Mike Gandy

[colin]

So how do you get a good o-line when you trade away its best performer and replace him with either an unproven rookie or some other cast off from another team?

 

Then your next line of thinking is that "the stand out talent" of one or two guys is not important. So you suggest putting average or less than average talent across the line is the solution? This says to me that you believe the Bills are better off diluting their total bucket of talent. Sorry just not an outcome I can support. Why not get more of the line to have talent on Peters level, thereby raising the skill level not reducing it?

 

Your skill players do not do much good if your QB is running for his life or on his back most of the time. Nor can running backs be consistent if they have no gaps to get through. We've had substandard line play on both sides of the ball for nearly a decade now. It's high time that this is changed and that change will not be accomplished by trading away your best line player. I wish I had the quote handy but a couple of years ago (before Peters, Walker and Dockery) Bellicheat literally called the Bills o-line a joke. They were.

 

The issue here is not money. The Bills were well under the cap last year. They have plenty of room to sign the guy to an appropriate contract and then move on.

 

The other point lost in this whole exchange is - what superstar is going to come to Buffalo if they have the reputation for underpaying or trading away their best guys? Get a grip. Peters is not a malcontent the guy was trying to get his due on payday. If I was in his shoes I would have done the same. You are only in your prime years once in the NFL. You are also one play away from no longer having a career. The Bills tried to be cheap and he called them on it. So what? Get over it and move on.

 

you are making this much harder than it needs to be.

 

we need our o line to play well. we don't need peters for that. he helps with that, but if we have any other serviceable guy at lt and a better c/rg we can be a better or at least equal line. with the picks we get for jp and the extra money we can sign very good players at de, wr, te, and lb. along with our draft that will make us a much better team.

 

peters IS a malcontent, he held out for christ's sake, what more does he have to do? i'd like to have him and other upgrades, but like most any player he is totally replaceable and his injuries and attitude and hold out demands more than offset his play, which i don't feel is anywhere near crucial for us to win.

[BuffaloBill]

you are making this much harder than it needs to be.

 

we need our o line to play well. we don't need peters for that. he helps with that, but if we have any other serviceable guy at lt and a better c/rg we can be a better or at least equal line. with the picks we get for jp and the extra money we can sign very good players at de, wr, te, and lb. along with our draft that will make us a much better team.

 

peters IS a malcontent, he held out for christ's sake, what more does he have to do? i'd like to have him and other upgrades, but like most any player he is totally replaceable and his injuries and attitude and hold out demands more than offset his play, which i don't feel is anywhere near crucial for us to win.

 

 

This is getting even better. Now we need a "serviceable" LT, a c and a rg how exactly do we address all of these needs in one off season? (BTW you forgot to mention back up QB) These three positions on top of de, wr, te and lb. so there are now seven positions of "need." We get two extra draft picks (for sake of argument) for Peters so you take care of two of your needs (I assume) through these picks. Let's again say - for sake of argument - that history holds true - I will be kind here - only one of your two Jason Peters draft picks based on historical odds is likely to pan out. This means you have taken a position where you did not have a need, created one, and addressed one through the draft. By doing this it seems to me that at best you come out even in the exchange.

 

Setting aside cap impact for the sake of minimizing complication - Now let's say best case scenario here - you trade Peters and get a "serviceable" LT. You still argue that the line needs a rg and c. So let's for the sake of argument assume these are the positions you draft with the picks you get from Peters. Have you looked at any data that shows how likely this is to work out? Everybody loves to cherry pick by saying - wow look at this team or that team that drafted so and so and how much better off they are. They all love to forget the other teams that did not pick so and so, instead they picked Draft Bust his twin brother.

 

If your argument is that the Bills need draft picks then look at trading a combination of current picks to get an extra third (which is what you end up with if you use one of your JP picks in the first round to select his replacement). Actually it is not hard to figure out how you might do this. There is a simple point chart, generally accepted across the league that values each pick.

 

NFL Draft Point Value Chart

 

If you really want to trade a player - look elsewhere on the roster. I've said in other posts that Roscoe Parrish might be an interesting one to put on the block. We have ample skills in return men and he is a dud as a WR. Use him for trade bait along with moving your picks around to score another draft choice.

 

I swear that this is the last post I offer on this topic. It is worn out. Besides the Bills are highly unlikely to trade him so what's the point?

[murra]

you are making this much harder than it needs to be.

