Mike Gandy

[BuffaloBill]

Trade him for a 1st and a 2nd, or at worst, 1st and a 3rd. There you will be able to fill up two of the other needs, while picking up a random veteran LT of average talent. My logic behind that is that you have Peters on a pedestal. I thought he was a specimen when he was blocking punts and everything, but even more than his attitude, his play has shown us that he's not committed enough to the game to be an elite LT. The only difference in you understanding my reasoning is that you can't get past the fact that Peters might not be as great as you think he is.

 

 

I do not have Peters on a pedestal ... my issue is the unrealistic expections that people have when they flippantly say "trade the guy." You throw out "trade him for a 1st and a second" as if there are teams just lined up to throw those kinds of picks at the Bills for the guy. Teams do not give up picks that easily. The Chiefs got a first and a third last year for Jared Allen (a top flight defensive end - a position that is generally consdered slightly less valuable than on offensive LT) Critics suggest the chiefs did not fare well in the exchange.

 

I go back to the statistics which show that after 3 years 60% of the players chosen in the first three rounds are either out of the NFL or play for a team other than the one they were drafted by. Depends on the position but you essentially end up with odds that say you trade away a proven player in his prime for two rookies - only one of whom is likely to be around in three years. Bad odds in my judgement.

 

Finally, good teams do not simply trade away their best players. The idea is simply stupid.

[murra]

I do not have Peters on a pedestal ... my issue is the unrealistic expections that people have when they flippantly say "trade the guy." You throw out "trade him for a 1st and a second" as if there are teams just lined up to throw those kinds of picks at the Bills for the guy. Teams do not give up picks that easily. The Chiefs got a first and a third last year for Jared Allen (a top flight defensive end - a position that is generally consdered slightly less valuable than on offensive LT) Critics suggest the chiefs did not fare well in the exchange.

 

I go back to the statistics which show that after 3 years 60% of the players chosen in the first three rounds are either out of the NFL or play for a team other than the one they were drafted by. Depends on the position but you essentially end up with odds that say you trade away a proven player in his prime for two rookies - only one of whom is likely to be around in three years. Bad odds in my judgement.

 

Finally, good teams do not simply trade away their best players. The idea is simply stupid.

 

What? Dude. If you can get a 1st and a 3rd, which is not unrealistic at all...and you don't take it, then you're stupid.

[C.Biscuit97]

What? Dude. If you can get a 1st and a 3rd, which is not unrealistic at all...and you don't take it, then you're stupid.

 

 

Right because we all know that the Bills have had a ton of pro bowl LTs entering their prime.

 

Everyone whines about the Bills not being committed to winning and yet people suggest trading one of the best players at one of the hardest positions in football. It's beyond retarded. Peters wanted more money and did what he thought he had to do. But it's done. The guy is good. Give him the money and let him go through a full offseason training. You don't get better by constantly making holes and trying to replace them every year.

[BillsWatch]

PERCEIVED best by some and considered over rated by others. Pro Bowl as many people claimed by regarding Ruben Brown is over rated driven by reputation and often happens from some remembering previous years.

 

JP did not play as a Pro Bowl player most of year and if Bills can get Pro Bowl worthy picks for him and Bills front office think they can use them more wisely than paying JP Pro Bowl money for multiple years before he has earned it they should trade him.

[DrDawkinstein]

I do not have Peters on a pedestal ... my issue is the unrealistic expections that people have when they flippantly say "trade the guy." You throw out "trade him for a 1st and a second" as if there are teams just lined up to throw those kinds of picks at the Bills for the guy. Teams do not give up picks that easily. The Chiefs got a first and a third last year for Jared Allen (a top flight defensive end - a position that is generally consdered slightly less valuable than on offensive LT) Critics suggest the chiefs did not fare well in the exchange.

 

I go back to the statistics which show that after 3 years 60% of the players chosen in the first three rounds are either out of the NFL or play for a team other than the one they were drafted by. Depends on the position but you essentially end up with odds that say you trade away a proven player in his prime for two rookies - only one of whom is likely to be around in three years. Bad odds in my judgement.

 

Finally, good teams do not simply trade away their best players. The idea is simply stupid.

