murra Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I was willing to throw the kitchen sink at Jason Peters this offseason. I knew it would be costly (being an alleged two year pro-bowler and all), but as a fan, I was willing to cope with a high salary for what I thought to be such a high value position. After watching this year's playoffs I've begun to sing a different tune. Arizona is in the NFC Champ game. They got to where they are mostly through their offense, and have recently been riding off of decent defensive performances against Atlanta, and being lucky enough to play against Delhomme in his worst career outing. Beyond that, I realized that their effective offense had a familiar starting left tackle. The world famous, Mike Gandy. You see, I always hear about how an offense relies so heavily on their line, but having first hand knowledge of the lack of talent that Gandy brings to the table...I'm starting to see things differently. Apparently you can have an effective offense with a horrid starting left tackle. So I need some help. Has Gandy had some miraculous turn around? Or am I right to think that the league's current perspective of Peters is too high for us to ignore? Will someone please explain to me how you don't put Peters on the table, see what offers float around, before having to commit to what could be a costly and unnecessary contract? And yes, I'm using my Mike Gandy revelation entirely to base my questioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans4e64 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Gandy is no where near horrid, and he wasn't when he was here either. He is a better than average lineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckknox Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I agree completely. Trade Peters while he's worth something and get a Tight End & DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I agree completely. Trade Peters while he's worth something and get a Tight End & DE. Then who plays LT? Chambers - give me a break. Why would you assume that some team is going to give you a TE and DE for Peters? First you have to find a team that needs a LT and then they would have to have a quality DE and TE to give up. Tell me what team meets those tests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Gandy is and has always been just average... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCCEO Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I agree that Gandy is and has been average. Average guys look a lot better in the NFC West though. As far as who would play LT if peters goes my guess is we would just move Langston there and add a lineman to play either RT or play RG with Butler moving to RT(Butler played tackle at Virginia so it makes some sense). As far as trading peters. I have mixed feeling about it. Part of me says that if you can get a 1st and a 3rd then you're in fine shape. The other part reminds me of how long we've been without a quality left tackle. Also its not like peters had all of his talent drained out of him. He's still clearly pretty good as evidenced by 2007. I'd probably listen to offers but try to sit on the situation as long as I could before it became detrimental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Gandy is and always has been pretty decent, IMO. It does, however, just go to show you, as if anyone really needs to be shown after 100 years of football, that good offenses need pretty decent to good players, ALL working together, in sync, with good coaching (including position coaching/OC/and HC), being put in a good offense and position to succeed and with a little luck and help from the defense and special teams. Mess with any of those 9-10 things and it might not work. Have all or almost all of those things working at the same time and you can beat anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagentqb Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Would peters, at about 8 million, give you that much better results than a 2 million journeyman on this team in this offense? I'm thinking no. I vote for trade..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Gandy is and has always been just average... Average wasn't good enough for the Bills, even at a depth position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJ91 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Then who plays LT? Chambers - give me a break. Why would you assume that some team is going to give you a TE and DE for Peters? First you have to find a team that needs a LT and then they would have to have a quality DE and TE to give up. Tell me what team meets those tests? If the Bills were to find some quality veteran value by trading Peters, they could always draft an LT, God forbid, in the first round to play LT next year. Check with Kansas City and Denver this past season, their first round tackles they drafted worked out pretty well for them. Now I know the Bills have decided never to draft an OT in round one since Donahoe masterfully brought Mike Williams in with the 4th pick in the draft 7 years ago. But if they trade Peters, it will be time to draft one again in round one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobillsinytown Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 . The world famous, Mike Gandy. You see, I always hear about how an offense relies so heavily on their line, but having first hand knowledge of the lack of talent that Gandy brings to the table...I'm starting to see things differently. Apparently you can have an effective offense with a horrid starting left tackle. So I need some help. Has Gandy had some miraculous turn around? Or am I right to think that the league's current perspective of Peters is too high for us to ignore? Will someone please explain to me how you don't put Peters on the table, see what offers float around, before having to commit to what could be a costly and unnecessary contract? And yes, I'm using my Mike Gandy revelation entirely to base my questioning. The explanation is chemistry and teamwork. While talent certainly has to be a big part of the O-Line, chemistry between the players (and backups) on the line and how well they work together is even more important. It may be that Gandy has found the right players to play with. They understand his strengths and weaknesses, and he understands theirs. This is especially true with the O-line and the kinds of sophisticated blitzing packages that defenses are throwing at them. They have to get the protection calls and blitz pick ups right pretty much every time, or the QB is going to get sacked. That takes teamwork, and as of now it looks like the Cardinals have it on their O-Line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I agree that Gandy is and has been average. Average guys look a lot better in the NFC West though. As far as who would play LT if peters goes my guess is we would just move Langston there and add a lineman to play either RT or play RG with Butler moving to RT(Butler played tackle at Virginia so it makes some sense). As far as trading peters. I have mixed feeling about it. Part of me says that if you can get a 1st and a 3rd then you're in fine shape. The other part reminds me of how long we've been without a quality left tackle. Also its not like peters had all of his talent drained out of him. He's still clearly pretty good as evidenced by 2007. I'd probably listen to offers but try to sit on the situation as long as I could before it became detrimental. good point about the nfc west, agree completely, but they are past the point of just beating that crappy division. i dont mind the idea of trading peters and moving walker to LT if the Bills add a quality player to the right side and if we can