BuffaloBaumer Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Clearly this Tampa 2 thing is a joke here in Buffalo but maybe with a guy like Meeks (who learned from the guy who mastered it), it could be a step in the right direction. Ahh forget it, it would not be a lateral move...why bother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ahh forget it, it would not be a lateral move...why bother! That confuses me because Meeks is unemployed (at least I think he is). The biggest reason he won't be coming here IMO is because it would upset continuity which is very important in the NFL where it is difficult to win in weather that is sometimes interesting even if you do practice well (indoors) on Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauderswr80 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Not many teams run with the Tampa 2 anymore do they? I know some teams recently dropped that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Funny thing is... all it takes is 2-3 teams to get great Tampa 2 Defenses for everyone to switch back. People like to parrot that teams are switching to the 3-4 because a couple teams have great defenses with it.... but guess what? It's the players not the scheme. This is how the NFL works; teams copy whatever scheme that good teams are using. Its all a giant cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBaumer Posted January 21, 2009 Author Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well, since the Bills don't seem to be making ONE move on the coaching side, they have no choice but to overspend. I know that is not their nature but they are going to have to do it. 1) Have to do something to creat a buzz for the fans 2) Have to give x player much more than normal since this organization is in the dumps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandConfused Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Not many teams run with the Tampa 2 anymore do they? I know some teams recently dropped that..... I think part of the problem here is that we outside observers are being a bit too rigid in defining a team as either adopting or dropping a particular defensive scheme. The simple fact is that if any teams is so easily definable as running any one sche,e or the other the vast % of the time, this team will simply get eaten alive by opponents who will figure out the weaknesses of that one scheme and then keep on beating it until the opponent adjusts. The Tampa 2 is actually an example of this as basically it is a Cover 2 scheme which seems to this non-professional to basically be a scheme which makes greater use than standard NFL 4-3 Ds of the safeties as downfield cover guys. What makes the Cover 2 different than the norm, is that is employs the CBs primarily as short zone cover guys, outside run stoppers and CB blitzers, and requires the safeties to not only do their traditional jobs of middle run tackling support and TE/RB short zone coverage, but gives the extra duty of primary deep zone coverage on the WRs. This D became doable and the latest new thang because safeties developed a range of athleticism, speed, and talent that folks like Polamalu and Sanders had the game smarts and ability to do well in this massively diverse role. Though this approach at first gave OCs fits, they made adjustments to find and pick on the Cover 2 weaknesses. Basically, it called for a safety to many things over a lot of field. OCs found that if they simply flooded the deep zone, that even the best safeties could not cover two guys at once and that when you sent three or even four guys deep you ended up with an LB covering a fast RB or a slot WR, in the weak deep middle seam as the safeties went outside to cover fly patterns. The Tampa 2 was basically an adjustment to deal with this Cover 2 weakness. The Tampa 2 in order to work well requires an MLB with the speed to actually play pass coverage well in the middle deep zone, AND the tackling ability to do the traditional MLB job of tackling sideline to sideline, AND the football smarts to read the play quickly to determine whether the play is a run or a pass. For the Bills London Fletcher brought a lot to the table to play this role. He is a sideline to sideline tackler who traditionally led the Bills by far in tackles to his credit. He has great pass coverage skills and in his last year as a Bill led the NFL in INTs by an LB. His ball handling and deep ball reading skills were so good he played the role of the short kickoff return guy for the Bills as well. Yet, despite some clear talents he proved not to be good enough to make the Tampa 2 work for us as though he did make the proper reads and had a very good number of solo stops to his credit, he continually left Bills fans feeling that he would make his initial contact too deep in our D backfield to make the good tackles/solo stops and INT #s work for us. I think we went with Posluszny for a range of reasons (the Bills got a youngster with dynamic speed and very good tackling ability that we could mold into a Tampa 2 MLB and by replacing the old guard Fletch make the team Jauron's team rather than LeBeau/Cray's team), but ironically though Pos has proven to be as advertised in terms of speed, smarts and tackling ability he actually looks a lot like London Fletcher to me as making the hits but too deep into our D backfield. To me this is because though our safety play has been good, the Tampa 2 (and even the Cover 2 for that matter) need not just good but outstanding safety play in order to be imposing and dictate to the OC what he can try to do. Whitner seemed on track after his first two seasons to be the man who would make our Tampa 2 imposing (he proved clearly to be the best safety drafted his year being a better performer than Huff taken a pick earlier) and improved his second year to seem on the edge of