 

we need our o line to play well. we don't need peters for that. he helps with that, but if we have any other serviceable guy at lt and a better c/rg we can be a better or at least equal line. with the picks we get for jp and the extra money we can sign very good players at de, wr, te, and lb. along with our draft that will make us a much better team.

 

peters IS a malcontent, he held out for christ's sake, what more does he have to do? i'd like to have him and other upgrades, but like most any player he is totally replaceable and his injuries and attitude and hold out demands more than offset his play, which i don't feel is anywhere near crucial for us to win.

 

Bingo. What BuffaloBill continually is failing to knowledge, is the possibility of the new high picks have a great upside, that may be greater than our need for a "pro-bowl" LT. I used the Gandy example, but unfortunately it didn't go over too well, but the point was that a serviceable LT with other line upgrades will improve the line without Peters, and perhaps fill some other needs as well.

 

Unfortunately it's difficult for some people to wish to lose Peters, because they've been told by the Associated Press that he's our best player.

[BillsWatch]

Glenn, trade him and do what? What would Dick Levy do with more picks? Are you firmly convinced that he would make wise choices with them? In the last 3 drafts the Bills have drafted a blocker in the 5th and a 7th rounds. Two late picks in 3 years Glenn! How would they replace Peters?

 

I would much rather the Bills hold onto one of their very few talented players on the roster at a position that is extremly important and very hard to fill.

 

Talented players who are not willing to work as part of a team and want to be paid first then perform are not worth investing in. And I do not believe front office is incapable of drafting blockers as some believe but choose to invest money in experienced players instead believing improvement would come quicker that way.

 

And I have no idea who "Dick Levy" is Bill from Greater NJ.

[Cornerville]

How about that? Weapons on the field and strong QB play MAKE OL better!!!!!!!!!!!

 

OBD, are you listening!?!?!?!?!

[lets_go_bills]

Gandy.

 

Warner's veteran saavy and quick release coupled with two of the best WRs in football to throw to can make almost any O-Lineman look good. Plus he's being coached up by Russ Grimm, and that helps a lot.

[BillsWatch]

I think Warner's abilities increase how well line plays like Flutie's did. With a much less mobile, gun slinger behind line (aka Marino) Arizona would be doing so well.

[Dibs]

What? Dude. If you can get a 1st and a 3rd, which is not unrealistic at all...and you don't take it, then you're stupid.

Seems to me that people are under-valuing the benefits of a top LT.......and are over-valuing the value of draft picks.

 

Having a top LT is very highly sought after. Only the QB position is considered(generally) to be of more importance with perhaps only DE considered to be of equivalent value. Even if Peters settles back into 'just' a very good LT we'd want to be thinking very hard about letting him go(very good-great LTs are very hard to find).

 

The concept that we can simply use a 1st round pick to replace him is a massive gamble. LTs have a similar bust rate in the 1st round to most positions......around 50% Add to that the concept that virtually no LTs drafted outside of the top 8 become truly 'great' at the position(which Peters is heralded as having potential to do)......and the gamble looks even worse.

 

If Peters gets back to playing at his 2007 level he is worth $10-11mil. The only benefit trading him could possibly have is saving some $$$ for the short term(which we have plenty of cap room to cope with)......and if his replacement did develop(usually taking a little time), his contract extension would come early & would be bound to be more than Peters by then anyway(salary increases).

 

Worst case scenario(with a 50-50 chance of occurring)......we trade him.....the replacement 1st rounder is a bust.....and we don't minimally have a good LT for at least 5 more seasons. Even if the player drafted pans out, it is not likely he develops into what we saw from Peters in 2007.

 

In short, trading Peters would be unwise.

[colin]

This is getting even better. Now we need a "serviceable" LT, a c and a rg how exactly do we address all of these needs in one off season? (BTW you forgot to mention back up QB) These three positions on top of de, wr, te and lb. so there are now seven positions of "need." We get two extra draft picks (for sake of argument) for Peters so you take care of two of your needs (I assume) through these picks. Let's again say - for sake of argument - that history holds true - I will be kind here - only one of your two Jason Peters draft picks based on historical odds is likely to pan out. This means you have taken a position where you did not have a need, created one, and addressed one through the draft. By doing this it seems to me that at best you come out even in the exchange.

 

Setting aside cap impact for the sake of minimizing complication - Now let's say best case scenario here - you trade Peters and get a "serviceable" LT. You still argue that the line needs a rg and c. So let's for the sake of argument assume these are the positions you draft with the picks you get from Peters. Have you looked at any data that shows how likely this is to work out? Everybody loves to cherry pick by saying - wow look at this team or that team that drafted so and so and how much better off they are. They all love to forget the other teams that did not pick so and so, instead they picked Draft Bust his twin brother.