get a 1st and 3rd or a big Defensive player. however, i do preach continuity and know that it's probably most important along the Oline. and im not so stupid as to ignore his talent. id still be in talks with Peters now and see what he's looking for and what I could get him down to, while listening to offers. i think id concentrate harder on getting him signed than trading him. you also bring up a good tangent topic. who was the last good LT the Bills had? Jonas Jennings? who was the LT when Bledsoe threw for all those yards to Moulds and Price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justnzane Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 um those who want to trade Peters and draft a new LT. Think about this for a moment: Do you actually trust the Bills scouting dept.? Especially with the abundance of busts on both sides of the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murra Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 um those who want to trade Peters and draft a new LT. Think about this for a moment: Do you actually trust the Bills scouting dept.? Especially with the abundance of busts on both sides of the line? What an irrelevant argument to a completely hypothetical situation. If the Bills were intelligent enough to cash in on Peters' value, then we're assuming they'd be competent enough to replace him correctly. The Bills have had a very average amount of busts, and a large number of diamonds in the rough. Mcgee was a 4th rounder. Peters, Greer, and Jackson were all undrafted FAs. You're overlooking a lot of good scouting because of our big bust that has plagues us years later: Mike Willliams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Gandy is a decent lineman. He had a pretty good year for us in 2005 before he struggled in 2006. The offensive line woes in 2006 were not all attributable to Gandy. In fact, that year we moved Peters to LT and Gandy to LG towards the end of the year and then ran everything left behind our only two good linemen. I know that Gandy makes LT money, but I thought that the Peters-Gandy left side was pretty good. Instead we dumped him and paid a fortune to replace him with Dockery, who has not been an improvement IMO. Arizona's success is a good example that you don't need a superstar at LT to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If the Bills were to find some quality veteran value by trading Peters, they could always draft an LT, God forbid, in the first round to play LT next year. Check with Kansas City and Denver this past season, their first round tackles they drafted worked out pretty well for them. Now I know the Bills have decided never to draft an OT in round one since Donahoe masterfully brought Mike Williams in with the 4th pick in the draft 7 years ago. But if they trade Peters, it will be time to draft one again in round one. Given that roughly 50% of all players chosen in the first three rounds effectively go bust why would you take a chance on a player that is not proven? The Bills can easily afford the contract that Peters will get. The players you so badly want to trade for would get paid would they not? This whole line of thinking is just plain stupid - you do not take your best o lineman and trade him away when you do not have an answer to backfill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murra Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Given that roughly 50% of all players chosen in the first three rounds effectively go bust why would you take a chance on a player that is not proven? The Bills can easily afford the contract that Peters will get. The players you so badly want to trade for would get paid would they not? This whole line of thinking is just plain stupid - you do not take your best o lineman and trade him away when you do not have an answer to backfill him. When your team has many needs to address, you actually do. It's one thing if our line was beyond spectacular, and replacing Peters means we risk losing a very in-rhythm and effective line. It's a completely different story when they play like a box of chocolates all year long and you have obvious needs elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stussy109 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I agree completely. Trade Peters while he's worth something and get a Tight End & DE. Lets trade Peters for 10 free copies of madden 2010, a white "high motor" DE with no muscle tone, and a 205lb OLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 When your team has many needs to address, you actually do. It's one thing if our line was beyond spectacular, and replacing Peters means we risk losing a very in-rhythm and effective line. It's a completely different story when they play like a box of chocolates all year long and you have obvious needs elsewhere. So let's follow your own thoughts here: When your team has many needs to address - what are the needs and how do they get addressed by this trade? Remember that you create another need at LT once you trade Peters. What players are we likely to get in trade? As I said earlier you have to find a team that needs a LT – which teams do you think are candidates and who do they give up for Peters? You've also admitted that our line was not a "very in-rhythm and effective line" so your solution is to trade away your best o-lineman? Not to mention that it has been proven that lines that play well typically require more than one season to meld into an effective unit. I ask again who do you replace Peters with once he is traded? Is Bell proven yet? If so, then great trade the guy. Please do not tell me that Chambers is the answer. Now for the geniuses that think we can just draft a new tackle if we trade Peters how does that impact the rest of the draft? Do you suggest that we take one in the first round? If not then which round are we likely to select a starting rookie left tackle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murra Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 So let's follow your own thoughts here: When your team has many needs to address - what are the needs and how do they get addressed by this trade? Remember that you create another need at LT once you trade Peters. What players are we likely to get in trade? As I said earlier you have to find a team that needs a LT – which teams do you think are candidates and who do they give up for Peters? You've also admitted that our line was not a "very in-rhythm and effective line" so your solution is to trade away your best o-lineman? Not to mention that it has been proven that lines that play well typically require more than one season to meld into an effective unit. I ask again who do you replace Peters with once he is traded? Is Bell proven yet? If so, then great trade the guy. Please do not tell me that Chambers is the answer. Now for the geniuses that think we can just draft a new tackle if we trade Peters how does that impact the rest of the draft? Do you suggest that we take one in the first round? If not then which round are we likely to select a starting rookie left tackle? Trade him for a 1st and a 2nd, or at worst, 1st and a 3rd. There you will be able to fill up two of the other needs, while picking up a random veteran LT of average talent. My logic behind that is that you have Peters on a pedestal. I thought he was a specimen when he was blocking punts and everything, but even more than his attitude, his play has shown us that he's not committed enough to the game to be an elite LT. The only difference in you understanding my reasoning is that you can't get past the fact that Peters might not be as great as you think he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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