Lost Season 5 Official Thread!

[PromoTheRobot]

More questions:

 

What is Lapidus a "candidate" for?

 

Is there a connection between Christian's shoes placed on Locke's corpse and Locke 2.0's re-animation?

 

What is the role of the Others? Where do they come from? Are they worshippers of Jacob? In 5 seasons their presence serves no discernable purpose other than to point guns at outsiders.

 

Is there a similar "loophole" rule that prevents Linus and Widemore from killing each other?

 

Does the Smoke monster serve Jacob or his adversary? Whom does "Ricardus" serve? He seems to speak for Jacob yet he apoints others as "leaders." And yet when young Ben is brought to him, he takes him to the Temple to be healed by whom?

 

When Jacob says "What about you?" to Ben, dripping with contempt, what exactly was Jacob telling him? That Ben is a contemptable piece of crap?

 

Is Jacob good at all? Didn't he order the extermination of the Dharma Initiative?

 

I'll say it again. I'll be shocked if Lost is able to tie up all it's loose plot threads in any kind of satisfying manner. And please don't give me the "some things are best left unexplained" tripe. There is a difference between certain mysteries that can be taken at face value, and starting plot threads that just go nowhere.

 

Hey, speaking of "threads", I wonder if there's any connection to the threads Jacob creates to be weaved? Hmmmmm.

 

PTR

[UConn James]

More questions:

 

What is Lapidus a "candidate" for?

 

Is there a connection between Christian's shoes placed on Locke's corpse and Locke 2.0's re-animation?

 

What is the role of the Others? Where do they come from? Are they worshippers of Jacob? In 5 seasons their presence serves no discernable purpose other than to point guns at outsiders.

 

Is there a similar "loophole" rule that prevents Linus and Widemore from killing each other?

 

Does the Smoke monster serve Jacob or his adversary? Whom does "Ricardus" serve? He seems to speak for Jacob yet he apoints others as "leaders." And yet when young Ben is brought to him, he takes him to the Temple to be healed by whom?

 

When Jacob says "What about you?" to Ben, dripping with contempt, what exactly was Jacob telling him? That Ben is a contemptable piece of crap?

 

Is Jacob good at all? Didn't he order the extermination of the Dharma Initiative?

 

I'll say it again. I'll be shocked if Lost is able to tie up all it's loose plot threads in any kind of satisfying manner. And please don't give me the "some things are best left unexplained" tripe. There is a difference between certain mysteries that can be taken at face value, and starting plot threads that just go nowhere.

 

Hey, speaking of "threads", I wonder if there's any connection to the threads Jacob creates to be weaved? Hmmmmm.

 

PTR

 

Right, the Ajira group. We didn't quite found out who they are, but they are friendly to the Others and Jacob. Ilana is working under Jacob, yet she does not know who Ben Linus is. That combined with the "What about me? >>What about you?" exchange gives me ideas. I'm thinking that Jacob never showed himself to Ben b/c he didn't see him as the Others' legitimate leader. In this way, he gives instructions for Ben to fulfill, but doesn't want to know him. No coincidence that Ben's and Locke's plotlines are similar in this way in the 'moebius strip' of S5 tracing closely with S2.

 

But also, as Doc Jensen wrote, it seemed almost like Jacob was in on it... and let Ben kill him. Jacob has a bigger plan, that he formed in anticipation of his adversary's search for a "loophole" which involves those Losties that he touched in the flashbacks. Like the paragraph I quoted from it, the way Jacob said, "They're coming" and how Locke 2.0 got pissed at this bit of info... it's going to be awesome to see where this goes.

 

Promo, if you want to be preemptively disappointed, go ahead. I just think it's a dumb way to take it. It's a story, they're telling it. We can come up with our own guesses, most of which will be wrong. Some things might not be explained, but it's like that in a lot of fiction and it's none the worse for wear. I have trust that they're going to end this in a really cool way. Has anyone heard if JJ Abrams intends to contribute toward the end of the series or is he going to continue to be hands-off and leave it to Darlton?

