Comment about the Tampa Bay Cover 2

[BobChalmers]

Is the Tampa 2 designed to let teams with 3rd & 15's get first downs? Cause this year, that all it did for us.....

 

It got us 14th in points and yards despite shaky help from the offense and a non-existant pass rush from the DE position.

 

Honestly - that's pretty darned good.

 

In yards, The Pats were 10th, Fish 15th, Jets 16th. All three teams had better offenses keeping them off the field.

 

The Pats are the only AFC East team able to get truly great talent at NT (Wilfolk) - the Bills only made Jason Ferguson and Kris Jenkins look like all-Pros with our lousy play at Center (and RG when Butler was out).

[silvermike]

I really think that the best way to build a good defense is to be consistent in a scheme, and that there is little intrinsic merit in the 3-4/4-3/Cover-2 debate beyond what best fits a certain set of players. If you're a reasonable GM and are in a scheme for 3 years, you should have talent that fits it best.

 

However, there is something to be said for trying to go against the grain. Tampa won a Super Bowl, so there was a flurry of T2 teams over the course of the next few years, and the cost of the key players in it (rangy MLBs, penetrating DTs, superstar SSs, etc) went up. But before Tampa did it, they could pay just a little bit less for the guys at those positions, and have better average talent and more money to spend on the offense.

 

The 3-4 worked similarly for the Patriots for a few years, but that ship has definitely sailed now. There was a point where those DE/LB tweeners that make such great pass rushers were heavily undervalued, and teams could scoop them up at a relative discount. Once the 3-4 got popular again in the past few years, Belichick has mostly had them playing a hybrid form that regularly switches from 4-3 to 3-4 and back.

 

But the point of all this is you gotta be ahead of the curve; if you're not, and we're not, I'd say the best solution is to play a base defense and target the best players available. For what it's worth, Fewell's T-2 is not nearly as blitz-averse as the Indy/Tampa version. And the Creep Formation that we've seen a few times is actually a bit innovative. Our goal should be to worry less about scheme and more about talent, and hope that we have a coaching staff that can take advantage of it.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

JR - T2 doesn't require shut-down corners. i'd say you could get by with just 'decent' guys @ corner in a good C2.

 

Guys, I misspoke. You need great safety play if you run an effective C-2, not necessarily corner play.

 

But if you think about it, a lot of the great Tampa 2 defenses had shut-down corners.

 

In any event, I think you guys got my point-- the defense requires too many superb athletes. We don't have Derrick Brooks, Warren Sapp, John Lynch, etc.

[BillsVet]

How many of the players your scheme wants are coming out of college, and how many teams are you competing with to get those players.

 

Whoever adopts a different scheme first has a big advantage in the NFL. Jumping on a current bandwagon is the worst thing you can do. You want to have your pick of guys that other teams don't have the scheme to use.

 

If the T2 is falling from favor - but not because of a rule change or something that makes it specifically flawed - then you want to jump on it - you'll be competing with fewer teams come draft day to get your guys.

 

The 3-4 is in vogue right now - great - let the rest of the AFC East compete with each other and the rest of the league for large dominant NT's and full-sized DE's.

 

Having said all that, the McKelvin pick - and I love how he played - is pretty non-sensical. It's like they're still drafting for Greg Williams' 46 defense (which absolutely required dominant cover corners as they were constantly left alone in single man coverage).

 

Great point about the prevailing winds blowing in the NFL wrt to defenses. The 3-4 is making a comeback, primarily because teams see PIT playing it and want to duplicate it. I'll take it a step further and note that there aren't all that many great coaches or coordinators. People like Dick LeBeau have and are writing the book on how to exectute their defenses. I don't think there are that many great coordinators out there, especially because many of them want a HC job. People like LeBeau and Tom Moore, OC for Indy, don't want a HC job. They're great and want to remain coordinators.