becoming a Pro Bowl worthy talent. He also seemed to realize the import of his assignment and made leadership pronouncements guaranteeing the playoff this year. However, the injury bug which had hinted at being an issue for Whitner his first two years really emerged this year and he missed critical PT and seemed slowed and was not as imposing as we would need to make the Tampa 2 work.. Our other safeties have proven to be surprisingly good for a late draftee and an FA pick-up but not great either hence our Tampa 2 does not strike me as idiotic, but simply we are not good enough to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets_go_bills Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 We don't fire incompetent coaches. We promote them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 I think part of the problem here is that we outside observers are being a bit too rigid in defining a team as either adopting or dropping a particular defensive scheme. The simple fact is that if any teams is so easily definable as running any one sche,e or the other the vast % of the time, this team will simply get eaten alive by opponents who will figure out the weaknesses of that one scheme and then keep on beating it until the opponent adjusts. The Tampa 2 is actually an example of this as basically it is a Cover 2 scheme which seems to this non-professional to basically be a scheme which makes greater use than standard NFL 4-3 Ds of the safeties as downfield cover guys. What makes the Cover 2 different than the norm, is that is employs the CBs primarily as short zone cover guys, outside run stoppers and CB blitzers, and requires the safeties to not only do their traditional jobs of middle run tackling support and TE/RB short zone coverage, but gives the extra duty of primary deep zone coverage on the WRs. This D became doable and the latest new thang because safeties developed a range of athleticism, speed, and talent that folks like Polamalu and Sanders had the game smarts and ability to do well in this massively diverse role. Though this approach at first gave OCs fits, they made adjustments to find and pick on the Cover 2 weaknesses. Basically, it called for a safety to many things over a lot of field. OCs found that if they simply flooded the deep zone, that even the best safeties could not cover two guys at once and that when you sent three or even four guys deep you ended up with an LB covering a fast RB or a slot WR, in the weak deep middle seam as the safeties went outside to cover fly patterns. The Tampa 2 was basically an adjustment to deal with this Cover 2 weakness. The Tampa 2 in order to work well requires an MLB with the speed to actually play pass coverage well in the middle deep zone, AND the tackling ability to do the traditional MLB job of tackling sideline to sideline, AND the football smarts to read the play quickly to determine whether the play is a run or a pass. For the Bills London Fletcher brought a lot to the table to play this role. He is a sideline to sideline tackler who traditionally led the Bills by far in tackles to his credit. He has great pass coverage skills and in his last year as a Bill led the NFL in INTs by an LB. His ball handling and deep ball reading skills were so good he played the role of the short kickoff return guy for the Bills as well. Yet, despite some clear talents he proved not to be good enough to make the Tampa 2 work for us as though he did make the proper reads and had a very good number of solo stops to his credit, he continually left Bills fans feeling that he would make his initial contact too deep in our D backfield to make the good tackles/solo stops and INT #s work for us. I think we went with Posluszny for a range of reasons (the Bills got a youngster with dynamic speed and very good tackling ability that we could mold into a Tampa 2 MLB and by replacing the old guard Fletch make the team Jauron's team rather than LeBeau/Cray's team), but ironically though Pos has proven to be as advertised in terms of speed, smarts and tackling ability he actually looks a lot like London Fletcher to me as making the hits but too deep into our D backfield. To me this is because though our safety play has been good, the Tampa 2 (and even the Cover 2 for that matter) need not just good but outstanding safety play in order to be imposing and dictate to the OC what he can try to do. Whitner seemed on track after his first two seasons to be the man who would make our Tampa 2 imposing (he proved clearly to be the best safety drafted his year being a better performer than Huff taken a pick earlier) and improved his second year to seem on the edge of becoming a Pro Bowl worthy talent. He also seemed to realize the import of his assignment and made leadership pronouncements guaranteeing the playoff this year. However, the injury bug which had hinted at being an issue for Whitner his first two years really emerged this year and he missed critical PT and seemed slowed and was not as imposing as we would need to make the Tampa 2 work.. Our other safeties have proven to be surprisingly good for a late draftee and an FA pick-up but not great either hence our Tampa 2 does not strike me as idiotic, but simply we are not good enough to make it work. Welcome back, Dik Smub! Sell the fool's gold on Wall St.