 

If your argument is that the Bills need draft picks then look at trading a combination of current picks to get an extra third (which is what you end up with if you use one of your JP picks in the first round to select his replacement). Actually it is not hard to figure out how you might do this. There is a simple point chart, generally accepted across the league that values each pick.

 

NFL Draft Point Value Chart

 

If you really want to trade a player - look elsewhere on the roster. I've said in other posts that Roscoe Parrish might be an interesting one to put on the block. We have ample skills in return men and he is a dud as a WR. Use him for trade bait along with moving your picks around to score another draft choice.

 

I swear that this is the last post I offer on this topic. It is worn out. Besides the Bills are highly unlikely to trade him so what's the point?

 

jesus dood, you are such an self important amateur. you will be kind here? are you a highly accomplished nfl gm? no, you are a guy with a keyboard just like me.

 

instead of coming up with a million smoke screens pretending to be so knowledgeable about the unknown, just point out the salient point of disagreement: you think peters is a great important player for our team and should be paid top 3 o lineman money in spite of his holding out, injuries, and public statements. i think he is a very talented lineman that at times is great, but at other times is far from great, is clearly a malcontent, and simply is not worth that large of a contract.

 

so if he is gonna hold out and get hurt and not be consistent in protecting the passer, i think we don't want to pay him that kind of scratch. so what do we do with him? well, we trade him to get something for him, it's that simple.

 

you talk about creating a need, but if he holds out again, he is creating the need. you can't count on a guy because the chubby chasers on the board have decided to crown him the king of the fat asses. if he holds out again he is making it very very clear he is not a team guy. eff him.

[C.Biscuit97]

jesus dood, you are such an self important amateur. you will be kind here? are you a highly accomplished nfl gm? no, you are a guy with a keyboard just like me.

 

instead of coming up with a million smoke screens pretending to be so knowledgeable about the unknown, just point out the salient point of disagreement: you think peters is a great important player for our team and should be paid top 3 o lineman money in spite of his holding out, injuries, and public statements. i think he is a very talented lineman that at times is great, but at other times is far from great, is clearly a malcontent, and simply is not worth that large of a contract.

 

so if he is gonna hold out and get hurt and not be consistent in protecting the passer, i think we don't want to pay him that kind of scratch. so what do we do with him? well, we trade him to get something for him, it's that simple.

 

you talk about creating a need, but if he holds out again, he is creating the need. you can't count on a guy because the chubby chasers on the board have decided to crown him the king of the fat asses. if he holds out again he is making it very very clear he is not a team guy. eff him.

 

 

So Peters is a malcontent because he upset that guys like Chris Kelsey and Derrick Dockery make more money than him??? Before this season, has anyone heard anything that ever question Peters or his character? Now he is a malcontent???

 

And the only people who seem to take issue with Peters is Bills fans. NFL players and coaches along with media members seem to think he is a very good player. Get him a new contract and have him ready for all the offseason activities. Plus, with the salary cap going up, his deal will be a bargain in a few years. I'd rather overpay a offensive lineman than a receiver or corner back.

[colin]

Seems to me that people are under-valuing the benefits of a top LT.......and are over-valuing the value of draft picks.

 

Having a top LT is very highly sought after. Only the QB position is considered(generally) to be of more importance with perhaps only DE considered to be of equivalent value. Even if Peters settles back into 'just' a very good LT we'd want to be thinking very hard about letting him go(very good-great LTs are very hard to find).

 

The concept that we can simply use a 1st round pick to replace him is a massive gamble. LTs have a similar bust rate in the 1st round to most positions......around 50% Add to that the concept that virtually no LTs drafted outside of the top 8 become truly 'great' at the position(which Peters is heralded as having potential to do)......and the gamble looks even worse.

 

If Peters gets back to playing at his 2007 level he is worth $10-11mil. The only benefit trading him could possibly have is saving some $$$ for the short term(which we have plenty of cap room to cope with)......and if his replacement did develop(usually taking a little time), his contract extension would come early & would be bound to be more than Peters by then anyway(salary increases).

 

Worst case scenario(with a 50-50 chance of occurring)......we trade him.....the replacement 1st rounder is a bust.....and we don't minimally have a good LT for at least 5 more seasons. Even if the player drafted pans out, it is not likely he develops into what we saw from Peters in 2007.

 

In short, trading Peters would be unwise.

