Comment about the Tampa Bay Cover 2

[In space no one can hear]

the “Tampa 2” defense has lost a lot of luster in league circles as Tony Dungy’s disciples — Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards and Rod Marinelli— have all struggled running the single-gap attack that is designed to limit big plays.

 

“Monte Kiffin is the only guy who could run that defense effectively, and he had 13 years as a coordinator (with the Buccaneers),” a veteran personnel evaluator said. “Now everyone is trying to emulate (Eagles defensive coordinator) Jim Johnson. His guys are all having success. Look at (Ravens head coach) John Harbaugh, Spags, (Vikings defensive coordinator) Leslie Frazier and 'Chico' (Chargers defensive coordinator Ron Rivera).

 

“If I’m an owner, that’s the pipeline I want.”

 

 

 

Notice- no mention of Perry Fewell and the Triple A Bills.

Must say I hate the cover2. I firmly believe the Bills should build a a big physical defense that other teams would hate to play in Buffalo in December and January.

A defense based solely on speed is negated when the terrible weather conditions arrive.

[BuffaloBill]

the “Tampa 2” defense has lost a lot of luster in league circles as Tony Dungy’s disciples — Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards and Rod Marinelli— have all struggled running the single-gap attack that is designed to limit big plays.

 

“Monte Kiffin is the only guy who could run that defense effectively, and he had 13 years as a coordinator (with the Buccaneers),” a veteran personnel evaluator said. “Now everyone is trying to emulate (Eagles defensive coordinator) Jim Johnson. His guys are all having success. Look at (Ravens head coach) John Harbaugh, Spags, (Vikings defensive coordinator) Leslie Frazier and 'Chico' (Chargers defensive coordinator Ron Rivera).

 

“If I’m an owner, that’s the pipeline I want.”

 

 

 

Notice- no mention of Perry Fewell and the Triple A Bills.

Must say I hate the cover2. I firmly believe the Bills should build a a big physical defense that other teams would hate to playin Buffalo in December and January.

A defense based solely on speed is negated when the terrible weather conditions arrive.

 

 

I am not a fan of the Tampa - 2. I do not think it is a stretch to look at a conversion to a base 4-3 package given the Bills current personnel. The Bills are not well positioned to go to a 3-4 scheme with their current people. Regardless of any possible change DE situation must be addressed. Pass rush is pathetic and until this changes they are essentially playing zombie scheme.

[JStranger76]

Yep, the speed rushing ends become a non-factor in nasty weather, but are sure great to have if you reach the Super Bowl. The key is to find the right balance, which is tough. I started a thread about drafting BJ Raji even though my personal #1 choice would probably be Everett Brown. In nasty weather January games, a DT is probably more important than a DE.

[keepthefaith]

the “Tampa 2” defense has lost a lot of luster in league circles as Tony Dungy’s disciples — Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards and Rod Marinelli— have all struggled running the single-gap attack that is designed to limit big plays.

 

“Monte Kiffin is the only guy who could run that defense effectively, and he had 13 years as a coordinator (with the Buccaneers),” a veteran personnel evaluator said. “Now everyone is trying to emulate (Eagles defensive coordinator) Jim Johnson. His guys are all having success. Look at (Ravens head coach) John Harbaugh, Spags, (Vikings defensive coordinator) Leslie Frazier and 'Chico' (Chargers defensive coordinator Ron Rivera).

 

“If I’m an owner, that’s the pipeline I want.”

 

 

 

Notice- no mention of Perry Fewell and the Triple A Bills.

Must say I hate the cover2. I firmly believe the Bills should build a a big physical defense that other teams would hate to playin Buffalo in December and January.

A defense based solely on speed is negated when the terrible weather conditions arrive.

 

Jauron fears every opposing offense. The Tampa 2 defense is lower risk which supports Jauron's need to reduce his own fear and aversion to risk.

[H2o]

The Raji, Stroud combo would be the best we've had around here since Williams and Adams. Maybe we would actually be able to stop the opposing team's RB's. Whether it be their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th string

[Fixxxer]

I !@#$ing hate the Coward2, I always liked the 3-4 defense.

