Marv Speaks

[Buftex]

I'll get destroyed for saying it, but I don't think Levy was a great coach. He was a good coach, and obviously wanted back in three years ago. During his career, he had a fine OC in Marchibroda for several years, and had Polian acquiring players for him through 92-93. Marv just needed to manage the personalities, but from a talent perspective, he had a whole lot.

 

On his blog, Tim Graham made a point that Belichick's 3 SB winning teams will probably have only one HOFer (Brady) while Buffalo's four non-winners will have at least 3 when Bruce Smith is elected. Sure, it's different eras in comparing before and after the cap, but you have a hard time winning SB's without HOF talent.

 

Marv is in the HOF, but if that's the case, shouldn't Dan Reeves and Bud Grant be in as welll. Both had lots of talent, made 4 SB's, and lost them all.

 

Acutually, I think in some ways, Dan Reeves had far less talent at his disposal than Marv did, and yeah, I would put Reeves in the HOF. My feelings about Marv Levy the coach, are far too positive to say he doesn't really belong in the HOF, but when he was inducted, the argument was made, by those thinking he wasn't deserving that "how could you not win 1 Super Bowl with the talent on that roster?" I think that is where Levy's greatness actually comes in. I am not convinced that all of the talent that was on those rosters would have flourished under lesser coaches. If you go beyond the truly great players from those teams (Kelly, Thomas, Reed, Bruce, Bennett and Tasker), you had some pretty marginal talent that played very well under Marv. Most of those guys disappeared when they went to other teams...

[cale]

Acutually, I think in some ways, Dan Reeves had far less talent at his disposal than Marv did, and yeah, I would put Reeves in the HOF. My feelings about Marv Levy the coach, are far too positive to say he doesn't really belong in the HOF, but when he was inducted, the argument was made, by those thinking he wasn't deserving that "how could you not win 1 Super Bowl with the talent on that roster?" I think that is where Levy's greatness actually comes in. I am not convinced that all of the talent that was on those rosters would have flourished under lesser coaches. If you go beyond the truly great players from those teams (Kelly, Thomas, Reed, Bruce, Bennett and Tasker), you had some pretty marginal talent that played very well under Marv. Most of those guys disappeared when they went to other teams...

 

In some ways I think Marv was an alchemist. He certainly made some magic with the ingredients. I thought he sucked rocks as a game day coach. The reason we lost those SBs IMHO was because he expected his players to be men and act responsibly and rise to the occasion.

 

I thought short of that first SB, the team self destructed off and on the field. Even the team leaders couldn't maintain discipline and focus when push came to shove. A strong coach would have corralled those guys - but it was obvious again - that Marv is a hands off guy and let's people do their jobs. Problem is sometimes people just don't fulfill their responsibilities.

 

Marv is not the kind of guy who then holds their feet to the fire.

 

I'm a Top Chef fan and tonight one of the guest judges said, "When you open a restaurant you have to assume people are not gonna do their jobs. It's the only way to be successful."

 

I wonder sometimes if that's not Belichick's mantra. So he micro plans and manages.

 

C

[Thurman#1]

In your warped view of the world, yes.

 

In reality, Marv screwed up pretty badly. Rebuilding the o-line as the best since our Super Bowl year? So you're essentially saying that the line is better than awful -- hardly high praise. Anyone can go out and spend $100M to bring in lineman. That doesn't take skill, nor does it take foresight. The question is how did Marv spend those dollars: spending $100M on Dockery and Walker was just plain stupid.

 

 

Talk to us after this year when we finally get a good center in. When we have five good linemen instead of four, things might look awfully awfully different.

 

Marv was here for two drafts. The 2006 draft looks mixed, with some failures and some successes. The 2007 draft is not quite ready to be graded, but has the potential to become one of the all-time great Bills draft classes.

 

I don't call that failure.

[Thurman#1]

In some ways I think Marv was an alchemist. He certainly made some magic with the ingredients. I thought he sucked rocks as a game day coach. The reason we lost those SBs IMHO was because he expected his players to be men and act responsibly and rise to the occasion.

 

I thought short of that first SB, the team self destructed off and on the field. Even the team leaders couldn't maintain discipline and focus when push came to shove. A strong coach would have corralled those guys - but it was obvious again - that Marv is a hands off guy and let's people do their jobs. Problem is sometimes people just don't fulfill their responsibilities.

 

Marv is not the kind of guy who then holds their feet to the fire.

 

I'm a Top Chef fan and tonight one of the guest judges said, "When you open a restaurant you have to assume people are not gonna do their jobs. It's the only way to be successful."

 

I wonder sometimes if that's not Belichick's mantra. So he micro plans and manages.