 

you may not like the idea. you may be able to prove that it probably wont happen.

 

but cmon, we're just discussing the possibilities since we find ourselves in the offseason already.

 

everything is for sale for the right price. so pretend the right price came along...

[cale]

. The world famous, Mike Gandy. You see, I always hear about how an offense relies so heavily on their line, but having first hand knowledge of the lack of talent that Gandy brings to the table...I'm starting to see things differently. Apparently you can have an effective offense with a horrid starting left tackle. So I need some help. Has Gandy had some miraculous turn around? Or am I right to think that the league's current perspective of Peters is too high for us to ignore?

 

Will someone please explain to me how you don't put Peters on the table, see what offers float around, before having to commit to what could be a costly and unnecessary contract? And yes, I'm using my Mike Gandy revelation entirely to base my questioning.

 

 

The explanation is chemistry and teamwork. While talent certainly has to be a big part of the O-Line, chemistry between the players (and backups) on the line and how well they work together is even more important. It may be that Gandy has found the right players to play with. They understand his strengths and weaknesses, and he understands theirs. This is especially true with the O-line and the kinds of sophisticated blitzing packages that defenses are throwing at them. They have to get the protection calls and blitz pick ups right pretty much every time, or the QB is going to get sacked. That takes teamwork, and as of now it looks like the Cardinals have it on their O-Line.

 

Goodness people, he has Russ Grimm, one of the all time great OL coaches coaching him...Who do we have? Great coaching can cover a multitude of sins. Poor coaching makes your talent look like they can't beat JV teams.

 

Everybody is trying to dupe the NE formula and think getting above average players in good schemes is gonna get you there. They forget that one of the best all time coaches is coaching that team. Spawn of Satan though that he may be.

 

C

[pimp on da' net]

um those who want to trade Peters and draft a new LT. Think about this for a moment: Do you actually trust the Bills scouting dept.? Especially with the abundance of busts on both sides of the line?

thank you for injecting some sanity here,with this coaching staff legacy of developing players. how in the hell can you believe trading any player (esp. a pro bowl starter) for draft choice's makes any sense?

this org. is inept from the top down, can you name one successful org that builds a franchise from the outside - in (ie. wr, cb, etc.) whatever happened to parcell's 101, dominate at the lines w/ blue chippers and the skill players are JUST A GUY (JAG) in the beginning, then fill in with playmakers as needed. Im not saying its the only way but it sure has a better standing in the league as compared w/ the non-sense their selling at OBD.

[C.Biscuit97]

PERCEIVED best by some and considered over rated by others. Pro Bowl as many people claimed by regarding Ruben Brown is over rated driven by reputation and often happens from some remembering previous years.

 

JP did not play as a Pro Bowl player most of year and if Bills can get Pro Bowl worthy picks for him and Bills front office think they can use them more wisely than paying JP Pro Bowl money for multiple years before he has earned it they should trade him.

 

 

Or maybe players, coaches, and media members actually know about the sport of football than fans. Just a thought. By a lot of accounts, Peters doesn't seem to be the most out going person in the world. Maybe just maybe, he is really good.

 

As for the same Rueben Brown that was overrated, he became a starter on a Super Bowl team shortly after we released him.

[BuffaloBill]

Or maybe players, coaches, and media members actually know about the sport of football than fans. Just a thought. By a lot of accounts, Peters doesn't seem to be the most out going person in the world. Maybe just maybe, he is really good.

 

As for the same Rueben Brown that was overrated, he became a starter on a Super Bowl team shortly after we released him.

 

A voice of reasson among the cries of insanity. The path to an improved team .... create problems where you do not have one in the hopes that you solve others.

[Bill from NYC]

PERCEIVED best by some and considered over rated by others. Pro Bowl as many people claimed by regarding Ruben Brown is over rated driven by reputation and often happens from some remembering previous years.

 

JP did not play as a Pro Bowl player most of year and if Bills can get Pro Bowl worthy picks for him and Bills front office think they can use them more wisely than paying JP Pro Bowl money for multiple years before he has earned it they should trade him.

 

Glenn, trade him and do what? What would Dick Levy do with more picks? Are you firmly convinced that he would make wise choices with them? In the last 3 drafts the Bills have drafted a blocker in the 5th and a 7th rounds. Two late picks in 3 years Glenn! How would they replace Peters?