[Tortured Soul]

That list is deceiving. Not only have Kiffin and Dungy had success with the Tampa 2, but Dungy met Lovie Smith in the Superbowl, where he was running that defense. Kansas City and Detroit, on the other hand, don't have the personnel to do well with any defense.

 

And why give John Harbaugh credit? Rex Ryan has been running the same defense in Baltimore since Marvin Lewis left. Ron Rivera's defense only improved from 22 to 18 when he took over, not exactly a world-changing move. And Leslie Frazier inherited a defense with the Williams Wall. I'd attribute most of its improvement this year to Jared Allen (who did just as well in Herm's defense) than anything Frazier did.

 

Oh, and the triple-A Bills defense was 14th in yards and points, missing its top pass rusher most of the season, missing arguably its best linebacker the whole season, and a slew of injuries in the secondary.

[jonramz]

Miiny actually runs the tampa-2... the key is a top notch DL, not that much of a secret

[Sisyphean Bills]

The scheme is one thing, but it seems like that Jauron and Fewell have tried to mimic Dungy's "smaller speedier" implementation as well. The trouble with that is it is a poor run defense, especially against teams with a solid power ground game. If the offense can't get out to a big lead and force the opponent out of their ground game, the defense can get steam rolled. And that has been the Achilles' heel of the Colts for quite some time. The Bills offense is nothing like the Colts offense, so the chances of jumping out to a big lead are remote. The Bills implementation of the cover 2 is further weakened by the fact they have nowhere close to the necessary athletes up front to bring pressure with their front 4. So even if they can force an opponent to be one-dimensional offense, that team can still move the ball almost at will. See the Chiefs game. Forcing an opponent to slowly march down the field very methodically is great when you have Peyton Manning and have blown out to a 3 score lead. Not so much, when you're behind by a score or two late in the 4th quarter.

[BillsVet]

A defense based solely on speed is negated when the terrible weather conditions arrive.

 

I think the T2/C2 defenses depend on specialized personnel so much, that unless you have them it's tough to run that defense effectively. A 3-4 or standard 4-3 isn't as dependent on specialized players, particularly LB's who can go into zone defense, yet be fast enough to attack the LOS.

 

The old Tampa Bay teams had great players with DT's Booger McFarland and Warren Sapp, WLB Derrick Brooks, SS John Lynch, MLB Shelton Quarles, and DE Simeon Rice. Those guys fit their scheme perfectly, and were acquired with the T2 in mind.

 

Pittsburgh did the same thing with DT Joe Greene, DE L.C. Greenwood, MLB Lambert, WLB Ham, SLB Andy Russell, and SS Mike Wagner. Mel Blount was an excellent CB, and probably would fit into a C2 today.

 

The point is, player specialization is greater in the C2.

 

Buffalo doesn't have the top personnel, and so it makes it hard to adapt the players to the scheme. I think the hardest positions to find for a C2 defense is a 3 tech DT and a WLB. Their skill set is very rare.

[H2o]

I !@#$ing hate the Coward2, I always liked the 3-4 defense.

 

I agree 100% with that. This year would be the best year to switch back to that with the FA's that are available. There are some key components that would be available at the LB positions and at the DE positions that would be able to help us transition. People like Suggs, Canty, Bart Scott, Eric Barton, Vilma, Peppers, Crowder, Kevin Carter, Tommie Harris, Bertrand Berry, Haynesworth, Dansby, Boley, and others. It would be a prime opportunity to cash in if we wanted to make that change.

[All_Pro_Bills]

Whatever they want to call the Bills defense it doesn't seem to be working. When watching on TV I sit and wonder, unclear why the receiver always seems to catch the ball with no defender in the picture. After he takes about 3 or 4 running steps with the ball the viewer then gets the idea that there actually are defensive backs on the field as they finally show up to make a tackle 20 yards downfield.

 

Its time to dump this scheme....

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I think the T2/C2 defenses depend on specialized personnel so much, that unless you have them it's tough to run that defense effectively. A 3-4 or standard 4-3 isn't as dependent on specialized players, particularly LB's who can go into zone defense, yet be fast enough to attack the LOS.

 

Bingo.

 

You want to know a mark of a terrible defensive scheme? It's the need to have specialized or star players at every position. I'd rather have a defense where you can have marginal talent at some spots, but still effectively run the defense.