 

The 3-4 needs a massive NT for it to succeed, along with LB's who can rush the passer. It's tough to make it work without those players. Those guys aren't necessarily in abundance and a reason why teams might switch to the 3-4, but not succeed with it like NE or PIT does. Players like BJ Raji will be in high demand, and plenty of teams will jump all over themselves trying to get them. Meanwhile, there are a host of good DT's that don't fit the 3-4 who may be available.

[BobChalmers]

But the point of all this is you gotta be ahead of the curve; if you're not, and we're not, I'd say the best solution is to play a base defense and target the best players available. For what it's worth, Fewell's T-2 is not nearly as blitz-averse as the Indy/Tampa version. And the Creep Formation that we've seen a few times is actually a bit innovative. Our goal should be to worry less about scheme and more about talent, and hope that we have a coaching staff that can take advantage of it.

 

Not necessarily ahead of the curve.

 

It's arguably almost better to be where the Bills are right now - sort of behind the curve.

 

OK - I know that sounds ridiculous (and I'm modifying what I said before), but think about it:

 

As more teams shift from 4-3's to 3-4's and away from T2 in particular, they'll be leaving good players behind on the draft board right away. In other words - the one thing better than being the first team on a new trend (where everyone else will soon be jumping on) is to be the one (or one of a few anyway) team that doesn't jump off the old scheme.

 

If other teams start to bail on the T2, the Bills will be way way ahead of the next curve because they'll start to see a draft and FA advantage immediately while other teams will take years to come back around.

[profile]

I don't want to simplify this debate because it's replys are some of the most well thought out i have read in a while, but I don't see any defensive scheme change being the end all answer to any team's performance. The T2, the 46, the 3-4 and 4-3 with different blitz and cover packages, what it will always come down to in any scheme is execution with players that are good.

 

Add a pass rush to this year's defense, and I don't care who, but add a strong pass rush and this team competes in some of those wide margin losses, and we beat the dolphags twice. We have decent talent, just not enough up front, and a lack of confidence in M2M coverage. I'd also like to throw a jab at the DC, I don't think he had his players in the best position to win this year, especially late in games and 3rd downs.

[The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ.]

The Dolphins switched to a 3-4 defence this year without a glitch and did worlds better(still struggled against the pass). To say we can not switch to a 3-4 becuase we dont have the talent and then saying we dont have the talent to play the Tampa Two is crazy. Also I dont agree about the aquiring the Tallent argument fully because you are competing with more people. While yes you will be competing for the same talent against more people(supply and Demand) but keeping a system that teams know how to beat by running up the middle or sending a short crossing pattern over the middle makes less sense, besides just being the only ones trying to get Triplett didnt make him good. I also disagree about paying less when you have a new system and the players that fit that system would not be in demand. Derrick Brooks was going to get big money no matter where he played. Same for Simeon Rice, Warren Sapp, Ronde Barber, John Lynch. That team was stacked Defensively. As far as the Bills I think some of our players-Poz, Mitchell, Whitner, McKelvin would probably do better in a 3-4. Denney seems like he would be a better fit in a 3-4 then he is at this current scheme. While Schobel and Kelsay would struggle, they are struggling now so its a wash. Really when it boils down to it, why should we be scared to change anything with this team. Is the thought of not winning seven games in a season any scarier then this. After three years of 7-9 not changing something is absurd. I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone just cant take the complaceny of this team anymore.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I don't want to simplify this debate because it's replys are some of the most well thought out i have read in a while, but I don't see any defensive scheme change being the end all answer to any team's performance. The T2, the 46, the 3-4 and 4-3 with different blitz and cover packages, what it will always come down to in any scheme is execution with players that are good.

 

Add a pass rush to this year's defense, and I don't care who, but add a strong pass rush and this team competes in some of those wide margin losses, and we beat the dolphags twice. We have decent talent, just not enough up front, and a lack of confidence in M2M coverage. I'd also like to throw a jab at the DC, I don't think he had his players in the best position to win this year, especially late in games and 3rd downs.

 

Agreed re. the scheme and the pass rush. But adding an impact pass rusher is easier said than done. No rookie will come in and be an immediate impact. We won't get Suggs or Peppers in free agency.