 

Lapidus being a possible "candidate" is likely similar to how some of the Tailies were selected to join the Others.

 

That bit about "Ricardus" was interesting. We badly need a real Richard flashback ep next season.

 

Jacob's Tapestry.

[extrahammer]

From DarkUFO

 

In the Persona series, there are two primary gods: Philemon and Nyarlathotep. Philemon represents the "good" deity, and Nyar (for short, from here on out) represents "the bad", or evil. While the two gods rarely make appearances in the games, there is one common thread that connects the entire series, and that relates to a sort of bet between the two: "Philemon is conducting an experiment with Nyarlathotep to see if humans can become enlightened being, or if they destroy themselves. While Philemon continues to play by the rules, Nyarlathotep directly manipulates events to insure the destruction of mankind" (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Philemon'>http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Philemon).

 

 

These are the events that transpire throughout the series: the theme of whether or not humanity can, in fact, surpass their mortal limitations, their fears, their vices and sins. The following are excerpts in the functionalities of the two gods: "Nyarlathotep, also known as The Crawling Chaos, is the counterbalance to Philemon in the Persona series of games. Unlike Philemon, Nyarlathotep is able to operate in the outside world and take an active role. Throughout the series he employs the use of Shadow Sides, essentially clones, of characters to accomplish his goals" (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Nyarlathotep).

 

"Philemon is a man, or deity, who wears a butterfly mask. He lives within the realm of the subconscious and he awakens within people the ability to use Personae. Philemon serves as a neutral observer and he watches as things unfold. He cannot directly interfere, however, the party is aided by The Velvet Room, which is filled with his servants" (http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Philemon).

 

Some of the intricacies are obviously not relevant; the ability to use Personae, the butterfly mask, etc. But when you examine the other things, it - in a very strange way - makes sense. Nyar can create clones or apparitions of people to do his own dirty work (Smoke Monster, anyone?). Philemon is more of a spiritual/subconscious god. As it says, he has the ability to awaken "Personae," or otherwise hidden potential in people. In "The Incident," we see Jacob visiting the Losties off island, and during every encounter, he touches them. There was large emphasis on this fact, as the camera usually went in for a quick close-up, or there was a moment of silence during it. I believe Jacob was giving the Losties a special gift, a hidden potential.

 

At the beginning of the episode, there is this conversation between Jacob and the man known as Esau:

 

Esau: Morning.

Jacob: Morning.

Esau: Mind if I join you?

Jacob: Please. Want some fish?

Esau: Thank you. I just ate.

Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship.

Esau: I am. (beat) How did they find the island?

Jacob: You'll have to ask them when they get here.

Esau: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. You're trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

Jacob: You are wrong.

Esau: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. Always ends the same.

Jacob: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that...is just progress.

Esau: You have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

Jacob: Yes.

Esau: One of these days, sooner or later...I'm gonna find a loophole, my friend.

Jacob: Well when you do, I'll be right here.

Esau: Well, it was nice talking to you, Jacob.

Jacob: Nice talking to you, too.

 

The conversation between these two men, or quite possibly these two demi-gods, is very similar to the type of bet between the gods of the Persona series: a bet, or experiment, that humanity can surpass their primal instincts for violence and corruption. Esau (Nyar) perfectly exclaims that he does not believe they can do so. Jacob (Philemon) endeavors to prove him wrong. I therefore believe, and am willing to put forth as fact, that Esau is, in fact, the smoke monster, if not just another manifestation of it.

 

Jacob, on the other hand, is still a bit of a mystery. We can safely assume that he is a sort of demi-god. Likewise, we can confidently confirm that, in the finale, he knew the John Locke that came to visit him was, in fact, the man from the beginning - Esau. Jacob did not seem frightened by this. If anything, he seemed expecting. When Ben does finally stab Jacob, Jacob does not shout out in pain, in anger, or in betrayal. His dying wards seemed to be a warning: "They're coming." Who *they* are is yet to be revealed, but from this I can conclude that Jacob - all along - knew one day that the man known as Esau would kill him, but it seems he did not try to put up any resistance. Jacob wanted to die. Or...maybe...he needed to die.