 

C

 

 

 

I personally disagree. The reason we lost at least two of those Super Bowls was because we were soft through the middle of the defense. If we had had Pat Williams at NT instead of the small and fast Jeff Wright, we would have picked up at least two rings.

[C.Biscuit97]

Talk to us after this year when we finally get a good center in. When we have five good linemen instead of four, things might look awfully awfully different.

 

Marv was here for two drafts. The 2006 draft looks mixed, with some failures and some successes. The 2007 draft is not quite ready to be graded, but has the potential to become one of the all-time great Bills draft classes.

 

I don't call that failure.

 

 

Don't bother with the Dawgg. He'd rather be right and brag about it on an internet board rather than see the Bills succeed. Marv had 2 seasons and this team is in much better shape than it was before he got here.

[GG]

Don't bother with the Dawgg. He'd rather be right and brag about it on an internet board rather than see the Bills succeed. Marv had 2 seasons and this team is in much better shape than it was before he got here.

 

Arr thar's the rub. Why put criticism in proper context, when you can use a shotgun and carry on the crusade that the franchise was doomed from the day it passed over Ngata?

[Dawgg]

Talk to us after this year when we finally get a good center in. When we have five good linemen instead of four, things might look awfully awfully different.

 

Marv was here for two drafts. The 2006 draft looks mixed, with some failures and some successes. The 2007 draft is not quite ready to be graded, but has the potential to become one of the all-time great Bills draft classes.

 

I don't call that failure.

 

Marv brought in Fowler and signed him to a 3 year deal. That has to count against him.

In addition, Dockery is not nearly as good as his contract indicates. He is paid like Steve Hutchinson but is not even a top 20 guard in the NFL.

 

2006 draft:

 

Whitner - Hardly a success, given where he was picked. He played poorly last year, but I'll say this pick is neutral for arguments sake.

McCargo - failure. Don't need to say more than that.

Youboty - neutral. He should be considered a failure given his lack of production but he has potential.

Simpson - failure. Buried on the depth chart.

Butler - success.

Kyle Williams - success.

Keith Ellison - neutral.

Terrance Pennington - neutral.

[Fan in Chicago]

Don't bother with the Dawgg. He'd rather be right and brag about it on an internet board rather than see the Bills succeed. Marv had 2 seasons and this team is in much better shape than it was before he got here.

How do you define being in better shape ? Yes, we have good character guys and excellent special teams on the team but:

- Still have a losing record

- Still haven't made the playoffs

- Don't have an identity on D or O

- Way under salary cap but don't use it to make key additions

- No stability at the QB position

 

Bottom line is the team players 'look' good but the results are about the same.

[Dawgg]

Don't bother with the Dawgg. He'd rather be right and brag about it on an internet board rather than see the Bills succeed. Marv had 2 seasons and this team is in much better shape than it was before he got here.

 

Nah... it was you who consistently hurled insults at objective posters who dared question Marv's moves at the time.

 

Now that you've been proven wrong you still hang onto the misguided notion that we're "way" better off than we were before Marv came on — a laughable one at best.

 

The Trent Edwards selection was a stroke of genius, I will give him that.

[Dawgg]

Arr thar's the rub. Why put criticism in proper context, when you can use a shotgun and carry on the crusade that the franchise was doomed from the day it passed over Ngata?

 

If that was the "only" personnel blunder of the Levy era, the Bills would be a playoff contender.

 

However, due to the litany of mistakes, both in the draft and in free agency, we are where we are today. If that's not enough context for you, how about:

 

7-9

7-9

7-9

[Coach Tuesday]

The fixation on Marv is overblown. He basically organized everyone and made sure everyone was doing their jobs. He wasn't the lead scout or personnel evaluator - he left it to others to do that. His roles were to make sure that the organization ran smoothly, to rebuild the public face of the franchise, and to re-energize the staff after Donahoe's Reign of Terror. He did all of those things. You wanna blame someone for the mistakes made during Marv's tenure, the target should be Ralph. Ralph's the one who doesn't want to pay quality scouts, instead relying primarily on his position coaches to scout players. Ralph's the one who won't hire a football man as GM. Ralph's the one who lets Littman get in his ear about personnel and coaching decisions. Ralph's the one who lets John Guy continue to draw a paycheck (see: Dockery, Fowler, Royal, Tripplet). The anger at Marv is shallow - as he himself has admitted, he was just a figurehead.

[Ray]

Marv did what he was brought in to do. The whole feel/aura around the team after the Donahoe era was terrible. It was 110 times worse than today. They had no QB other than Losman and enormous holes to fill as well as the attitude of the organization and city. Do you really think Marv and the pro scouts were looking for a center and identified Fowler as the best center or Royal as the best TE? Of course not! But acting within the budget constraints of the team they identified mid-level free agents. What other free agent center at that time has excelled? NONE....is the answer. So let's put things in context which nobody seems to want to do.