[JStranger76]

Suggs, Peppers and Haynseworth won't even make it to free agency, so it's a moot point anyways.

[keepthefaith]

The Dolphins switched to a 3-4 defence this year without a glitch and did worlds better(still struggled against the pass). To say we can not switch to a 3-4 becuase we dont have the talent and then saying we dont have the talent to play the Tampa Two is crazy. Also I dont agree about the aquiring the Tallent argument fully because you are competing with more people. While yes you will be competing for the same talent against more people(supply and Demand) but keeping a system that teams know how to beat by running up the middle or sending a short crossing pattern over the middle makes less sense, besides just being the only ones trying to get Triplett didnt make him good. I also disagree about paying less when you have a new system and the players that fit that system would not be in demand. Derrick Brooks was going to get big money no matter where he played. Same for Simeon Rice, Warren Sapp, Ronde Barber, John Lynch. That team was stacked Defensively. As far as the Bills I think some of our players-Poz, Mitchell, Whitner, McKelvin would probably do better in a 3-4. Denney seems like he would be a better fit in a 3-4 then he is at this current scheme. While Schobel and Kelsay would struggle, they are struggling now so its a wash. Really when it boils down to it, why should we be scared to change anything with this team. Is the thought of not winning seven games in a season any scarier then this. After three years of 7-9 not changing something is absurd. I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone just cant take the complaceny of this team anymore.

 

Ain't gonna happen. Jauron is loyal to a fault to his mediocre coodinators and his mediocre style of play. Same shyt that he did here in Chicago.

 

7-9 + a bit of new talent + a tougher schedule next year = 6-10 and Jauron finally getting canned.

[BobChalmers]

After three years of 7-9 not changing something is absurd. I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone just cant take the complaceny of this team anymore.

 

Again - the Bills finished with a losing record despite the defense ranking #14 in points and yards - not because of it.

 

They lost 10-3 to the 49'ers and 13-0 to the Pats. Not the defense's fault.

 

Buffalo had the Jets beat until DJ and JP combined to hand their D the ball for an instant touchdown. Favre didn't do that against our Tampa-2, his defensive teammates did it against our Choker-2.

 

Cleveland jumped out to a big lead because young (concussed?) Edwards (who I firmly believe in) had a horrific start with multiple turnovers. Not the defense's fault.

 

Add to that the Bills defense managed this without any pass rush from the DE position, and it's really hard to understand why a big change in defensive scheme is called for.

 

A team with only pretty-good defensive talent just won the Super Bowl 2 years ago with this scheme. Yeah, Indy is mostly about offense - but remember, Peyton was stinking up the field through most of the playoffs. They have the oft-injured Bob Sanders, and the inconsistent Dwight Freeney and some other good guys. It worked well enough.

 

The Bills need a new Center. They need better DE play. If they're going to use the frikkin' FB so much, they need to go get a good one, not plug in a street free agent weeks into the season. They need a better TE and they need a third good WR, who may already be on the roster (Hardy OR Steve Johnson OR Roscoe - though I'm giving up on him as a WR).

 

Then they need the head coach to believe in his players and start calling plays to win instead of to avoid losing.

 

They really aren't that far away and they don't need to blow up a proven scheme just because it looks a little wimpy at times.

 

Guys - I don't prefer this scheme either - I have to be exposed to the Ravens every week down here and watching Ngata kick butt and seeing an aggressive big-body 4-3 succeed so well is annoying. But they have unusual talent making that work - including two shoe-in hall-of-famers in Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.

 

But it's not our defensive scheme that's costing us games. If what we want is wins, there's more efficient things to do other than blowing it up.

[jwws9999]

That list is deceiving. Not only have Kiffin and Dungy had success with the Tampa 2, but Dungy met Lovie Smith in the Superbowl, where he was running that defense. Kansas City and Detroit, on the other hand, don't have the personnel to do well with any defense.