[Ramius]

But also, as Doc Jensen wrote, it seemed almost like Jacob was in on it... and let Ben kill him. Jacob has a bigger plan, that he formed in anticipation of his adversary's search for a "loophole" which involves those Losties that he touched in the flashbacks. Like the paragraph I quoted from it, the way Jacob said, "They're coming" and how Locke 2.0 got pissed at this bit of info... it's going to be awesome to see where this goes.

 

Kinda like how obi-wan let darth vader cut him down so Luke, Han, and Leia could escape and bring the whole rebel alliance down on the death star.

[duey]

Kinda like how obi-wan let darth vader cut him down so Luke, Han, and Leia could escape and bring the whole rebel alliance down on the death star.

You know...I was kind of thinking the same thing. I think Jacob knows that his "death" will ultimately serve his purpose.

[Andrew in CA]

A few thoughts on this epic finale:

 

The whole time I'm thinking to myself: Just don't end with the explosion. Give us a hint of what comes after that, just don't end with white light or a giant explosion... give us one more scene. And of course, we get the white light. This must be what everyone was feeling after the season 1 finale (I didn't start watching until mid-season 4- I caught up and was therefore able to gratify the hatch mystery immediately).

 

Ben's "....Yes." after Locke asks him if he has to do anything he says is one of the best line-readings I've seen on this show. Just perfect.

 

The opening scene is the most important scene since the "We have to go back!" Season 3 finale final scene. It's a game changer of epic proportions, and is going to be the pivotal point for season 6, IMO. The two men are clearly taking about something greater than just a boat and its consequences. What they are actually talking about, what they can actually control, and what rules they must follow and why, are all up for interpretation and debate.

 

I hope this is the last we see of Rose and Bernard. Their story is nicely wrapped a la Walt as of right now, and frankly there is a plethora of characters to deal with and too many other loose ends to tie up to deal anymore with these minor characters. It was nice to see them, they are fine, let's move on for good. By that same token, I hope Juliet is dead for good. She's a horrible actress and her utility as a character is now complete.

 

What the hell is Lapidus a candidate for? Becoming one of them? Taking Jacob's place, perhaps (though I think this is unlikely)?

 

I'm excited to see Claire again next season. Her whereabouts have been bugging me for awhile. Even if she's dead, I'm really looking forward to finding out what's been up with her.

 

I agree with that Doc Jensen column UConn posted that Jack's main reason for resetting time is that he lost Kate is terrible, corny, and wholly unbelievable. Really, Jack?! Like Sawyer said, just go talk to her!!! I did not believe it and I thought this was the weakest part of the episode.

 

It's clear that whoever this guy is that is able to assume the identity of dead people brought to the island, he gets to retain all their memories as well. He knows all of the Locke/Ben history, as he recounts it all to Ben. Also, I think this anti-Jacob and the Smoke Monster have a relationship/are one in the same.

 

Where the F is Desmond? Is he of any consequence anymore?

 

We know now why "Locke" ordered Alpert to tell time-traveling Locke he had to die.

 

My theory: Ben will be the good guy after it's all said and done. He's been manipulative and ruthless, but he's always claimed he's on the good side. We now know more about Ben and his intentions than just about anyone else on the show. Think about it this way: we know the Ajira people, Ilana and her folk, are allied with Jacob, seemingly for a long time a la those guys from "The Last Crusade" that protect the grail's whereabouts. We know Richard is a friend to these people, if not one of them as well. We know that these people are against Charles Widmore, after we saw them try to convince Miles to join them. We know Widmore and Ben are enemies and claim each other are the bad guys. We know there is an anti-Jacob, or a major foe to Jacob, that wants him dead and is pursuing directly different goals. We also know that Jacob has an investment in the original Oceanic people, seeing as how he's been following them for a very long time, and said "They're coming" right before he died. So, perhaps it's the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but the way I see it, it lines up like this:

 

Side One (assumed Bad Guys): Jacob's enemy, Widmore, Christian Shepard and the ghost people that took over the cabin

Side Two (assumed Good Guys): Jacob, Original Oceanic people, Ajira people (Ilana et al), and... Ben, since he is directly opposed to at least one of the Bad Guys- Widmore.