Whitner vs Ngata is a legitimate argument....but Ngata is not as good a player playing next to Kyle Williams. If we had Ngata then we would not have gone after Stroud. What they saaw in Whitner was a guy who was a leader and saw him for both his off field attributes and as a great safety (the latter has yet to materialize). But he is a good safety.

Let's see how his draft with Lynch/Edwards/Poz goes.......depending how they play after their 3rd year it could range from average to one of the best drafts in Bills' history.

[Fan in Chicago]

The fixation on Marv is overblown. He basically organized everyone and made sure everyone was doing their jobs. He wasn't the lead scout or personnel evaluator - he left it to others to do that. His roles were to make sure that the organization ran smoothly, to rebuild the public face of the franchise, and to re-energize the staff after Donahoe's Reign of Terror. He did all of those things. You wanna blame someone for the mistakes made during Marv's tenure, the target should be Ralph. Ralph's the one who doesn't want to pay quality scouts, instead relying primarily on his position coaches to scout players. Ralph's the one who won't hire a football man as GM. Ralph's the one who lets Littman get in his ear about personnel and coaching decisions. Ralph's the one who lets John Guy continue to draw a paycheck (see: Dockery, Fowler, Royal, Tripplet). The anger at Marv is shallow - as he himself has admitted, he was just a figurehead.

 

Well, if he was just a figurehead, he should not get any credit for all the good things you write about. Can't have it both ways. Bottom line is that the organization was ineffective in producing a winner and Levy's short tenure did nothing to change that.

[GG]

The fixation on Marv is overblown. He basically organized everyone and made sure everyone was doing their jobs. He wasn't the lead scout or personnel evaluator - he left it to others to do that. His roles were to make sure that the organization ran smoothly, to rebuild the public face of the franchise, and to re-energize the staff after Donahoe's Reign of Terror. He did all of those things. You wanna blame someone for the mistakes made during Marv's tenure, the target should be Ralph. Ralph's the one who doesn't want to pay quality scouts, instead relying primarily on his position coaches to scout players. Ralph's the one who won't hire a football man as GM. Ralph's the one who lets Littman get in his ear about personnel and coaching decisions. Ralph's the one who lets John Guy continue to draw a paycheck (see: Dockery, Fowler, Royal, Tripplet). The anger at Marv is shallow - as he himself has admitted, he was just a figurehead.

 

Bravo. I love the criticism of Marv that he wasn't really a true GM, only to be followed by criticism that he made poor personnel decisions. Huh? Which one is it?

 

His biggest fault was the decision to hire Jauron, for which there's no defense now that the verdict is in. But but his and everyone's admission, his role was to stabilize the franchise's direction after TD's years and give the team a new identity, which I think has happened. Sure, the 7-9 consecutive record speaks volumes, but 99% of that is the result of the coaching staff and their decisions rather than what Levy did.

 

It's not hard to read between the lines of Wilson's statements that Modrak would now be part of the inner circle. Well, who was that inner circle before, if not Ralph's inner ear? It's been very clear that Jauron had a big say in personnel decisions and roster composition. The drafting of TBD's favorite whipping boy, Whitner, has Jauron written all over it, as Levy & Modrak favored picking Cutler at that spot.

 

Same with any other roster move in his two year stint. Read between the lines. The decision to bring players in came down to Guy's & Modrak's recommendations, Jauron's roster needs and Wilson's willingness to pay. Levy's role in the team was to make sure they were on the same page, but he did not dictate the player movement to the extent that Donahoe did.

 

As for team identity, I think the Bills do have it, as the players are god enough and play hard. But Levy also wanted to start the foundation, knowing that you don't build a lasting franchise with quick fixes. Still, with better coaching, this team would have been a bigger competitor last year and made the playoffs this year.

 

To me the gauge of an improving team is when its cast offs make a solid contribution elsewhere. I'm not talking about prize free agents, but guys who lost their jobs to better players on the Bills' roster. That means that you are heading in the right direction, personnel-wise, even if you don't see the results this year. That was woefully absent during the entire Donahoe regime.

 

So, go ahead and slam Levy for the Jauron hiring, he was wrong on that one. But don't tie Jauron's & Wilson's faults on him, either.

[Arkady Renko]

I think the best proof of Marv's greatness of a head coach was his ability to get the team into the Super Bowl year after year. I'd think after at least the second one, most coaches would fail to get the players to regroup. Yet he brought them back four times.

 

This is in line with the two comebacks. Everyone remembers the Oilers comeback, but remember the 1997 Colts comeback as well. With Todd Collins as QB, Marv was able to get the team to regroup and make a very impressive comeback by a substandard team.

