Dr. Trooth Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 It's not the style of defense you play... it's how effective it is... period. Their are crappy 3-4 defenses and great 4-3 defenses. For example: 7 of the top 10 NFL defenses are 4-3 defenses. Pittsburgh had the top NFL defense using the 3-4. However the number 2 defense through the number 7 defense were all 4-3 defenses. COnversely the Chargers and Browns ranked 25th and 26th respectively, using the 3-4. I am a fan of the 3-4 and the Bills, personel wise would need to aquire a good nose tackle... in the 320 lb. plus range, a couple of OLBs, and a couple of DEs. Williams would sufice as a backup NT. Stroud could be a LDE. I have zero doubt that Schobel (if healthy) would be a standout ROLB (if Belichick had him he'd be a star at that position. Poz and Mitchell would line up at ILB and make a good tandem. Depth would be needed at ILB... not sure DiGiorgio would hold up. However, any talk of a 3-4 is a moot point. Genius Jauron and Perrywinkle Fewell wouldn't know the first thing about installing and running a 3-4. Hell, they are supposed experts at running a 4-3 and their D has sucked for 3 years in a row. So as long as this regime is in place, we will not see a 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufcomments Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Why do the Bills not run a 3-4 defense. Many of the elite teams in the NFL/AFC run the 3-4. I know you have to have the right personnel as well as a coach to run this but if you look at it many of the playoff teams or teams that were on the brink of playoffs run this defense. For instance, Ravens, Patriots, Steelers, Bears, Dallas, San Diego and I am sure there are more. Looking at all of those teams I have just listed most if not all have fantastic defenses. It seems to me that the Cover 2 is a dying defense. It was great when first introduce in Tampa and quickly was adopted by many teams. On this subject as well I feel that the Bills adopted this defensive strategy way to late compared to the other teams. Now that this type of defense is in decline i feel it is imperative that the Bills find a niche that will work for them on defense. This defense is all over the place as far as sometimes they show up and play extremely well and sometimes they are god awful and there seems to be no in between. In my opinion I feel like a change needs to happen to the defense in order to stay with the times. That is my two cents take it for what its worth. Last time in the playoffs 3-4 Defense super bowl runs 3-4 defense I like the idea Play Stroud inside with Denney and Schobel at ends LBS Free agent or pass rushing draft pick, Crowell , Poz and Mitchell SS -Scott CB- McGee, McKelvin, Greer( if they pay him) or Youbooty in the nickle FS- Whitner I think it could work with a different DC but no way the bills run a 3-4 with Fewell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 It's not the style of defense you play... it's how effective it is... period. Their are crappy 3-4 defenses and great 4-3 defenses. For example: 7 of the top 10 NFL defenses are 4-3 defenses. Pittsburgh had the top NFL defense using the 3-4. However the number 2 defense through the number 7 defense were all 4-3 defenses. COnversely the Chargers and Browns ranked 25th and 26th respectively, using the 3-4. To your point, I was talking to a Steelers fan here and he said LeBeau basically told everyone that very often, they don't play 3-4 and it usually doesn't matter how the front 7 is lined up on a lot of plays. I'd like to see us be more of a blitzing defense. Our CB's are the strength of the defense. Why not stick them all out on an island one-on-one and just send the house? If Whitner is really all that, I'd send him on a blitz 10 times a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Last time in the playoffs 3-4 Defense super bowl runs 3-4 defense I like the idea Play Stroud inside with Denney and Schobel at ends LBS Free agent or pass rushing draft pick, Crowell , Poz and Mitchell SS -Scott CB- McGee, McKelvin, Greer( if they pay him) or Youbooty in the nickle FS- Whitner I think it could work with a different DC but no way the bills run a 3-4 with Fewell I love your enthusiasm, but you're way off in my opinion. To begin with, Stroud isn't a NT, and although he may be able to perform as a NT, his ability would be compromised. Next, having Denney/Schobel as ends on a 3-4 would be disastrous..it's already bad enough in a 4-3. they're too small to be ends on a 3/4..if anything, we would have to move them to OLB's in a 3-4 (unless that's what you meant in your post). To have a 3-4, it would take, other than Schobel, a completely new DL, and even schobel wouldn't be ideal in a 3-4...and