[SDS]

Kinda like how obi-wan let darth vader cut him down so Luke, Han, and Leia could escape and bring the whole rebel alliance down on the death star.

 

I thought of Vader when they kicked Jacob into the fire....

[syhuang]

I therefore believe, and am willing to put forth as fact, that Esau is, in fact, the smoke monster, if not just another manifestation of it.

 

Likewise, we can confidently confirm that, in the finale, he knew the John Locke that came to visit him was, in fact, the man from the beginning - Esau.

 

I don't think Esau = smoke monster = Locke 2.0. The main reason is that Locke 2.0 doesn't know Ben saw Alex when Ben was surrounded by smoke monster. I don't remember the exact conversation between Locke 2.0 and Ben, Locke 2.0 may not even know Ben met smoke monster under the Temple.

 

I think Esau is Locke 2.0, but not smoke monster.

[extrahammer]

I don't think Esau = smoke monster = Locke 2.0. The main reason is that Locke 2.0 doesn't know Ben saw Alex when Ben was surrounded by smoke monster. I don't remember the exact conversation between Locke 2.0 and Ben, Locke 2.0 may not even know Ben met smoke monster under the Temple.

 

I think Esau is Locke 2.0, but not smoke monster.

 

Bear in mind, earlier this season, when Ben, Locke, and Sun were at the barracks, Ben tried calling the smoke monster and it didn't come. Ben told Sun "whatever comes out of that jungle, i can't control"..... then out walks Locke. Smoke monster never came.

[The Jokeman]

You know...I was kind of thinking the same thing. I think Jacob knows that his "death" will ultimately serve his purpose.

Yeah I don't think Jacob was surprised at all. Yet I can't say I'm angry at Ben either. Despite as outlined it seems like Jacob is the good in the good vs evil force. I really don't have much to add as you guys covered almost everything I was thinking and especially glad someone else noticed Juliette wasn't touched/met by Jacob. Yet one thing didn't see brought up was about the burning of "Jacob's cabin"?

[DrDawkinstein]

Yeah I don't think Jacob was surprised at all. Yet I can't say I'm angry at Ben either. Despite as outlined it seems like Jacob is the good in the good vs evil force. I really don't have much to add as you guys covered almost everything I was thinking and especially glad someone else noticed Juliette wasn't touched/met by Jacob. Yet one thing didn't see brought up was about the burning of "Jacob's cabin"?

 

im not so sure that it was ever Jacob's cabin. More likely where Esau had been kept. Both Ben and Locke, having been played, thought that since the cabin was magical, that it was Jacob. Whoever opened the powder ring around the cabin, let him out.

[Scraps]

I don't think Esau = smoke monster = Locke 2.0. The main reason is that Locke 2.0 doesn't know Ben saw Alex when Ben was surrounded by smoke monster. I don't remember the exact conversation between Locke 2.0 and Ben, Locke 2.0 may not even know Ben met smoke monster under the Temple.

 

I think Esau is Locke 2.0, but not smoke monster.

 

Locke 2.0 didn't know that Jacob lived in the foot of the statue either. Certainly Esau should know that. I'd guess that Locke 2.0 is feigning ignorance in both cases.

[YOOOOOO]

I don't think Esau = smoke monster = Locke 2.0. The main reason is that Locke 2.0 doesn't know Ben saw Alex when Ben was surrounded by smoke monster. I don't remember the exact conversation between Locke 2.0 and Ben, Locke 2.0 may not even know Ben met smoke monster under the Temple.

