DrDawkinstein Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 Well, all the things that enabled them all to get back to '77 and change the history of the DI are what led to the DI being what it was. W/o them, it wouldn't have happened exactly as it did. The universe course correcting to make sure than what happened happens. Does fate outweigh free will? I think the answer so far in this show is a resounding, Yes! As the Locke-Jack debate has shown to be in Locke's favor --- "All roads lead here." Perhaps what you write about is the goal of the coming "war." To break the inevitability of whatever future that the Numbers equation quantifies/predicts(?). There was a Youtube video released by the show that shows a Dharma discussion of the numbers... it was pretty vague still, but explained their determination to change them. in regards to your second paragraph.... back in the days of season 1 and 2 when everyone was digging up viral information on what the Dharma Initiative and the "numbers" were, it came out that the numbers were part of the Valenzetti Equation that predicted mankind's demise. and the goal of the Dharma Initiative was to conduct experiments to see if they could change the numbers at all and, therefore, save mankind. What the "demise" is, and what they planned on changing is still a mystery. but it very well could be the fight between free-will and fate. it is possible that the entire "change the numbers, save mankind" thing really means "go back in time and change something without the universe course correcting, save mankind". kind of the same, but different.
Hazed and Amuzed Posted March 20, 2009 Posted March 20, 2009 in regards to your second paragraph.... back in the days of season 1 and 2 when everyone was digging up viral information on what the Dharma Initiative and the "numbers" were, it came out that the numbers were part of the Valenzetti Equation that predicted mankind's demise. and the goal of the Dharma Initiative was to conduct experiments to see if they could change the numbers at all and, therefore, save mankind. What the "demise" is, and what they planned on changing is still a mystery. but it very well could be the fight between free-will and fate. it is possible that the entire "change the numbers, save mankind" thing really means "go back in time and change something without the universe course correcting, save mankind". kind of the same, but different. Nice theory Dank, that's one ending that I wouldn't be disappointed in.
Thirdborn Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Nice theory Dank, that's one ending that I wouldn't be disappointed in. I hate to be a buzzkill ...... But, the show culminates with an epsiode that has the entire cast flying low over the moon and seeing "earth" for the very first time. upon arrival, they realize that the inhabitatants don't have a spoken language, or any real culture for that matter, and we are told that our cast decides to give up all technology in order to begin anew..... to break the cycle ....... sorry.
Ramius Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Just a quick thought before tonight...if Sawyer, Jack, Kate, etc are all in 1977 and sun/frank/ben are in 2007 (their current time), shouldn't sawyer, kate, jack possibly all be on the island in 2007, having lived there for the past 30 years?
DrDawkinstein Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Just a quick thought before tonight...if Sawyer, Jack, Kate, etc are all in 1977 and sun/frank/ben are in 2007 (their current time), shouldn't sawyer, kate, jack possibly all be on the island in 2007, having lived there for the past 30 years? great idea/question!! but i would think if that were the case, they would have all been there when the plane crashed in season 1. OR MAYBE, they were on the island, living as elderly people and when the plane crashed they "jumped" back into their former/present/future selves and that is why they had to go back... this question makes me brain cramp. i think i got a temporal jump nose bleed just thinking about it. god i love this show
UConn James Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Just a quick thought before tonight...if Sawyer, Jack, Kate, etc are all in 1977 and sun/frank/ben are in 2007 (their current time), shouldn't sawyer, kate, jack possibly all be on the island in 2007, having lived there for the past 30 years? Theoretically, they could be. Doubt it, tho. They did not show Faraday approaching the "donkey wheel" during the Orchid's construction for nothing. We will be seeing events surrounding that in coming episodes. Also, two people seem to have done exactly that... what with the fairly-widely-agreed speculation that "Adam & Eve" are Bernard and Rose. I wonder why Sawyer/Jin/et al never found them in searching the island grid-by-grid "for our people" as mentioned in "LaFleur." Or, perhaps, they did find B&R and they just chose to live in the caves per Rose's wish to never leave the island. We'll see. There is no repeat episode being shown tonight. Nor next week, per listings. That sucks; I use it as a refresher and there were a couple of things I wanted to see again, mostly the shape behind Sun that people think is Claire. Tonight's ep is titled, "He's Our You" and is Sayid-centric. The promotional copy reads, "Things begin to unravel when one of the survivors goes rogue and takes matters into their own hands --- risking the lives of everyone on the island."
Cugalabanza Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Tonight's ep is titled, "He's Our You" and is Sayid-centric. The promotional copy reads, "Things begin to unravel when one of the survivors goes rogue and takes matters into their own hands --- risking the lives of everyone on the island." That made me laugh a little. "Things BEGIN to unravel...?" I guess because it's been such smooth sailing up to this point.
UConn James Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 That made me laugh a little. "Things BEGIN to unravel...?" I guess because it's been such smooth sailing up to this point. Maybe the unraveling of which it speaks is Sawyer's / LaFleur's master plan. From the end of last week's ep, it looks like Sayid has plans of his own... namely trying to kill Young Ben. Vouchsafe that, as we've all seen, the island will not allow for this to happen. Which I think will lead to Sawyer, however reluctantly, being the example for how Ben operates (not for nothing that they are both masters of the long con, and then with Sawyer's bit last week about how reading a book each night helps him think weighed in with Ben's own reading habits), so that what happens, can happen.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 There is no repeat episode being shown tonight. Nor next week, per listings. That sucks; I use it as a refresher and there were a couple of things I wanted to see again, mostly the shape behind Sun that people think is Claire. best i could find quickly http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/fre...hidden_gurl.jpg ive seen better pics on the net
Cugalabanza Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Maybe the unraveling of which it speaks is Sawyer's / LaFleur's master plan. From the end of last week's ep, it looks like Sayid has plans of his own... namely trying to kill Young Ben. Vouchsafe that, as we've all seen, the island will not allow for this to happen. Which I think will lead to Sawyer, however reluctantly, being the example for how Ben operates (not for nothing that they are both masters of the long con, and then with Sawyer's bit last week about how reading a book each night helps him think weighed in with Ben's own reading habits), so that what happens, can happen. Yes, I think you are right. It's just that I have to laugh sometimes, when I'm struck by what a huge, mind-fugging tapestry it all is.
