie White 6'5" 300 lbs.

 

Undersized?

 

Taking a look at this year's sack leaders for DE's and their weights...

 

Abraham - 263 lbs - 16.5 sacks

Allen - 270 lbs - 14.5 sacks

Tuck - 274 lbs - 12 sacks

Umenyiora - 261 lbs

Mathis - 245 lbs - 11.5 sacks

Freeney - 268 lbs

Howard - 260 lbs

Kampman - 265 lbs

Cole - 270 lbs

 

There are plenty of pass rushers that do not exceed 270 lbs, and plenty of them in the 260 range. Most of the DEs coming out, like Prakpo and Brown, are already in the 250+ range, so theres no reason to believe that they can't be effective as a 4-3 DE in the NFL. Also, mario williams is listed at 283, NOT 291.

[Magox]

I like the idea of Jackson, but not as a first rounder. We need a pass rusher. I'd much rather have that playmaking, explosive, sack machine potential players like orapko and brown.

[BuckyFillUps]

To those who might not know who DHB is,WR Darrius Heyward-Bey

 

Heyward-Bey is an explosive playmaker who can change the momentum of a game on any play. He gets a quick release off the line, runs good routes, flashes reliable hands and is elusive in the open field. He gets separation on the outside and tracks down deep throws with ease. He’s doesn’t shy away from going over the middle and making tough receptions in traffic. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com Draft Projection: 1st - 2nd Round

 

The guy is rated the 30th player overall at scout.com so unless the Bills want to trade back for more picks for this guy...

 

Personally if they want a receiver I'd rather see them take,WR Jeremy Maclin* at #11 providing that the Raiders don't take him earlier, If gone I'd say take WR Percy Harvin**

 

*Ranked #11, Maclin is a dynamic all-around performer who excels in multiple areas on the field. He possesses elite speed and quickness and poses a problem for the opposition when the ball is in his hands. He gets a quick release off the line, runs good routes and flashes reliable hands. He’s a playmaker in the open field after making a reception and can take it to the house on any play. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com Draft Projection: 1st Round

 

**Ranked #20, Harvin is a dynamic game breaker who has tremendous versatility on offense and special teams. He has a quick first step and gets separation from the opposition instantly. He runs solid routes, comes back to the ball and flashes excellent hands. He gets vertical, tracks down deep passes and positions himself against defenders to come away with the ball. - Chris Steuber, Scout.com Draft Projection: 1st Round

 

The Bills really need to find someone who can help in the passing game,another burner opposite Lee Evans would allow one of them to get open with single coverage.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree that a dynamic playmaker is needed @ WR oposite Evans. Until Hardy develops, which I hope he does, we need a wr like DHB, Maclin or even Harvin. All of them have great upsides and can rely on their tremendous althletic gifts until they can hone their skills @ WR( much like D.Jackson)

 

I think Maclin has a chance to go higher than Crabtree. His ability as a returner will offset his "rawness" and appeal to many teams. His speed is extraordinary, and his RAC skills are top flight, and he has the size to go across the middle.

I think Harvin will be a dynamic player as well nut he will be limited by his size.

 

DHB, appears to be the total package, arguably the most althetically gifted WR this year, he has a great frame,( another 15lbs are possible with little or no loss in the speed department) Great height(as I stated earlier, heights and weights are subjective till the combine) and plays with a nastyness you want in todays WR. Lets not forget that even if he isnt 6'3", a sub 4.3 forty and verticle of 40 inches is to say the least, intriguing.

 

Crabtree/DHB @ 11. A decent FA center and a prospect to groom, Resign Crowell, A healthy Schoeble and someone(anyone!!!) not named denny/kelsay on the other side. A trade like Winslow(the browns need a CB and we are DEEEEEEP @ CB...Youboty and a 4th?...anyone?) to make a legit recieving TE. A legit backup QB (J.P.Wilson?) and a RG. That would put the fate of the 2009 seadon soley in Dick's hands. Alot of holes left to fill, damn you Taylor Mays.

