HOF a lock now?

[Tcali]

Do you think cements his status in the HOF regardless of the outcome of the SB? There is no question if he wins the SB, but what if they lose...is he still a lock?

 

I think he was alredy deserving, I mean he is the 4th highest rated passer of all time. I know he has had a lot of talent to throw too, but so did Aikman, Montanna, Young, Manning, etc, so that shouldnt be held against him. I mean, the guy throws a great ball, constantly hits players in stride, gets balls into tight places, and is just really accurate.

probbly

[Brandon]

I don't know if he's a lock, but I think he now has a very good chance of making the HOF. He now has three Super Bowl appearances to his credit with at least one win and at least one Super Bowl MVP award. Both teams he's led to the Super Bowl were longtime league doormats prior (and the Rams have returned to being doormats since). Although he doesn't have quite as many attempts as most other HOF QBs, statistically he's as good as any QB who has ever played the game when that relative lack of attempts is factored in. That said, if he plays another season, he should eclipse both 30,000 career passing yards and 200 TD passes sometime in the first half of next year, so his HOF resume is by no means weak in that department.

 

The counter argument is that he had that five year stretch in the middle of his career where he was basically a spot starter for the Cardinals and Giants, but I think the last two years, but this one in particular, have been his redemption. He's thrown for 8,000 yards the last two seasons and 57 TD passes compared to 31 INTs. He's proven that he can still play at a very high level and lead a perennial loser to a division championship and a Super Bowl. Incidentally, aside from that 2002 season where he was never healthy, he was never really bad. He wasn't great during that stretch by any means, but not bad, either. In the end, I think he's just a guy who caught some bad breaks in the middle of his career, but who has fought his way back to the top.

 

So yes, I would cast my vote in favor of his HOF bid. Even though he's taken the long road there, he's proven it in my eyes. I think he certainly deserves it.

[Alphadawg7]

I don't know if he's a lock, but I think he now has a very good chance of making the HOF. He now has three Super Bowl appearances to his credit with at least one win and at least one Super Bowl MVP award. Both teams he's led to the Super Bowl were longtime league doormats prior (and the Rams have returned to being doormats since). Although he doesn't have quite as many attempts as most other HOF QBs, statistically he's as good as any QB who has ever played the game when that relative lack of attempts is factored in. That said, if he plays another season, he should eclipse both 30,000 career passing yards and 200 TD passes sometime in the first half of next year, so his HOF resume is by no means weak in that department.

 

The counter argument is that he had that five year stretch in the middle of his career where he was basically a spot starter for the Cardinals and Giants, but I think the last two years, but this one in particular, have been his redemption. He's thrown for 8,000 yards the last two seasons and 57 TD passes compared to 31 INTs. He's proven that he can still play at a very high level and lead a perennial loser to a division championship and a Super Bowl. Incidentally, aside from that 2002 season where he was never healthy, he was never really bad. He wasn't great during that stretch by any means, but not bad, either. In the end, I think he's just a guy who caught some bad breaks in the middle of his career, but who has fought his way back to the top.

 

So yes, I would cast my vote in favor of his HOF bid. Even though he's taken the long road there, he's proven it in my eyes. I think he certainly deserves it.

 

 

That was a very good post...

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

Honestly... the fact that we're even discussing the Arizona Cardinals being IN the Superbowl pretty much seals the deal in my mind. Just take that in for a second... the Arizona Cardinals are playing in the Superbowl.

 

Kurt's a good guy on and off the field, and he sure pissed me off when we played against him this year. We couldn't even slow him down. The only knock on him was length of career since he got such a late start at it when he burst onto the scene with the Rams. But now he's been doing it for 10 years... and got the RAMS and the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. That alone is astonishing... I'm still taking that in.

[Alphadawg7]

Honestly... the fact that we're even discussing the Arizona Cardinals being IN the Superbowl pretty much seals the deal in my mind. Just take that in for a second... the Arizona Cardinals are playing in the Superbowl.

 

Kurt's a good guy on and off the field, and he sure pissed me off when we played against him this year. We couldn't even slow him down. The only knock on him was length of career since he got such a late start at it when he burst onto the scene with the Rams. But now he's been doing it for 10 years... and got the RAMS and the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. That alone is astonishing... I'm still taking that in.

 

Isnt that crazy...I mean before Warner on these two teams, the thought of them in Super Bowl was hilarious. The year Warner took over the Rams, he was the only significant change from the previous year and he came out and threw I believe 3 or mor TD's in his first 4 starts or something like that and took them to a Super Bowl victory. He single handedly turned both teams around.