 

I think Esau is Locke 2.0, but not smoke monster.

 

 

Locke 2.0 didn't know that Jacob lived in the foot of the statue either. Certainly Esau should know that. I'd guess that Locke 2.0 is feigning ignorance in both cases.

 

 

He was obviously acting like he didnt know....he didnt want Richard or Ben picking up on anything that might seem off(especially since Richard upon seeing Locke, noticed something "different" about him)

[SDS]

They foreshadowed Locke 2.0 several times. Ben was stunned that Locke was "alive" and said "you don't get to do that [rise from the dead]. Richard also was stunned at Locke's emergence and seemed incredulous that Locke was somehow alive.

[The Jokeman]

im not so sure that it was ever Jacob's cabin. More likely where Esau had been kept. Both Ben and Locke, having been played, thought that since the cabin was magical, that it was Jacob. Whoever opened the powder ring around the cabin, let him out.

Yet again why was it burned down? As it seems that Esau was held captive there, why wouldn't they want to keep it and try and capture him there again? or perhaps simply out they can't and I just answered my question.

[DrDawkinstein]

Yet again why was it burned down? As it seems that Esau was held captive there, why wouldn't they want to keep it and try and capture him there again? or perhaps simply out they can't and I just answered my question.

 

i still have to rewatch the episode, but didnt they say something along the lines of "someone else is/has been using it"? possibly claire? maybe if its occupied they cant trap him there. or maybe once someone else has used it, its unusable. your guess is as good as mine.

[linksfiend]

A few thoughts after reading this thread and watching the finale again last night:

 

When Ben is giving his "What About Me?" speech he says something like: "And when he asks to see you, he gets marched straight up here as if he were Moses." Then the screen shows Locke 2.0 making a little smirk. I'm not sure what to make of this Moses reference yet, and how it fits into the Jacob/Esau mythicism, but I thought it was noteworthy.

 

 

I therefore believe, and am willing to put forth as fact, that Esau is, in fact, the smoke monster, if not just another manifestation of it.

 

Jazzy - You could be on to something here. There's a part in the penultimate scene, I think where Jacob says "I see you found your loophole" then they cut to Locke 2.0 where I faintly heard that trumpet-like sound you hear when the smoke monster attacks.

 

I agree with that Doc Jensen column UConn posted that Jack's main reason for resetting time is that he lost Kate is terrible, corny, and wholly unbelievable. Really, Jack?! Like Sawyer said, just go talk to her!!! I did not believe it and I thought this was the weakest part of the episode.

 

Later, when talking to Kate, Jack says about exploding the thermonuclear device that: "nothing in my life ever felt so right." This indicates that Jack doesn't fully understand his role and that destiny or fate is exerting itself.

[extrahammer]

Jazzy - You could be on to something here. There's a part in the penultimate scene, I think where Jacob says "I see you found your loophole" then they cut to Locke 2.0 where I faintly heard that trumpet-like sound you hear when the smoke monster attacks.

 

I'm gonna go back and watch for that..

[duey]

Hey...anyone else think that Adam and Eve (the two skeletons in the cave from S.1) are Rose and Bernard?

[UConn James]

Hey...anyone else think that Adam and Eve (the two skeletons in the cave from S.1) are Rose and Bernard?

 

That's kinda been the widespread running theory for ~ the past season and a half. Darlton said in an interview to be careful about jumping to conclusions, but I think the finale kind of cemented it. This speculation first started in S2 where we found out Bernard was white (b/c of the black and white stones found with the remains) and their storyline with Rose saying that she never wanted to leave the island and Bernard thence saying he wouldn't leave either. The finale shows them living out this intention. All goes back to what happened with the bomb, if it caused a time-travel to 2007 (I don't see how they won't do this), how far its effects are radiating....

 

Then again, they could pull a fast one and make it any combination of the love quadrangle that's been built up w/ Jack, Swayer & Kate, Juliet. Wouldn't that be something if the bones are Jack and Kate... who were the ones who discovered/investigated them?