 

For instance, remember the old Wade Phillips 3-4 we used to play circa 2000? We had 4 average LB's; a great NT; a bulky but average DE; a great (but aging) DE in Bruce; then a fairly average secondary. Yet, we were a top-ten defense.

 

Greggo comes in and has us run his 46 Defense--which we could never quite do since it requires exceptional DT's, DE's, safeties, and LB's in order to run.

 

Tampa 2 requires exceptional speed rushers, athletic but stout DT's, great LB's, and shut-down corners. No wonder we've had problems.

 

Personally, I'd like to see us go back to a the bend-but-don't-break 3-4 scheme, although we obviously don't have the personnel for it.

[bizell]

JR - T2 doesn't require shut-down corners. i'd say you could get by with just 'decent' guys @ corner in a good C2.

[BuffaloBill]

Bingo.

 

(Describing the tampa -2) need to have specialized or star players at every position.

 

I would agree up to a point - Tampa 2 demphasizes corner play so there is some relief there. Sadly, the Bills continue to focus on DB's in the draft.

 

Also does not require stud pass rushing LB's (although middle LB in Tampa -2 is more critical). D-Line play is critical in Tampa-2 scheme and this is where the Bills have been woefully short. D-line is supposed to be penetrating and disruptive.

 

I personally believe the weakness of the Tampa -2 is the fact that it is not as effective against the run game. This is an absolute must in the conditions the Bills are likely to play in come October, November and December (not worth mentioning th e possibility of a game at the ralph in january - hasn't happened in a decade).

 

It is the wrong defense for the Bills but as long as jauron is around it is not likely to change.

[BillsVet]

Tampa 2 requires exceptional speed rushers, athletic but stout DT's, great LB's, and shut-down corners. No wonder we've had problems.

 

Personally, I'd like to see us go back to a the bend-but-don't-break 3-4 scheme, although we obviously don't have the personnel for it.

 

We're back again to the argument of whether the scheme should be adapted to the players or vice-versa. But to some DC's who have experience in one defense, it's not as easy. Mike Nolan will probably get the GB DC job, and he's accustomed to running any type of defense.

 

Nolan perhaps to GB

 

I do disagree with one of your points. The T2 doesn't need great shutdown CB's, but rather guys who with quickness to break on the ball in zone coverage. They're essential to run defense, and must be bigger than M2M cover guys.

[Beerball]

Jauron fears every opposing offense. The Tampa 2 defense is lower risk which supports Jauron's need to reduce his own fear and aversion to risk.

It's tough to win in the NFL even if you execute really really well on Friday because the interesting weather tends to distract the Bills players.

[Haven Moses]

Until we get a pass rush and a better FS, we're stupid not to play a Tampa 2.

[marauderswr80]

Is the Tampa 2 designed to let teams with 3rd & 15's get first downs? Cause this year, that all it did for us.....

[BobChalmers]

The T2 doesn't need great shutdown CB's, but rather guys who with quickness to break on the ball in zone coverage. They're essential to run defense, and must be bigger than M2M cover guys.

 

Right - saying the T2 needs shut-down corners is essentially saying you don't know what the T2 is. Sorry.

 

As multiple others have stated - it definitely demands pass rush from the DL with less blitzing, so obviously the Bills had issues.

 

ALL SCHEMES NEED SPECIAL PLAYERS

 

Here's the most important thing with evaluating any scheme:

 

How many of the players your scheme wants are coming out of college, and how many teams are you competing with to get those players.

 

Whoever adopts a different scheme first has a big advantage in the NFL. Jumping on a current bandwagon is the worst thing you can do. You want to have your pick of guys that other teams don't have the scheme to use.

 

If the T2 is falling from favor - but not because of a rule change or something that makes it specifically flawed - then you want to jump on it - you'll be competing with fewer teams come draft day to get your guys.

 

The 3-4 is in vogue right now - great - let the rest of the AFC East compete with each other and the rest of the league for large dominant NT's and full-sized DE's.

 

Having said all that, the McKelvin pick - and I love how he played - is pretty non-sensical. It's like they're still drafting for Greg Williams' 46 defense (which absolutely required dominant cover corners as they were constantly left alone in single man coverage).