[Tcali]

Honestly... the fact that we're even discussing the Arizona Cardinals being IN the Superbowl pretty much seals the deal in my mind. Just take that in for a second... the Arizona Cardinals are playing in the Superbowl.

 

Kurt's a good guy on and off the field, and he sure pissed me off when we played against him this year. We couldn't even slow him down. The only knock on him was length of career since he got such a late start at it when he burst onto the scene with the Rams. But now he's been doing it for 10 years... and got the RAMS and the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. That alone is astonishing... I'm still taking that in.

that would be like getting the Bills and the Lions into the superbowl

[Steely Dan]

i think he's probably in, the numbers are there, he has a super bowl win under his belt and is now playing in his third

 

whats going to be interesting is will the Cards give him the new contract he wants considering he is a free agent, his age and the fact that they have Leinart on the bench

 

I hope he retires and goes out on top.

 

 

God willing, yes.

 

 

I've been on Warner's jock all year, so yes he should be a first ballot Hall of Fame player. Plus if he comes back next year, and that's still up in the air, and the Cardinals improve on offense even more then Kurt will go in.

 

Warner is the one is who got the Cardinals to the SB. The Cardinal defense didn't get on 3-and-out the whole game did they?

 

No way first ballot.

 

 

Isnt that crazy...I mean before Warner on these two teams, the thought of them in Super Bowl was hilarious. The year Warner took over the Rams, he was the only significant change from the previous year and he came out and threw I believe 3 or mor TD's in his first 4 starts or something like that and took them to a Super Bowl victory. He single handedly turned both teams around.

 

Great players elevate the players around them. I think he definitely fits into that category.

 

BTW, where are the people who said Buffalo was idiotic for passing on Leinart?

[silvermike]

BTW, where are the people who said Buffalo was idiotic for passing on Leinart?

 

There was definitely something wrong with Leinart. Maybe just didn't have the heart to play in the NFL. If Kurt retires, we'll see if he's gotten his head together. Marv did say they were looking at Cutler as far as QBs went, if they decided to go in that direction. Passing on him seems like a bigger problem right now.

[BuffOrange]

There are some good points in this thread. The football HOF is just a lot different than baseball in that it's much less statistically driven. Super Bowls matter. A lot. I don't think it should be that way but that's just how it is. We could argue forever about whether he deserves it for reasons mentioned.

Realistically he got in today. 3 appearances with two teams, 1 win, 2 MVP's. Definitely an unusual career with a hole in the middle but his peaks are too high to ignore at such a crucial position; and of course he has the #'s to boot.

[Alphadawg7]

There was definitely something wrong with Leinart. Maybe just didn't have the heart to play in the NFL. If Kurt retires, we'll see if he's gotten his head together. Marv did say they were looking at Cutler as far as QBs went, if they decided to go in that direction. Passing on him seems like a bigger problem right now.

 

Yeah, I remember that...Cutler had the bigger ARM needed to play in windy Buffalo. I live in LA so saw a lot of his games, so I was hoping the Bills would pass on Leinart as I just didnt think he had the ARM strength for Buffalo and I wondered how is laid back attitiude would translate at the next level.

[maverick544]

I guess all those years of throwing rolls of toilet paper 3 eisles down in to grocery carts at Albertsons worked out for the guy. Hell Yeah, he gets into the HOF win or lose!

[gus2378]

I can't get past a 6-year stretch where a starting QB went 13-29 as a starter ... But if I give you that last year was great, let's split his career in half ... I'll give you 5 great years, but you can't just ignore 8-23 as a starter for five years in the middle of his career ... yeah he couldn't stay healthy ... isn't that a pretty improtant trait for a franchise QB? Even in one of his great years (2000) he started only 11 games and threw 18 INTs ...

 

Point is, if you put him in despite those numbers, Terrell Davis needs to go in too, immediately. His first four seasons were almost unprecedented, he won Super Bowls on a team that could never get over the hump without him, and he was an MVP. And he never had bad years, he was just unlucky and got hurt. You don't have to ignore anything.

 

Warner is a great story and a great player, but based on the standards set up till now, I just don't see how he can get in. When he was good he was very good, but when he was bad he was really bad too, and it's about even.

 

The more I look at it, the more I think I am not just playing devil's advocate. I just don't think he deserves it. I would obviously be out-voted, and that's cool ...

[silvermike]

Was he MVP his year? Or did it go to Faulk or something?