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Clearly this Tampa 2 thing is a joke here in Buffalo but maybe with a guy like Meeks (who learned from the guy who mastered it), it could be a step in the right direction. Ahh forget it, it would not be a lateral move...why bother! Why would we fire our coach for someone who never got it right in Indy either? How is that NOT a lateral move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazedandConfused Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Welcome back, Dik Smub! Sell the fool's gold on Wall St.? Yep. I got offered by the private sector what it was worth, but fortunately got a bailout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yep. I got offered by the private sector what it was worth, but fortunately got a bailout. Was it TARP money or Free Money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckyFillUps Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I think part of the problem here is that we outside observers are being a bit too rigid in defining a team as either adopting or dropping a particular defensive scheme. The simple fact is that if any teams is so easily definable as running any one sche,e or the other the vast % of the time, this team will simply get eaten alive by opponents who will figure out the weaknesses of that one scheme and then keep on beating it until the opponent adjusts. The Tampa 2 is actually an example of this as basically it is a Cover 2 scheme which seems to this non-professional to basically be a scheme which makes greater use than standard NFL 4-3 Ds of the safeties as downfield cover guys. What makes the Cover 2 different than the norm, is that is employs the CBs primarily as short zone cover guys, outside run stoppers and CB blitzers, and requires the safeties to not only do their traditional jobs of middle run tackling support and TE/RB short zone coverage, but gives the extra duty of primary deep zone coverage on the WRs. This D became doable and the latest new thang because safeties developed a range of athleticism, speed, and talent that folks like Polamalu and Sanders had the game smarts and ability to do well in this massively diverse role. Though this approach at first gave OCs fits, they made adjustments to find and pick on the Cover 2 weaknesses. Basically, it called for a safety to many things over a lot of field. OCs found that if they simply flooded the deep zone, that even the best safeties could not cover two guys at once and that when you sent three or even four guys deep you ended up with an LB covering a fast RB or a slot WR, in the weak deep middle seam as the safeties went outside to cover fly patterns. The Tampa 2 was basically an adjustment to deal with this Cover 2 weakness. The Tampa 2 in order to work well requires an MLB with the speed to actually play pass coverage well in the middle deep zone, AND the tackling ability to do the traditional MLB job of tackling sideline to sideline, AND the football smarts to read the play quickly to determine whether the play is a run or a pass. For the Bills London Fletcher brought a lot to the table to play this role. He is a sideline to sideline tackler who traditionally led the Bills by far in tackles to his credit. He has great pass coverage skills and in his last year as a Bill led the NFL in INTs by an LB. His ball handling and deep ball reading skills were so good he played the role of the short kickoff return guy for the Bills as well. Yet, despite some clear talents he proved not to be good enough to make the Tampa 2 work for us as though he did make the proper reads and had a very good number of solo stops to his credit, he continually left Bills fans feeling that he would make his initial contact too deep in our D backfield to make the good tackles/solo stops and INT #s work for us. I think we went with Posluszny for a range of reasons (the Bills got a youngster with dynamic speed and very good tackling ability that we could mold into a Tampa 2 MLB and by replacing the old guard Fletch make the team Jauron's team rather than LeBeau/Cray's team), but ironically though Pos has proven to be as advertised in terms of speed, smarts and tackling ability he actually looks a lot like London Fletcher to me as making the hits but too deep into our D backfield. To me this is because though our safety play has been good, the Tampa 2 (and even the Cover 2 for that matter) need not just good but outstanding safety play in order to be imposing and dictate to the OC what he can try to do. Whitner seemed on track after his first two seasons to be the man who would make our Tampa 2 imposing (he proved clearly to be the best safety drafted his year being a better performer than Huff taken a pick earlier) and improved his second year to seem on the edge of becoming a Pro Bowl worthy talent. He also seemed to realize the import of his assignment and made leadership pronouncements guaranteeing the playoff this year. However, the injury bug which had hinted at being an issue for Whitner his first two years really emerged this year and he missed critical PT and seemed slowed and was not as imposing as we would need to make the Tampa 2 work.. Our other safeties have proven to be surprisingly good for a late draftee and an FA pick-up but not great either hence our Tampa 2 does not strike me as idiotic, but simply we are not good enough to make it work. Good write up. I agree we need an upgrade @ safety. I think it is more of an issue than most give it credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 I think part of the problem here is that we outside observers are being a bit too rigid in defining a team as either adopting or dropping a particular defensive scheme. The simple fact is that if any teams is so easily definable as running any one sche,e or the other the vast % of the time, this team will simply get eaten alive by opponents who will figure out the weaknesses of that one scheme and then keep on beating it until the opponent adjusts. The Tampa 2 is actually an example of this as basically it is a Cover 2 scheme which seems to this non-professional to basically be a scheme which makes greater use than standard NFL 4-3 Ds of the safeties as downfield cover guys. What makes the Cover 2 different than the norm, is that is employs the CBs primarily as short zone cover guys, outside run stoppers and CB blitzers, and requires