as for the linebackers, we would need two OLB's since I wouldn't be thrilled with the prospect of seeing denney/kelsay and co. as linebackers. Transitioning to a 3-4 would be a horrible idea for this team. We're better off simply improving our current scheme, which I (and many others) believe can be done by getting a pass rushing DE to compliment Schobel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOfTheRockpile Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 ANOTHER 3-4 discussion? Seriously? I'm not sure any of you advocating for the 3-4 actually know what it is. Stroud at NT with Denney/Kelsay/Schobel at DE's? HAHAHAHA... you'd have the worst defense in the league, bar none. Our non-existent pass rush would, somehow, get worse. Posluszny and DiGiorgio inside?!? HAHAHAHA... this defense would get run over each and every game (yes, even worse than it does at times now). Cover-2 has nothing to do with the defensive front you play, as some of the more knowledgeable posters have pointed out. Teams in a 3-4 can run a cover-2, teams in a 4-3 can run a cover-2, teams in a 46 can run a cover-2. The problem with the Bills defense isn't the scheme, its the PLAYERS. I know people worship at the altar of Whitner and Posluszny around here, but these guys are - at best - AVERAGE players. It doesn't matter what defense you run. If you have talent, you'll succeed. Putting Posluszny into a 3-4 isn't going to suddenly make him good. Nor Whitner. Nor Schobel, Kelsay or Denney. The roster simply isn't good enough for ANY defensive formation right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOfTheRockpile Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 It's not the style of defense you play... it's how effective it is... period. Their are crappy 3-4 defenses and great 4-3 defenses. For example: 7 of the top 10 NFL defenses are 4-3 defenses. Pittsburgh had the top NFL defense using the 3-4. However the number 2 defense through the number 7 defense were all 4-3 defenses. COnversely the Chargers and Browns ranked 25th and 26th respectively, using the 3-4. I am a fan of the 3-4 and the Bills, personel wise would need to aquire a good nose tackle... in the 320 lb. plus range, a couple of OLBs, and a couple of DEs. Williams would sufice as a backup NT. Stroud could be a LDE. I have zero doubt that Schobel (if healthy) would be a standout ROLB (if Belichick had him he'd be a star at that position. Poz and Mitchell would line up at ILB and make a good tandem. Depth would be needed at ILB... not sure DiGiorgio would hold up. However, any talk of a 3-4 is a moot point. Genius Jauron and Perrywinkle Fewell wouldn't know the first thing about installing and running a 3-4. Hell, they are supposed experts at running a 4-3 and their D has sucked for 3 years in a row. So as long as this regime is in place, we will not see a 3-4. Again, just to be clear, the 3-4 and the 4-3 have NOTHING to do with cover-2. We all understand that, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed and Amuzed Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Again, just to be clear, the 3-4 and the 4-3 have NOTHING to do with cover-2. We all understand that, right? Unfortunately I don't think everyone does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufcomments Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I love your enthusiasm, but you're way off in my opinion. To begin with, Stroud isn't a NT, and although he may be able to perform as a NT, his ability would be compromised. Next, having Denney/Schobel as ends on a 3-4 would be disastrous..it's already bad enough in a 4-3. they're too small to be ends on a 3/4..if anything, we would have to move them to OLB's in a 3-4 (unless that's what you meant in your post). To have a 3-4, it would take, other than Schobel, a completely new DL, and even schobel wouldn't be ideal in a 3-4...and as for the linebackers, we would need two OLB's since I wouldn't be thrilled with the prospect of seeing denney/kelsay and co. as linebackers. Transitioning to a 3-4 would be a horrible idea for this team. We're better off simply improving our current scheme, which I (and many others) believe can be done by getting a pass rushing DE to compliment Schobel. Well I have to disagree. Who says Denney or Schobel would be the ends anyway? They have to upgrade in any style defense they play at the end spot. This is just an hypothetical 3-4 thought 1. Stroud gets double teamed on every play as it is. Beef him up a little bit, remember Jeff Wright played NT beside Bruce Smith. 