[lets_go_bills]

He's revitalized this franchise. He looked washed up in New York but he's brought this team to the Super Bowl. Mind you, it helps when you have both Fitz and Q to throw to. If the Cards win the Super Bowl and Warner has a big game, garnering MVP honours, I say his a lock for Canton. Probably not first ballot, but he should get in. Classic rags to riches story: the guy was bagging groceries, plays in the Arena league, NFL Europe, then Rams MVP and SB winner, now this. Great stuff.

[folz]

Honestly... the fact that we're even discussing the Arizona Cardinals being IN the Superbowl pretty much seals the deal in my mind. Just take that in for a second... the Arizona Cardinals are playing in the Superbowl.

 

Isnt that crazy...I mean before Warner on these two teams, the thought of them in Super Bowl was hilarious. The year Warner took over the Rams, he was the only significant change from the previous year and he came out and threw I believe 3 or mor TD's in his first 4 starts or something like that and took them to a Super Bowl victory. He single handedly turned both teams around.

 

 

I'm actually surprised that so many people think he's a lock. I'd say he has a chance but in no way is a lock.

 

He's been playing amazing and the way he handled the blitz and got the ball out to his receivers on the run

today was impressive, but by no means has he single handedly turned the Cardinals around. Right now he has

imo the best receiver in the NFL and when not injured probably the 3rd or 4th best receiver as well. Their defense

has also played some great ball and they have a head coach in his second season. Somehow, I think the coaches

must have had something to do with this turn around as well. Alot went into the Cards being where they are, not just Warner (who I do agree is a big part of it though).

 

Warner does not rank in the top 20 all time for completions, yards, or TDs. I just have to agree with gus2378, I don't think 4 great seasons is necessarily enough to get in the HOF...It seems like to get into the Hall you have to have at least one of three things: top (all-time) stats, consistently good play over a long career, and/or you changed the game in some significant way. I don't think Warner, right now, meets any of that criteria. Superbowls definitely help and hurt candidates, but I don't think going to 3 Superbowls automatically makes you a lock.

 

Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Phil Simms, and Jim Plunkett were all Superbowl MVPs and Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler, and Jim McMahon all also won Superbowls...but I don't see any of those guys making the Hall...there are only 29 QBs in the HOF from the entire history of the NFL...I've been watching football since the mid-1970s and in those 30+ years only 12 QBs were considered HOF material...is Warner an excellent QB, yes, but is he in that company? I'm not so sure.

[DazedandConfused]

The key to whether he is a lock or not is pretty much dependent upon who will be the alternative options at QB based on when he retires. Folks seem to want to treat HOF membership as being determined by the stats a player puts up, but this view forgets:

 

1. This is a popularity contest determined by a select group of voters and not by a clear set of objective standards. Sure stats are crucial as this makes up a big part of how those voters will feel, but it presumes a bit too much to claim that he is a lock until we see how the rest of his career goes, whether he sucks up in an appropriate way to voters, and factors such as what happens to him in retirement (OJ has the stats to clearly belong in, but if voters were taking a crack at voting him in now then stats be darned).

 

2. Its the hall of FAME and not the hall of STATS. The victory today and him becoming the only QB besides Craig Morton to make it to the SB with two separate teams and also him making it back after a 7 year hiatus are simply accomplishments that add to his FAME.

 

My guess is that he is in, but folks need to put this in the context of reality if they are gonna make bold predictions.

[Buftex]

I can't get past a 6-year stretch where a starting QB went 13-29 as a starter ... But if I give you that last year was great, let's split his career in half ... I'll give you 5 great years, but you can't just ignore 8-23 as a starter for five years in the middle of his career ... yeah he couldn't stay healthy ... isn't that a pretty improtant trait for a franchise QB? Even in one of his great years (2000) he started only 11 games and threw 18 INTs ...

 

Point is, if you put him in despite those numbers, Terrell Davis needs to go in too, immediately. His first four seasons were almost unprecedented, he won Super Bowls on a team that could never get over the hump without him, and he was an MVP. And he never had bad years, he was just unlucky and got hurt. You don't have to ignore anything.

 

Warner is a great story and a great player, but based on the standards set up till now, I just don't see how he can get in. When he was good he was very good, but when he was bad he was really bad too, and it's about even.

 

The more I look at it, the more I think I am not just playing devil's advocate. I just don't think he deserves it. I would obviously be out-voted, and that's cool ...

 

As BuffOrange pointed out, the NFL hall of fame has as much to do with "moments" as it does a cumulation of stats. I happen to think you could make a good case for Terrell Davis, and I also happen to think Warner belongs in the HOF.