 

I think there were some mistakes in the Giants game that we can point to, but in any close game there always will be. The Cowboys teams were stacked and were successful the rest of the decade. I feel like the last Super Bowl was still very winnable, but the Cowboys clearly had the better talent.

 

If the team had had a DC like Wade during the Super Bowl years, I think we would have won it.

[BillsWatch]

Marv admitted he didn't watch every game, but caught the few he could on TV, attended a few, and watched the play-by-play on the internet for the games that weren't on TV. Apparently he doesn't have the NFL package on DirecTV.

 

Or Marv is on the road a lot and does not have time or inclination to seek out someplace watching the game. Or maybe he does not have DirecTV like a lot of people.

 

Wow, inspiring... even Marv has become a dispassionate (sometime) observer...

 

That is more reflecting your opinion than Marv's.

[Magox]

I personally disagree. The reason we lost at least two of those Super Bowls was because we were soft through the middle of the defense. If we had had Pat Williams at NT instead of the small and fast Jeff Wright, we would have picked up at least two rings.

 

I think the same thing too!! I wish we had Pat Williams instead of Jeff Wright in the middle. There is no doubt that we would of won the first game against the Giants. O.J killed us in the second half

[nobody]

I guess this Marv thread started one minute before the other one so to put my comment here:

 

You could just tell that Marv knew he had to defend Jauron even if he didn't want to.

[C.Biscuit97]

Nah... it was you who consistently hurled insults at objective posters who dared question Marv's moves at the time.

 

Now that you've been proven wrong you still hang onto the misguided notion that we're "way" better off than we were before Marv came on — a laughable one at best.

 

The Trent Edwards selection was a stroke of genius, I will give him that.

 

 

Bottomline, if Trent pans out into a franchise QB, Marv did a great job. It's really that simple.

 

If he doesn't, it will look a lot more questionable. But I think it is completely unrealistic to make any hard judgements about his tenure because he was only here 2 years in the GM role. He had to completely rebuild after the TD mess. You need at least 3 years (though 5 years is probably a better gauge for the GM position) to completely put your stamp on a team.

[Dawgg]

His biggest fault was the decision to hire Jauron, for which there's no defense now that the verdict is in.

 

His biggest fault was not Jauron. It was re-signing Kelsay to a monster contract, signing Dockery to a monster deal, and re-signing an aging Schobel when he had 3 years left on his deal. The total value of those contracts is almost $150M. Don't blame Ralph because he clearly showed a willingness to spend money. The problem is that the personnel department failed to use those resources wisely.

 

Jauron wasn't a great head coaching hire, but I'm sick and tired of fans going after the head coach every 2 years. The constant in all this ineptitude has been the front office: Overdorf, Modrak, Guy, etc... the blame falls squarely on them. IN the 2 years Marv was at the helm, he had final say on all personnel decisions and I'm sorry to say the buck stops there.

 

Sure, the 7-9 consecutive record speaks volumes, but 99% of that is the result of the coaching staff and their decisions rather than what Levy did.

 

Yes, I'm sure the poor decisions in free agency and the draft have very little to do with the on-field performance of the Bills. It's all Jauron.

 

Well, who was that inner circle before, if not Ralph's inner ear? It's been very clear that Jauron had a big say in personnel decisions and roster composition. The drafting of TBD's favorite whipping boy, Whitner, has Jauron written all over it, as Levy & Modrak favored picking Cutler at that spot.

 

Get your facts straight. Marv never said they favored Cutler at that spot. He simply stated that if they were to choose a QB at that spot, they would have chosen Jay Cutler. The front office had no intention of picking a quarterback, as they were still ready to give JP Losman one last chance to secure the job.

 

And even if you were right in your assertion and Jauron was responsible for the Whitner pick, it still falls on Marv because he had final say on all personnel decisions. Standing back and watching your team pick an overrated safety at #8 does not make a good GM, no matter how you spin it.

 

Same with any other roster move in his two year stint. Read between the lines. The decision to bring players in came down to Guy's & Modrak's recommendations, Jauron's roster needs and Wilson's willingness to pay. Levy's role in the team was to make sure they were on the same page, but he did not dictate the player movement to the extent that Donahoe did.

 

I'll certainly agree that Modrak, Overdorf and Guy consistently get a free pass. Doesn't change the fact that the personnel decisions in those 2 years were, for the most part, illadvised.

 

To me the gauge of an improving team is when its cast offs make a solid contribution elsewhere. I'm not talking about prize free agents, but guys who lost their jobs to better players on the Bills' roster. That means that you are heading in the right direction, personnel-wise, even if you don't see the results this year. That was woefully absent during the entire Donahoe regime.

 

Yes, so crappy players getting cut for marginally better players is a sign of progress??? Like Dwayne Wright losing his job to Xavier Omon? Your standards are awfully low... and I think that about sums it up.