 

And why give John Harbaugh credit? Rex Ryan has been running the same defense in Baltimore since Marvin Lewis left. Ron Rivera's defense only improved from 22 to 18 when he took over, not exactly a world-changing move. And Leslie Frazier inherited a defense with the Williams Wall. I'd attribute most of its improvement this year to Jared Allen (who did just as well in Herm's defense) than anything Frazier did.

 

Oh, and the triple-A Bills defense was 14th in yards and points, missing its top pass rusher most of the season, missing arguably its best linebacker the whole season, and a slew of injuries in the secondary.

 

 

wow, 14th in defense and we still didn't have a winning record, go figure

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

The Bills didn't really play a Cover 2 often this year. Much more often they were in a cover 3.

 

Sorry, but having a safety man up on a tight end and playing your corners 10 yards off the receivers is definitely not a cover 2.

 

Defensive scheme only gets you so far....their strength on defense is in their corners. Which is why they didn't waste them by giving them cover-2 type responsibilities this year. They need DEs that can get to the QB, whether they're in a cover 2, cover 3, base 4-3, whatever.

 

But this "Tampa 2" garbage has to stop...it was very rarely the scheme they played this year.

[Captain Hindsight]

We should just play hamdan at every position.. That would take care of it

[Sisyphean Bills]

A 10 yard cushion could be soft man, man under 2 over, cover 1, cover 2, cover 3, cover 4, ... The depth is about not getting beat deep. It's like a partial prevent mentality because your afraid your corners can't run with the receivers.

 

It's the NFL. No defense sits in the same coverage every play all season long.

[lets_go_bills]

the “Tampa 2” defense has lost a lot of luster in league circles as Tony Dungy’s disciples — Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards and Rod Marinelli— have all struggled running the single-gap attack that is designed to limit big plays.

 

“Monte Kiffin is the only guy who could run that defense effectively, and he had 13 years as a coordinator (with the Buccaneers),” a veteran personnel evaluator said. “Now everyone is trying to emulate (Eagles defensive coordinator) Jim Johnson. His guys are all having success. Look at (Ravens head coach) John Harbaugh, Spags, (Vikings defensive coordinator) Leslie Frazier and 'Chico' (Chargers defensive coordinator Ron Rivera).

 

“If I’m an owner, that’s the pipeline I want.”

 

 

 

Notice- no mention of Perry Fewell and the Triple A Bills.

Must say I hate the cover2. I firmly believe the Bills should build a a big physical defense that other teams would hate to play in Buffalo in December and January.

A defense based solely on speed is negated when the terrible weather conditions arrive.

 

I'm surprised Dick LeBeau's defense isn't mentioned, especially since it is the top defensive unit of 2008.

 

Jim Johnson calls an awesome defense that is effective and fun to watch. And he does it without any big name players other than Dawkins and Samuel. I really enjoy Jim Johnson's defense because it is a 4-3 base with exoctic blitz packages that are incredibly effective.

 

I like the Cover 2, but it is contingent on having a mean D-Line that can collapse the pocket and turf QBs. Sign Haynesworth and Suggs and suddenly nobody would be able to even get a first down on us, let alone score. Personally, I don't care what the scheme is so long as it works. But I don't like the 3-4 and prefer the 4-3.

 

It all starts in the trenches. Always. Look at the top defenses, they all have great players on the D-Line: Pit/Hampton, Bal/Ngata, Phi/Cole. Need I say more?

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'm surprised Dick LeBeau's defense isn't mentioned, especially since it is the top defensive unit of 2008.

 

Jim Johnson calls an awesome defense that is effective and fun to watch. And he does it without any big name players other than Dawkins and Samuel. I really enjoy Jim Johnson's defense because it is a 4-3 base with exoctic blitz packages that are incredibly effective.

 

I like the Cover 2, but it is contingent on having a mean D-Line that can collapse the pocket and turf QBs. Sign Haynesworth and Suggs and suddenly nobody would be able to even get a first down on us, let alone score. Personally, I don't care what the scheme is so long as it works. But I don't like the 3-4 and prefer the 4-3.