 

Let me ask you Gus, take Joe Namaths' Super Bowl win away from him, does he belong in the HOF? You would have a tough time making an argument for him. He is in (and he belongs IMO) mainly for the significance of the one Super Bowl season that he did manage. His career numbers aren't really all that amazing, certainly nothing approaching Warner. I know, they are different eras. Also, Warner, if I am not mistaken, is the first QB to lead two separate franchises to a Super Bowl. That is a significant achievement. His history is also significant (stock boy called into action, yadda yadda yadda...)

 

Warren Moon made it into the HOF upon his first year of eligibility...he had some horrible stretches in his career, and retired somewhere near the top of the record books for fumbles.

 

Also, while I am not positive, I would be willing to wager that Brett Favre (who, despite how folks may feel about him, is a first chance HOFer) has had stretches similar to Warner's 17 ints in 11 games...

[buckeyemike]

I say Warner gets in the HOF, but he's not a first-ballot. He will have to wait.

 

Warner is one of only a handful of players to win two MVP awards. His comeback, as well as the way he started his career, is what they write scripts about in Hollywood.

 

Can you name the only other QB to lead two different teams to the Super Bowl? He's not in the Hall. It's Craig Morton (Dallas in SB V, Denver in SB XII).

[gus2378]

As BuffOrange pointed out, the NFL hall of fame has as much to do with "moments" as it does a cumulation of stats. I happen to think you could make a good case for Terrell Davis, and I also happen to think Warner belongs in the HOF.

 

Let me ask you Gus, take Joe Namaths' Super Bowl win away from him, does he belong in the HOF? You would have a tough time making an argument for him. He is in (and he belongs IMO) mainly for the significance of the one Super Bowl season that he did manage. His career numbers aren't really all that amazing, certainly nothing approaching Warner. I know, they are different eras. Also, Warner, if I am not mistaken, is the first QB to lead two separate franchises to a Super Bowl. That is a significant achievement. His history is also significant (stock boy called into action, yadda yadda yadda...)

 

Warren Moon made it into the HOF upon his first year of eligibility...he had some horrible stretches in his career, and retired somewhere near the top of the record books for fumbles.

 

Also, while I am not positive, I would be willing to wager that Brett Favre (who, despite how folks may feel about him, is a first chance HOFer) has had stretches similar to Warner's 17 ints in 11 games...

Namath was the dominant passer of his time ... the numbers will never measure up to today, but in the 60s and early 70s, he was dominant compared to his peers. Add in the big moment you are talking about and he gets in, but that was a HUGE moment ... that was the AFL beating the NFL ... In most people's eyes, that was the Buffalo Bison's beating the Yankees in the World Series. Yeah, Warner got to the SB with teams that were usually bad, but they were on a level playing field with everyone else ... and that Rams team was LOADED, not like he carried them there himself. Warner is a great story, but as a PLAYER he was not that much different than a lot of QBs in his era. there are a lot of QBs with a couple 4,000 yard seasons who are not getting in the HOF because the rest of their careers were not good enough. I'm sure Favre did have a stretch of 17 INTs in 11 games ... but I promise you he never had a stretch of 8-23 over 5 years as a starter ... he had one losing season his whole career.

I am not saying his 5 good years are not HOF material. They absolutely are. But the other five seasons, frankly, SUCK. They are not average. They SUCK. How can you ignore 5 seasons out of a 10-season career?

[Brandon]

Warner does not rank in the top 20 all time for completions, yards, or TDs. I just have to agree with gus2378, I don't think 4 great seasons is necessarily enough to get in the HOF...It seems like to get into the Hall you have to have at least one of three things: top (all-time) stats, consistently good play over a long career, and/or you changed the game in some significant way. I don't think Warner, right now, meets any of that criteria. Superbowls definitely help and hurt candidates, but I don't think going to 3 Superbowls automatically makes you a lock.

 

One point I'd have to make regarding the stats: if you pro-rate the numbers on a per-attempt or per game basis, Warner is as good as anyone. He's the league's all-time leader with 260 passing yards per game, for instance. He's 5th all-time in yards per attempt, 2nd all-time with 65.5% completion rate, and 4th all-time in passer rating. He's thrown for a little less than 29,000 yards and 182 TD passes. He could conceivably reach the same statistical level as Steve Young, Troy Aikman and even our own Jim Kelly in just one more season. All of those guys are in the low/mid 30k range in yardage and Kelly and Young threw 237 and 232 TDs in their careers, respectively (Aikman threw 162).

 

The point is, if he continues playing for another season or two and maintains a high level of play, I don't think the statistical argument will hold water and may not even now. His statistical resume is already a fairly strong one and combined with the Super Bowl appearances, I think a very strong case can be made for his HOF candidacy.