2. Schobel at a heavier weight at end would look good at that spot. he is good against the run, so is Denney, well he is better than Kelsey which isnt saying alot. You would have Williams, Johnson and Kelsey ( or somebody better) in the rotation on the line. 3. You would think the Bills would have to add a pass rushing LB to the mix. so ill make a correction Draft pick or Free agent LB, Poz and Crowell in the middle with Mitchell on the outside. Those would be the LBs the secondary would remain the same as it is now. Hoping that Greer comes back. The key in the 3-4 defense is a 2 above average DE and a pass rushing LB. If they get the right players I for one would like to see them switch But as I said eariler, Fewell wont run a 3-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Just here's the question: Are we closer to a playoff-caliber defense by adding players to our current 4-3/Cover-2 scheme, or by adding players and changing schemes to a standard 3-4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Well I have to disagree. Who says Denney or Schobel would be the ends anyway? They have to upgrade in any style defense they play at the end spot. This is just an hypothetical 3-4 thought 1. Stroud gets double teamed on every play as it is. Beef him up a little bit, remember Jeff Wright played NT beside Bruce Smith. 2. Schobel at a heavier weight at end would look good at that spot. he is good against the run, so is Denney, well he is better than Kelsey which isnt saying alot. You would have Williams, Johnson and Kelsey ( or somebody better) in the rotation on the line. 3. You would think the Bills would have to add a pass rushing LB to the mix. so ill make a correction Draft pick or Free agent LB, Poz and Crowell in the middle with Mitchell on the outside. Those would be the LBs the secondary would remain the same as it is now. Hoping that Greer comes back. The key in the 3-4 defense is a 2 above average DE and a pass rushing LB. If they get the right players I for one would like to see them switch But as I said eariler, Fewell wont run a 3-4 LOL. Wow. You're living in a fantasy world. Every point you made, when taken on a case-by-case basis may be logical to you on paper, but it's not going to translate to real life scenarios. When broken down, your argument is essentially summed up as follows: To be successful in a 3-4, buffalo's current defensive players would just have to gain weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufcomments Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Just here's the question: Are we closer to a playoff-caliber defense by adding players to our current 4-3/Cover-2 scheme, or by adding players and changing schemes to a standard 3-4? since we dumbed up and decieded not to change the coaching staff............... we need to add 3 playmakers on Defense in the 4-3 we use now 2 DE's and 1 pass rushing LB that can make plays. Free agency is right around the corner so we will see what the Bills do because it will affect how they draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Again, just to be clear, the 3-4 and the 4-3 have NOTHING to do with cover-2. We all understand that, right? maybe this will help: This might also: Google Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bufcomments Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 LOL. Wow. You're living in a fantasy world. Every point you made, when taken on a case-by-case basis may be logical to you on paper, but it's not going to translate to real life scenarios. When broken down, your argument is essentially summed up as follows: To be successful in a 3-4, buffalo's current defensive players would just have to gain weight. No No No weight gain has little to do with it Talent does and the Bills dont have enough talented players at the DE position right now in either scheme, Schobel included. and in a 3-4 your line would have to be bigger, maybe i should have put that in but i figured you would see that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 One reason to switch to the 3-4 would be so that Trent would see it on Fridays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 One reason to switch to the 3-4 would be so that Trent would see it on Fridays. What scared me was that Chris Brown was trying to sell the fact that we only play 7 games against 3-4 defenses next season instead of 9 as a "positive" for 2009. OBD has the attitude not of "we'll figure it out," but one of "we'll get our asses kicked fewer times next year by this defense we can't figure out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 What scared me was that Chris Brown was trying to sell the fact that we only play 7 games against 3-4 defenses next season instead of 9 as a "positive" for 2009. OBD has the attitude not of "we'll figure it out," but one of "we'll get our asses kicked fewer times next year by this defense we can't figure out." Note my avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 