 

you are assuming we can just pay him and he will be good for us. if it is true that he is going to continue to be a holdout risk, a malcontent, and injured and out of shape, then we really don't want him on our team.

 

 

also, i think the point of this whole thread is that super star o linemen aren't the key -- super star players on D and scoring touchdowns is the key, along with a good line on o. it would be nice to have a bunch of probowlers on the o line, but that didn't help the cowboys last season, nor did it make the star studded new england line good enough to stop the giants pass rush, and the giants zero pro bowler line last year didn't look too bad.

 

better athletes play on the d line than o, it has always been that way. a super star on the d line can cause disruption helping the other guys and get to the ball carrier by himself. a great o lineman can possibly neutralize a great d lineman, but all 5 have to do their jobs for the line to be a success.

 

we need a good line of 5 guys, not any particular super stud, especially one who wants to hold out and hurt himself and the team.

[colin]

So Peters is a malcontent because he upset that guys like Chris Kelsey and Derrick Dockery make more money than him??? Before this season, has anyone heard anything that ever question Peters or his character? Now he is a malcontent???

 

And the only people who seem to take issue with Peters is Bills fans. NFL players and coaches along with media members seem to think he is a very good player. Get him a new contract and have him ready for all the offseason activities. Plus, with the salary cap going up, his deal will be a bargain in a few years. I'd rather overpay a offensive lineman than a receiver or corner back.

 

he held out and refused to even talk to the team, he was under a contract he agreed to, not franchised or anything, and had one good year.

 

now he has one good year and one pretty good year (although he got to the pro bowl). our o still sucks and we need playmakers desperately.

 

i want a good line as bad as anyone, but i know enough to know that some good linemen alone won't make an O work, we need guys scoring touchdowns. if trading peters gets us some of those, i'd do it.

[C.Biscuit97]

he held out and refused to even talk to the team, he was under a contract he agreed to, not franchised or anything, and had one good year.

 

now he has one good year and one pretty good year (although he got to the pro bowl). our o still sucks and we need playmakers desperately.

 

i want a good line as bad as anyone, but i know enough to know that some good linemen alone won't make an O work, we need guys scoring touchdowns. if trading peters gets us some of those, i'd do it.

 

 

Fair points all around, but Kurt Warner makes that line better than it is. Guys like Losman and Rob Johnson make a line look a million times worse than it is. Trent is much better at avoiding sacks but there were times when he held the ball too long. And a huge part of why he feels so comfortable in the pocket is because he has a pretty much lockdown LT.

 

I just see no way this team improves by trading one of the best LTs. The key to great line play is continuity (there's that magic word). The line suffered this year because of Peters' holdout and injuries. By the end of the year, they were playing their best football of the year. Let's have all the guys ready in training camp, with an upgrade at center, playing together for a third year.

[Bill from NYC]

I just see no way this team improves by trading one of the best LTs. The key to great line play is continuity (there's that magic word). The line suffered this year because of Peters' holdout and injuries. By the end of the year, they were playing their best football of the year. Let's have all the guys ready in training camp, with an upgrade at center, playing together for a third year.

 

I hope you are right CB. I am getting awful vibes about Dockery.

[C.Biscuit97]

I hope you are right CB. I am getting awful vibes about Dockery.

 

Dockery got a little overpaid. At the same time because of his contract, people notice him more. I still think he is a very good guard who is hurt by played at the center position. Here's a good site: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol According to that site, the Bills are 2th in the NFL running around left end (5.79 ypc), 14th at LT (4.33), 26th up the middle (3.89, hello weakness), 2th behind right tackle (4.82, Walker has been a great pickup), and 9th around right end (4.34).

 

My ideal plan

Give Peters his money this off-season so he misses no OTAs (even if he never lives up to being the top LT in the game, I'd rather overpay linemen than wrs or cbs).

Re-sign Preston to a deal similar to Butler's and have a good, solid backup at G and C.

Bye Fowler

Draft a center in the 2nd

Draft a pass receiving TE

 

I would love to see a team that runs more 2 TEs sets that is built off the running game and play action passing. In short, and I would love to have the K-Gun offense, built a team that is made for Buffalo. Miami plays more like the this than the Bills do. I think Edwards will be a really good QB. But even if he is average, looking at the playoffs this year, you don't need superstar QBs. Play to your strengths: running game, STs, and hopefully defense.