the safeties to not only do their traditional jobs of middle run tackling support and TE/RB short zone coverage, but gives the extra duty of primary deep zone coverage on the WRs. This D became doable and the latest new thang because safeties developed a range of athleticism, speed, and talent that folks like Polamalu and Sanders had the game smarts and ability to do well in this massively diverse role. Though this approach at first gave OCs fits, they made adjustments to find and pick on the Cover 2 weaknesses. Basically, it called for a safety to many things over a lot of field. OCs found that if they simply flooded the deep zone, that even the best safeties could not cover two guys at once and that when you sent three or even four guys deep you ended up with an LB covering a fast RB or a slot WR, in the weak deep middle seam as the safeties went outside to cover fly patterns. The Tampa 2 was basically an adjustment to deal with this Cover 2 weakness. The Tampa 2 in order to work well requires an MLB with the speed to actually play pass coverage well in the middle deep zone, AND the tackling ability to do the traditional MLB job of tackling sideline to sideline, AND the football smarts to read the play quickly to determine whether the play is a run or a pass. For the Bills London Fletcher brought a lot to the table to play this role. He is a sideline to sideline tackler who traditionally led the Bills by far in tackles to his credit. He has great pass coverage skills and in his last year as a Bill led the NFL in INTs by an LB. His ball handling and deep ball reading skills were so good he played the role of the short kickoff return guy for the Bills as well. Yet, despite some clear talents he proved not to be good enough to make the Tampa 2 work for us as though he did make the proper reads and had a very good number of solo stops to his credit, he continually left Bills fans feeling that he would make his initial contact too deep in our D backfield to make the good tackles/solo stops and INT #s work for us. I think we went with Posluszny for a range of reasons (the Bills got a youngster with dynamic speed and very good tackling ability that we could mold into a Tampa 2 MLB and by replacing the old guard Fletch make the team Jauron's team rather than LeBeau/Cray's team), but ironically though Pos has proven to be as advertised in terms of speed, smarts and tackling ability he actually looks a lot like London Fletcher to me as making the hits but too deep into our D backfield. To me this is because though our safety play has been good, the Tampa 2 (and even the Cover 2 for that matter) need not just good but outstanding safety play in order to be imposing and dictate to the OC what he can try to do. Whitner seemed on track after his first two seasons to be the man who would make our Tampa 2 imposing (he proved clearly to be the best safety drafted his year being a better performer than Huff taken a pick earlier) and improved his second year to seem on the edge of becoming a Pro Bowl worthy talent. He also seemed to realize the import of his assignment and made leadership pronouncements guaranteeing the playoff this year. However, the injury bug which had hinted at being an issue for Whitner his first two years really emerged this year and he missed critical PT and seemed slowed and was not as imposing as we would need to make the Tampa 2 work.. Our other safeties have proven to be surprisingly good for a late draftee and an FA pick-up but not great either hence our Tampa 2 does not strike me as idiotic, but simply we are not good enough to make it work. If you can stop the run with your front 7 and consistently put pressure on the QB with a 4 man rush, you will be successful no mater what your base defense is. The DL is the key component in both of these things. Linebackers and safeties look a lot better when they're playing behind a good defensive line. Just compare at Jim Leonhard's play in Baltimore to his play in Buffalo. And even if you have a great athlete in the secondary who plays behind a sketchy defensive line and still looks good (like Bob Sanders), your defense will still probably be weak (like the Colt's). The strong cover 2 defenses that I can remember all had pretty tough DLs. Think of Warren Sapp, Anthony McFarland & Simeon Rice anchoring Tampa's Super Bowl championship defense. 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erynthered Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Tampa is scrapping the Tampa 2. Just heard it on the radio down here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagon Circler Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 That confuses me because Meeks is unemployed (at least I think he is). The biggest reason he won't be coming here IMO is because it would upset continuity which is very important in the NFL where it is difficult to win in weather that is sometimes interesting even if you do practice well (indoors) on Friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The biggest reason he won't be coming here IMO is because it would upset continuity which is very important in the NFL where it is difficult to win in weather that is sometimes interesting even if you do practice well (indoors) on Friday. LOL .... maybe this year they will put giant fans inside to at least simu8late the wind conditions at the Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 The missing piece is DE's that can pressure the QB and stop the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLynchTrain Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Good write up. I agree we need an upgrade @ safety. I think it is more of an issue than most give it credit. Yes! Why don't be draft another high round DB!!!! YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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