 

It all starts in the trenches. Always. Look at the top defenses, they all have great players on the D-Line: Pit/Hampton, Bal/Ngata, Phi/Cole. Need I say more?

It's a different mindset, for sure. Johnson is trying to dictate to the offense and take away what they want to do. By stunting the DL and flooding one side of the offensive formation with pressure, he is trying to take away one side of the field and force the QB to hurry and hopefully pull a Losman.

 

The Tampa-2 by contrast is a vanilla defense that just tries to cover the entire field and force the offense to execute plays with precision. It's a blanket defense with the idea of maintaining sound gap control against the run and keeping defenders sideline to sideline against the pass to keep the offense honest. Of course, it requires all 11 players to execute their defensive assignments very well because an offense can and will exploit breakdowns and weaknesses. It's basically the defense that Bill Walsh designed his West Coast offense to beat -- get the ball out quick and accurately, hit a seam, and rack up the RAC yards.

[BLZFAN4LIFE]

It's tough to win in the NFL even if you execute really really well on Friday because the interesting weather tends to distract the Bills players.

 

...We'll have the guys back in on Wednesday to correct the mistakes we made and move on, obviously we're very disappointed.

[The Rev.Mattb74 ESQ.]

Again - the Bills finished with a losing record despite the defense ranking #14 in points and yards - not because of it.

 

They lost 10-3 to the 49'ers and 13-0 to the Pats. Not the defense's fault.

 

Buffalo had the Jets beat until DJ and JP combined to hand their D the ball for an instant touchdown. Favre didn't do that against our Tampa-2, his defensive teammates did it against our Choker-2.

 

Cleveland jumped out to a big lead because young (concussed?) Edwards (who I firmly believe in) had a horrific start with multiple turnovers. Not the defense's fault.

 

Add to that the Bills defense managed this without any pass rush from the DE position, and it's really hard to understand why a big change in defensive scheme is called for.

 

A team with only pretty-good defensive talent just won the Super Bowl 2 years ago with this scheme. Yeah, Indy is mostly about offense - but remember, Peyton was stinking up the field through most of the playoffs. They have the oft-injured Bob Sanders, and the inconsistent Dwight Freeney and some other good guys. It worked well enough.

 

The Bills need a new Center. They need better DE play. If they're going to use the frikkin' FB so much, they need to go get a good one, not plug in a street free agent weeks into the season. They need a better TE and they need a third good WR, who may already be on the roster (Hardy OR Steve Johnson OR Roscoe - though I'm giving up on him as a WR).

 

Then they need the head coach to believe in his players and start calling plays to win instead of to avoid losing.

 

They really aren't that far away and they don't need to blow up a proven scheme just because it looks a little wimpy at times.

 

Guys - I don't prefer this scheme either - I have to be exposed to the Ravens every week down here and watching Ngata kick butt and seeing an aggressive big-body 4-3 succeed so well is annoying. But they have unusual talent making that work - including two shoe-in hall-of-famers in Ray Lewis and Ed Reed.

 

But it's not our defensive scheme that's costing us games. If what we want is wins, there's more efficient things to do other than blowing it up.

I am sorry and not trying to be disrespectful but to me coming in the middle of the pack in yards allowed is meaningless, when you come in 28th in sacks, 27th in interceptions and 23 in points allowed per game.

[Solomon Grundy]

Yep, the speed rushing ends become a non-factor in nasty weather, but are sure great to have if you reach the Super Bowl. The key is to find the right balance, which is tough. I started a thread about drafting BJ Raji even though my personal #1 choice would probably be Everett Brown. In nasty weather January games, a DT is probably more important than a DE.

Bruce Smith's sacks weren't due to his power. Bruce used speed and craftiness. He would use his speed to get outside and once that OT planted that foot to try to maintain him he would spin back inside and destroy the QB. Kind of like the guy from FSU. There are/were many speed rushing ends that played in nasty weather conditions: Derrick Thomas, James Harrison, Mark Gastineau, Osi Umenyiora, KGB, Alex Brown, etc.