Cugalabanza Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 best i could find quicklyhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/fre...hidden_gurl.jpg ive seen better pics on the net Oooh, I'm gonna have to check out 35:06 on my dvr when I get home.
PastaJoe Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Just a quick thought before tonight...if Sawyer, Jack, Kate, etc are all in 1977 and sun/frank/ben are in 2007 (their current time), shouldn't sawyer, kate, jack possibly all be on the island in 2007, having lived there for the past 30 years? What if they were killed along with the other Dharma members.
Ramius Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 What if they were killed along with the other Dharma members. What if they prevented the "others" from killing off the DI and this is why sun and frank found DI things in the future? Also, perhaps sun wasn't transported back to 1977 because she wasn't pregnant? Or could it be possible that sun is dr chang's baby? In that vein, she would have already been in 1977 and thus couldn't go back to 1977 because it would create a paradox. This would explain Ben not being transported either.
UConn James Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 What if they prevented the "others" from killing off the DI and this is why sun and frank found DI things in the future? Also, perhaps sun wasn't transported back to 1977 because she wasn't pregnant? Or could it be possible that sun is dr chang's baby? In that vein, she would have already been in 1977 and thus couldn't go back to 1977 because it would create a paradox. This would explain Ben not being transported either. Well, the Purge was in the early '90s, not '77. Also, regarding the bolded section, it would seem that this situation isn't 'illegal' if that's the word. Sawyer saw Kate and Claire in the woods at Aaron's birth during a timeflash. BTW, does anybody know what Sawyer was up to at that time in S1? If the group had time, I'm certain a duplicate November-Sawyer would've been found in the same way there were (eventually) four Martys at the mall in BTTF. Difference with Lost is that they're saying everything that happened, always happened, no changing it --- there were always 2 Sawyers at that time (that we know of, and for however briefly, but whatever he did would be part of the timeline)... whereas, Marty could keep coming back in multiple versions and change the past.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 wasnt crazy about that episode. they got me back at the end though! wonder if the island has young Ben heal and survive?
Hazed and Amuzed Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 HOLY CRAP!!!! Well...that may change some things... He can't be dead or else Sayid couldn't be on the island. I do however think that this will be the prelude to the war between DI and the Alpert's people. Maybe Alpert will witness Ben's "Resurrection" due to island correcting and thus leading him to believe that Ben is "The One". Just a theory...
duey Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 wonder if the island has young Ben heal and survive? There is that possibility...or he knew it was coming and was wearing a vest (I still think Ben is on some kind of loop, so he know's exactly what he's doing and what's going to happen).
The Jokeman Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 HOLY CRAP!!!! Well...that may change some things... My exact thoughts. Honestly think the ending was the part of the episode. As while did fill in some answers Sayid's plane companion not being a US air marshall. Also I don't know why but was expecting the guy who fed Sayid the sugarcube was going to end up being Miles before the reveal.
UConn James Posted March 26, 2009 Posted March 26, 2009 There is that possibility...or he knew it was coming and was wearing a vest (I still think Ben is on some kind of loop, so he know's exactly what he's doing and what's going to happen). I don't know how it's going to work, but I don't see how Young Ben is dead. A) When Old Ben was locked up in the Swan and saw Sayid... well, what was going through his mind there? He did nothing to stop it from happening. He did nothing to stop Sayid from getting on the Ajira flight, tho he doubtless had a good notion that the O6, minus Sun, was going to be going back to '77. He let it happen b/c it had to happen. At least, that's my thoughts. We again see the younger brother taking the place of the older brother in a flashback, as we've seen previously with Eko (and to a lesser degree, with Charlie) that sets him down the course of a life he didn't specifically choose, and one from which he tries to break free from, but fails. Eko, in priest vestments killed the drug dealers, and said right before he died that he was not sorry for anything he did b/c he was doing the best he could. Sayid accepts that he is a killer. I was half-expecting a little half-retribution-look from Sawyer when Sayid was taken to Oldhouse(?). Didn't happen, and then again, it wasn't torture, as such was made out of the "He's our you." Still, they got the truth but couldn't understand it. Nice little girlie-moment b/w Kate and Juliet re: Sawyer... after the tour of the VW garage and tool locations. BTW, since they're in the '70s now, and all... could we get a little Kate&Juliet action? And for all of Sawyer's talk with Jack about having a plan, and that Jack just reacted to situations... 'bout everything Sawyer was doing last week and this week show that he's doing the same damn thing. Early baby? Well, Juliet's a doctor, get her. O6 arrive? Bring 'em some '70s clothes and put them on the roster. Sayid gets captured? Uhh... uhh... talk to him. DI leaders take a vote to kill Sayid? Uhh... go to the jail and let him escape, even tho most fingers would point to you, who was the only person who obviously didn't want to. Fire at New Otehrton? Didn't see that one coming! So far, we're getting a demurring response from Jack. How long does that last? Since Sawyer has given up on Faraday, I'm betting it's Jack that prompts him to poke around at the Orchid site.
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