 

I would much rather the Bills hold onto one of their very few talented players on the roster at a position that is extremly important and very hard to fill.

[colin]

the problem is wanna be know it all football fans are reactionary.

 

they (on this board especially) react to the o line being under heralded in general to assuming that all that matters is line men, and that secondary players (like our pal bill in nyc) are useless, should not be drafted, and are wimps.

 

the bottom line is what you need out of your o line is effective blocking as a unit. it does not matter who is a stud and who is an overachiever, all that matters is how they play for you in your O. the giants don't have much talent and have a good line, and the eagles have a ton of talent and have a good line. there are many ways of doing it and your scheme will often dictate the kind of guy you need.

 

now LTs are hard to find, and their scarcity has caused them to be very expensive, but the fact that gandy is good enough for a team that at worst will be 2nd in their conference should tell us that our idea of what is a good lineman isn't all that valuable.

 

what is always important is talent on D, and playmakers on O. all the teams left have good if not very good Ds, and good if not very good QB play, with 3 of the qb's left being pro bowl franchise guys. they all also have highly paid skill players on the O side of the ball.

 

and what should really smack people in the face IS THE SECONDARY.

 

philly has a ton of talent on the secondary and went out and SPENT HUGE MONEY on another corner. the raves have a stacked secondary, pitts has a very good secondary, and zona has a high paid stud safety and 2 highly drafted corners.

 

all the mouth breathing and hand waving about "DRAFT TEHZ LINZ" is just so dumb. every position counts, but what you see more often is ok offensive linemen over achieving and studs in the secondary and at skill positions.

[Gordio]

I was willing to throw the kitchen sink at Jason Peters this offseason. I knew it would be costly (being an alleged two year pro-bowler and all), but as a fan, I was willing to cope with a high salary for what I thought to be such a high value position.

 

After watching this year's playoffs I've begun to sing a different tune. Arizona is in the NFC Champ game. They got to where they are mostly through their offense, and have recently been riding off of decent defensive performances against Atlanta, and being lucky enough to play against Delhomme in his worst career outing. Beyond that, I realized that their effective offense had a familiar starting left tackle. The world famous, Mike Gandy. You see, I always hear about how an offense relies so heavily on their line, but having first hand knowledge of the lack of talent that Gandy brings to the table...I'm starting to see things differently. Apparently you can have an effective offense with a horrid starting left tackle. So I need some help. Has Gandy had some miraculous turn around? Or am I right to think that the league's current perspective of Peters is too high for us to ignore?

 

Will someone please explain to me how you don't put Peters on the table, see what offers float around, before having to commit to what could be a costly and unnecessary contract? And yes, I'm using my Mike Gandy revelation entirely to base my questioning.

 

 

I do not know man. I see your reasoning but I just do not see how the bills become better by trading away their only true blue chip player they have on the roster. Give peters his money during the offseason. They are a better team with him on the roster.

[stuckincincy]

Gandy is and always has been pretty decent, IMO. It does, however, just go to show you, as if anyone really needs to be shown after 100 years of football, that good offenses need pretty decent to good players, ALL working together, in sync, with good coaching (including position coaching/OC/and HC), being put in a good offense and position to succeed and with a little luck and help from the defense and special teams. Mess with any of those 9-10 things and it might not work. Have all or almost all of those things working at the same time and you can beat anyone.

 

Yep. Give Warner a bit of time, and he can be deadly. His ability helps out his OL - result: The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

[BuffaloBill]

the problem is wanna be know it all football fans are reactionary.

 

they (on this board especially) react to the o line being under heralded in general to assuming that all that matters is line men, and that secondary players (like our pal bill in nyc) are useless, should not be drafted, and are wimps.

 

the bottom line is what you need out of your o line is effective blocking as a unit. it does not matter who is a stud and who is an overachiever, all that matters is how they play for you in your O. the giants don't have much talent and have a good line, and the eagles have a ton of talent and have a good line. there are many ways of doing it and your scheme will often dictate the kind of guy you need.