[Bill from NYC]

Dockery got a little overpaid. At the same time because of his contract, people notice him more. I still think he is a very good guard who is hurt by played at the center position. Here's a good site: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol According to that site, the Bills are 2th in the NFL running around left end (5.79 ypc), 14th at LT (4.33), 26th up the middle (3.89, hello weakness), 2th behind right tackle (4.82, Walker has been a great pickup), and 9th around right end (4.34).

 

My ideal plan

Give Peters his money this off-season so he misses no OTAs (even if he never lives up to being the top LT in the game, I'd rather overpay linemen than wrs or cbs).

Re-sign Preston to a deal similar to Butler's and have a good, solid backup at G and C.

Bye Fowler

Draft a center in the 2nd

Draft a pass receiving TE

 

I would love to see a team that runs more 2 TEs sets that is built off the running game and play action passing. In short, and I would love to have the K-Gun offense, built a team that is made for Buffalo. Miami plays more like the this than the Bills do. I think Edwards will be a really good QB. But even if he is average, looking at the playoffs this year, you don't need superstar QBs. Play to your strengths: running game, STs, and hopefully defense.

 

I like your plan, except for Preston. I'm thinking that a rookie could perform at least as good as him and would hopefully have more upside.

[BuffaloBill]

I said in an earlier post that I would not comment on the Jason Peters situation again. I will try to hold to this point while also responding to your comments below.

 

jesus dood, you are such an self important amateur. you will be kind here? are you a highly accomplished nfl gm? no, you are a guy with a keyboard just like me.

 

Didn't you know that I turned down the Cleveland and KC GM jobs? In all seriousness, I am a guy with a keyboard just like you. However in my responses on this thread and others about the same topic I felt it appropriate in the interest of debate or discussion to call people on their lack of thought and analysis when they just threw out statements like "trade the guy." Many, but not all, people saying this did not put one minute of thought into what are the ramifications of this and how they should be addressed. I do not think asking people to support their statements is in any way inappropriate.

 

instead of coming up with a million smoke screens pretending to be so knowledgeable about the unknown

 

What are the smoke screens or unknowns? I simply asked questions and at times offered information that might help people to formulate an answer to them. Is it wrong to ask people to think about why they say what they do and then to support their position with information?

 

you think peters is a great important player for our team and should be paid top 3 o lineman money in spite of his holding out, injuries, and public statements. i think he is a very talented lineman that at times is great, but at other times is far from great, is clearly a malcontent, and simply is not worth that large of a contract.

 

While I would argue you have misstated my thoughts somewhat and added words that did not come from me but at the end of the day we reach an impasse... so be it.

 

so if he is gonna hold out and get hurt and not be consistent in protecting the passer, i think we don't want to pay him that kind of scratch. so what do we do with him? well, we trade him to get something for him, it's that simple.

 

See above

 

you talk about creating a need, but if he holds out again, he is creating the need. you can't count on a guy because the chubby chasers on the board have decided to crown him the king of the fat asses. if he holds out again he is making it very very clear he is not a team guy. eff him.

 

You were the one earlier stating that we should just get to the salient points so why all the verbiage around chubby chasers, fat asses and eff him? Why don't you simply say that he is not productive and is disruptive to the team. Therefore, the Bills would be smart to trade him away if they address the need for another LT that will not degrade the play of the offensive line and if they can get fair value in either draft picks or another player(s) in return.

 

 

Just so you know, I have no difficulty with the idea of trading Peters when, and if the conditions just mentioned are met.

[murra]

Good arguments all around. Unfortunately, each of our opinions have been biased generally by whether or not we believe Peters to be valuable enough to top pay. What seems to be the least fortunate, is that the Buffalo Bills, desperate to hold on to something considered great, could perhaps overpay yet another lineman in Peters. However, Brandon's play of basically ignoring Peters and his agent, while they did the same to him, seems to me that he is definitely not going to renegotiate this contract until (at the very least) it's in its final year.

 

Some questions for thought:

 

Will a new center this season alleviate any excuses critics have towards Peters?

 

Are injuries enough of an issue for Peters to force the team to stay away from renegotiation?

 

Will a full training camp show us Peters' true value?

 

Are there enough teams desperate for LT to generate a high market for Peters?

 

Primarily, I believe the last two questions to be related, in that a Yes and No answer to each respectively would mean that he will remain with the team, no doubt about it. Most likely it all rides on the last question, and I wouldn't be surprised if Peters is not put on the table, but offers come through regardless.

 

In the end we must realize that while most teams are excited about a two time pro-bowler at LT, only a select few are willing to deal with a guy who held out of the season initially for contractual complaints, and was held out at the end of the season due to injury.