[TheLynchTrain]

I think we should go for a DE in the first, either with the 11th or trade down. But I also think we should get Lawrence Sidbury (Richmond Spiders) in a later round. I keep hearing scouts say he is a beast and he's only getting drafted later because he isnt a FBS player, ie might take a while to develop.

 

In fact, I wouldnt mind if we spent all our draft picks on o or d lineman. One of them has to work out, right? But hey, I digress.

 

 

Check him out, he's playing at the senior bowl

[thewildrabbit]

Undersized?

 

Taking a look at this year's sack leaders for DE's and their weights...

 

Abraham - 263 lbs - 16.5 sacks

Allen - 270 lbs - 14.5 sacks

Tuck - 274 lbs - 12 sacks

Umenyiora - 261 lbs

Mathis - 245 lbs - 11.5 sacks

Freeney - 268 lbs

Howard - 260 lbs

Kampman - 265 lbs

Cole - 270 lbs

 

There are plenty of pass rushers that do not exceed 270 lbs, and plenty of them in the 260 range. Most of the DEs coming out, like Prakpo and Brown, are already in the 250+ range, so theres no reason to believe that they can't be effective as a 4-3 DE in the NFL. Also, mario williams is listed at 283, NOT 291.

Good Point on player weights, but I already knew that looking over some rosters.

 

The Bills and fans want to see a pass rush terror on the field opposite Schobel,they won't find one from this draft,at least not for 09 season.

 

Like I stated eariler....I suppose the Bills could draft one of the DE/OLB listed above and develop them,hows that working for the Jets and Vernon Gholston 6'3'' 264 ? Wasn't Gholston supposed to be a great pass rusher,what happened?

Gholston was drafted by the New York Jets sixth overall in the 2008 NFL Draft. Gholston was expected to play outside linebacker in the Jets' 3-4 defense with the Jets citing his speed, strength and “long limbs,” believing they had found the perfect outside pass rusher for their defense.

After struggling to adjust to coach Eric Mangini's 3-4 defensive scheme, 6'4'' 258 when drafted

Anyway, any young player drafted could add 10-15lbs of muscle and develop into a really good DE. I just don't see any of these DE's being a high priority at the weights listed.

With someone posting they see Maybin in the 230-240 range that would really be a reach for an every down lineman.You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project?

[Ramius]

Good Point on player weights, but I already knew that looking over some rosters.

 

The Bills and fans want to see a pass rush terror on the field opposite Schobel,they won't find one from this draft,at least not for 09 season.

 

Like I stated eariler....I suppose the Bills could draft one of the DE/OLB listed above and develop them,hows that working for the Jets and Vernon Gholston 6'3'' 264 ? Wasn't Gholston supposed to be a great pass rusher,what happened?

Gholston was drafted by the New York Jets sixth overall in the 2008 NFL Draft. Gholston was expected to play outside linebacker in the Jets' 3-4 defense with the Jets citing his speed, strength and “long limbs,” believing they had found the perfect outside pass rusher for their defense.

After struggling to adjust to coach Eric Mangini's 3-4 defensive scheme, 6'4'' 258 when drafted

Anyway, any young player drafted could add 10-15lbs of muscle and develop into a really good DE. I just don't see any of these DE's being a high priority at the weights listed.

With someone posting they see Maybin in the 230-240 range that would really be a reach for an every down lineman.You want a DE pass rusher,a hands down on the line player and yet you want to draft a 250 lb project?

 

A DE that comes into the NFL weighing 250+ will have no problem moving into the 260 range with a year's worth of strength and conditioning at the NFL level. Not to mention that they could contribute right off the bat even weighing in the 250s. And a "project" is someone who is raw, which has nothing to do with weight. All of these DEs have proven themselves at the collegiate level. They aren't "projects." And where the hell did i ever mention maybin?

 

Also, please explain how one player who attempted to play OLB at the NFL level and didn't see the field means we shouldn't draft a guy to play DE, just because he's a similar size. The Jets moved Gholston to OLB. The Bills would be drafting one of these guys to play DE. Things that are different aren't the same. Try making some sense before running your mouth.