 

now LTs are hard to find, and their scarcity has caused them to be very expensive, but the fact that gandy is good enough for a team that at worst will be 2nd in their conference should tell us that our idea of what is a good lineman isn't all that valuable.

 

what is always important is talent on D, and playmakers on O. all the teams left have good if not very good Ds, and good if not very good QB play, with 3 of the qb's left being pro bowl franchise guys. they all also have highly paid skill players on the O side of the ball.

 

and what should really smack people in the face IS THE SECONDARY.

 

philly has a ton of talent on the secondary and went out and SPENT HUGE MONEY on another corner. the raves have a stacked secondary, pitts has a very good secondary, and zona has a high paid stud safety and 2 highly drafted corners.

 

all the mouth breathing and hand waving about "DRAFT TEHZ LINZ" is just so dumb. every position counts, but what you see more often is ok offensive linemen over achieving and studs in the secondary and at skill positions.

 

So your premise is that the Bills should use average line players and stars in the secondary? Arguably, this is what they have now in their lines except for Peters. So to fix the mess they need to draft more or pick up FA wide receivers, corners and running backs?

 

This whole situation has been skewed by people's reaction to Peter's holdout and the fact that he may have snuck into the probowl this year. Should we argue that we only need average players in our secondary because Jim Leonhard is having a good showing in the playoffs? Maybe we can get by with an average running back like Mcgahee (I'm being kind here).

 

The point here is that the Bills are pretty much devoid of playmakers at any position. We saw how badly the d-line slipped when Schobel went out why would we now want to self induce the same problem on the o-line?

[BuffaloBaumer]

I was willing to throw the kitchen sink at Jason Peters this offseason. I knew it would be costly (being an alleged two year pro-bowler and all), but as a fan, I was willing to cope with a high salary for what I thought to be such a high value position.

 

After watching this year's playoffs I've begun to sing a different tune. Arizona is in the NFC Champ game. They got to where they are mostly through their offense, and have recently been riding off of decent defensive performances against Atlanta, and being lucky enough to play against Delhomme in his worst career outing. Beyond that, I realized that their effective offense had a familiar starting left tackle. The world famous, Mike Gandy. You see, I always hear about how an offense relies so heavily on their line, but having first hand knowledge of the lack of talent that Gandy brings to the table...I'm starting to see things differently. Apparently you can have an effective offense with a horrid starting left tackle. So I need some help. Has Gandy had some miraculous turn around? Or am I right to think that the league's current perspective of Peters is too high for us to ignore?

 

Will someone please explain to me how you don't put Peters on the table, see what offers float around, before having to commit to what could be a costly and unnecessary contract? And yes, I'm using my Mike Gandy revelation entirely to base my questioning.

 

Have you seen how quickly Warner gets rid of the ball? I think this has a lot to do with the ability of Gandy and how it makes him look better than he is.

[BuffaloBill]

Have you seen how quickly Warner gets rid of the ball? I think this has a lot to do with the ability of Gandy and how it makes him look better than he is.

 

 

You mean to suggest that our QB's don't do the same? I wonder how good Gandy would have looked with Trent in the Huddle.

[colin]

So your premise is that the Bills should use average line players and stars in the secondary? Arguably, this is what they have now in their lines except for Peters. So to fix the mess they need to draft more or pick up FA wide receivers, corners and running backs?

 

This whole situation has been scewed by people's reaction to Peter's holdout and the fact that he may have snuck into the probowl this year. Should we argue that we only need average players in our secondary because Jim Leonhard is having a good showing in the playoffs? Maybe we can get by with an average running back like Mcgahee (I'm being kind here).

 

The point here is that the Bills are pretty much devoid of playmakers at any position. We saw how badly the d-line slipped when Schobel went out why would we now want to self induce the same problem on the o-line?

 

i have said nothing of the sort.

 

the fact of the matter is you need 5 o linemen to play well together, and a super star at one position doesn't help much if you have a good at another. furthermore, what we fans thought was a goof in gandy is playing pretty well overall for the cards.

 

o linemen almost totally across the board are simply not the athletes that d linemen are.

 

so to make it clear for you -- we need a good line as a unit on O, the particular stand out talents of one or two guys isn't that important, while we objectively do need some superstars in the secondary, dline, and at skill positions.