New England uses three def. tackles as their down linemen. We could do the same thing with Stroud, Johnson and Williams. Move Schobel to outside linebacker. Play Digiorgio inside with Poz-Voila! Unfortunately this staff doesn't know from the 3-4. But it is a much better D. When you change people's positions and responsibilities, you create a time, often a year or two, where the person is simply trying to change their thinking and get used to the new position. It is an adjustment time. And after this adjustment time, some players will be found unable to handle their new responsibilities. There seems to be a feeling that if a guy is about the right size for a job, then he can do it. But that is a horrible mistake. LBs are often roughly the same size, but not easily interchangeable, as their jobs have wildly different responsibilities, for instance. Many DLs are either one gappers or two-gappers, and not both. Switching jobs causes many to play right into their weaknesses. And DiGiorgio is not starting for a reason. Schobel is a linebacker. That's a bit like taking a construction worker and saying, hey, you're the right size, I've got a job for you as a bouncer at a strip club, you'll do fine. Lots of people won't, and Schobel is very likely to be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 No No No weight gain has little to do with it Talent does and the Bills dont have enough talented players at the DE position right now in either scheme, Schobel included. and in a 3-4 your line would have to be bigger, maybe i should have put that in but i figured you would see that See that? Don't you think I freaking know that? You go through the trouble of posting that Stroud could gain weight and transition to a position he's never played before in the NFL. I'm sure Kyle Williams would be great in a 3-4 too, right? McCargo? Oh, how about Ellis? I'm sure he would make a great DE in this 3-4 scheme, being the fanthom weight he is. You're asking Schobel to gain weight without realizing that by gaining weight, you're taking his biggest attribute away-his quickness. Then you continue to babble about weight not having to do anything with it..and that it's "talent". No sh--. Here's something you're apparently not aware of: there's 3-4 talent, and there's 4-3 talent. Guess which we have? And for you to continue on with your fantasies of a 3-4 with this current roster is truly exemplary of your football IQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Again, just to be clear, the 3-4 and the 4-3 have NOTHING to do with cover-2. We all understand that, right? Sorry, but we run a variation of the Cover 2 called the Tampa 2. And it's a 4 - 3 defense which desperately needs the front four to get lots of pressure without LB blitzes. You might notice that that has not happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Well I have to disagree. Who says Denney or Schobel would be the ends anyway? They have to upgrade in any style defense they play at the end spot. This is just an hypothetical 3-4 thought 1. Stroud gets double teamed on every play as it is. Beef him up a little bit, remember Jeff Wright played NT beside Bruce Smith. 2. Schobel at a heavier weight at end would look good at that spot. he is good against the run, so is Denney, well he is better than Kelsey which isnt saying alot. You would have Williams, Johnson and Kelsey ( or somebody better) in the rotation on the line. 3. You would think the Bills would have to add a pass rushing LB to the mix. so ill make a correction Draft pick or Free agent LB, Poz and Crowell in the middle with Mitchell on the outside. Those would be the LBs the secondary would remain the same as it is now. Hoping that Greer comes back. The key in the 3-4 defense is a 2 above average DE and a pass rushing LB. If they get the right players I for one would like to see them switch But as I said eariler, Fewell wont run a 3-4 The minute you say "Beef him up a little, you might as well say "he won't fit this formation." When you beef guys up, you often slow them down, cut their effectiveness and generally have them performing duties which are different from those they have found success at. Stroud is the one guy at our defense who is really well-adapted for his role and he does a great job. So naturally you want him to start using a different skill set. It's like saying "He's a good teacher, and teachers talk, so let's make him a lawyer next year." It doesn't generally work that way. When you switch from a 3 - 4 to a 4 - 3 or vice versa, you usually have to junk about eight of your guys in the first couple of years. Those are just the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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