[TheLynchTrain]

If the Bills were to find some quality veteran value by trading Peters, they could always draft an LT, God forbid, in the first round to play LT next year. Check with Kansas City and Denver this past season, their first round tackles they drafted worked out pretty well for them. Now I know the Bills have decided never to draft an OT in round one since Donahoe masterfully brought Mike Williams in with the 4th pick in the draft 7 years ago. But if they trade Peters, it will be time to draft one again in round one.

 

 

I dont know about this logic. So we'd get a 1st and 2nd or a 1st and 3rd for the guy, then go around and spend that 1st on an OT?

 

So we'd trade our blue chip guy for an unproven blue chip guy and a 2nd or 3rd? I don't know about that my friend.

 

I must admit I still am on the fence about this whole thing. And no, Peters isn't going to demand 8 mil, he already said last year he wanted TEN OR ELEVEN MIL, and that was before a "supposedly glorious PRO BOWL SEASON." Can you imagine the dollar bills signs running through him and Eugene Parker's head at this moment?

 

From what we saw in his comments to the media, Peters sounds like a selfish, disgruntled player that doesn't want to be in Buffalo. But I wonder if we can judge the guy from just what he says in the media? We obviously know its not the whole side of the story, maybe a glimpse, but not the whole side. And you can't tell me half the guys in the league are like this, but say differently in the spotlight.

 

I think if we can get the guy for a while at 7-8 mil (with not much guaranteed after a few years to protect investment), do it. If he sucks after a few years, cut him or trade him and ensure that the contract won't bite you in the arse.

 

But if he is hell bent on claiming 10-11 mil a year, and never wants to set foot on Buffalo's soil again, I say the Bills trade him for nothing less than two 1sts or tell him he can sit til the contract is done.

 

I know a lot of people are concerned about throwing the bank on a guy that underachieved this season, who disparages the fans, and acts like the pro bowl and his contract is the only concern, but he has in the PAST shown that he COULD be a HOF 10 year LT....something that is as hard to come by as a HOF QB. We need to take a little risk if we want it to pan out.

 

Now people that saying Walker could replace him as a LT? Give me a break. He was a stopgap til peters came back. I think too many people don't understand football. This isn't madden. There is a difference between a RT and a LT. LT's for the most part defend speed rushers, they are quicker more agile guys. RT's for the most part defend bull rushers, they are more bulky and immobile. Walker was serviceable as a LT, but nothing more than that. His position is RT. Don't use him anywhere else.

[CJPearl2]

Average wasn't good enough for the Bills, even at a depth position.

 

True. Because our players and depth players are all below average!

[BuffaloBill]

so to make it clear for you -- we need a good line as a unit on O, the particular stand out talents of one or two guys isn't that important, while we objectively do need some superstars in the secondary, dline, and at skill positions.

 

 

So how do you get a good o-line when you trade away its best performer and replace him with either an unproven rookie or some other cast off from another team?

 

Then your next line of thinking is that "the stand out talent" of one or two guys is not important. So you suggest putting average or less than average talent across the line is the solution? This says to me that you believe the Bills are better off diluting their total bucket of talent. Sorry just not an outcome I can support. Why not get more of the line to have talent on Peters level, thereby raising the skill level not reducing it?

 

Your skill players do not do much good if your QB is running for his life or on his back most of the time. Nor can running backs be consistent if they have no gaps to get through. We've had substandard line play on both sides of the ball for nearly a decade now. It's high time that this is changed and that change will not be accomplished by trading away your best line player. I wish I had the quote handy but a couple of years ago (before Peters, Walker and Dockery) Bellicheat literally called the Bills o-line a joke. They were.

 

The issue here is not money. The Bills were well under the cap last year. They have plenty of room to sign the guy to an appropriate contract and then move on.

 

The other point lost in this whole exchange is - what superstar is going to come to Buffalo if they have the reputation for underpaying or trading away their best guys? Get a grip. Peters is not a malcontent the guy was trying to get his due on payday. If I was in his shoes I would have done the same. You are only in your prime years once in the NFL. You are also one play away from no longer having a career. The Bills tried to be cheap and he called them on it. So what? Get over it and move on.