Terry Tate Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 As with Debbies connections to virtually everything that happens in the world, I had intimate involvement with that little operation. That's why I didn't respond. I think Bush is trapped on this one. Anything he says is going to backfire. He knows the UN is pig crap, but if he gets reelected he has to still deal with them at some level. And the UN loving hot pockets will discount any of it. And, once again, a lot of the info that could help him is quite sensitive. 91494[/snapback] Well, maybe John Kerry will be elected and everyone will like us again. UN: US, you look marvelous! US: It's better to look good than to feel good, UN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 What countries is he talking about outside France, Russia, Germany and the countries already involved in Iraq? If he's trying to make a point about some specific countries why wouldn't he name them? 91499[/snapback] He's not usually speaking about specific countries but any and all countries including the ones mentioned. The main problem with this war, IMO, was that the vast, vast, vast majority of the world's governments and populations were against it, and the vast, vast, vast majority of the world's governments and populations for the Afghanistan war and the Gulf War. The rest of the world doesn't have to love us, they just shouldn't believe we are imperialist intruders trying to shove our culture and government on people and that's exactly what it looks like. Turkey would have been a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 The French are scumbags and everyone everywhere knows it. If you got the rest of the world behind you they would put up a stink and buckle under the pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 He's not usually speaking about specific countries but any and all countries including the ones mentioned. The main problem with this war, IMO, was that the vast, vast, vast majority of the world's governments and populations were against it, and the vast, vast, vast majority of the world's governments and populations for the Afghanistan war and the Gulf War. The rest of the world doesn't have to love us, they just shouldn't believe we are imperialist intruders trying to shove our culture and government on people and that's exactly what it looks like. Turkey would have been a good one. 91509[/snapback] Unfortunately, this conversation is dragging us right back into the Global War on Terror. What we have to do is never going to be popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Unfortunately, this conversation is dragging us right back into the Global War on Terror. What we have to do is never going to be popular. 91514[/snapback] We could wait for another 9/11 and then everyone in the world would wave little American flags for us again. Well, maybe, seeing as how a significant portion of the world believed we had 9/11 coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Unfortunately, this conversation is dragging us right back into the Global War on Terror. What we have to do is never going to be popular. 91514[/snapback] There are millions of people that hate us and want us dead, and there are numerous governments that do, of course. But the vast majority of the world does not hate us enough to kill us, they are just jealous. They are against terrorists, too. Post 9/11 support for the US proved it. We win the overall war on terror with their help, not just blowing regimes and countries up. This is NOT the way to go about it, IMO, and others opinions with ten billion times more knowledge and experience in the arena than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 This is NOT the way to go about it, IMO, and others opinions with ten billion times more knowledge and experience in the arena than me. 91519[/snapback] Huh. So what explains those with ten billion times more knowledge and experience in the arena that disagree with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Huh. So what explains those with ten billion times more knowledge and experience in the arena that disagree with you? 91521[/snapback] They are educated, experienced, stupid and wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 There are millions of people that hate us and want us dead, and there are numerous governments that do, of course. But the vast majority of the world does not hate us enough to kill us, they are just jealous. They are against terrorists, too. Post 9/11 support for the US proved it. We win the overall war on terror with their help, not just blowing regimes and countries up. This is NOT the way to go about it, IMO, and others opinions with ten billion times more knowledge and experience in the arena than me. 91519[/snapback] I've never said that the operation in Iraq wasn't flawed. It has plenty of flaws. However, the decision to be there is strategically sound. I have brought up the fact that in GWOT, we get plenty of cooperation from most everyone on earth, to include France. What has to be stopped cold is the Islamic Fundamentalist movement. That will only happen by force. It's been opined on many times as to how does one win the war on terror. That's how, but no politician in his right mind is going to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 They educated, experienced, stupid and wrong? 91527[/snapback] That's my favorite part about this board, when someone calls someone else stupid while making spelling and grammatical errors. It never gets old. I guess I'm just easily amused. "Some people have a way with words, and some people no have way" - Robin Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I can't keep track anymore of who is on who's side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I've never said that the operation in Iraq wasn't flawed. It has plenty of flaws. However, the decision to be there is strategically sound. I have brought up the fact that in GWOT, we get plenty of cooperation from most everyone on earth, to include France. What has to be stopped cold is the Islamic Fundamentalist movement. That will only happen by force. It's been opined on many times as to how does one win the war on terror. That's how, but no politician in his right mind is going to say that. 91528[/snapback] I value and respect your opinion on this stuff. I really do. And contrary to most people, I have very strong opinions on things but that doesn't mean that I believe I am right. They are only opinions and I could be very wrong. Most of these things we're talking about don't have right or wrong answers they only have opinions. I agree with much of what you say, on this and all kinds of other fronts. My main problem is that I think Bush's way of handling things, which started from day one of his administration, was to put people off that we needed by his arrogance and my way or the highway mad cowboy disease. It doesn't mean I am a pacifist or love France or that I'm anti-American. I hate fukking France. I just think that it was totally unnecessary to what I consider blowing off the rest of the world with our bully tactics when we need them to help us even though we are the biggest, baddest, most benevolent, most generous, most right, most righteous, most powerful, most do-good nation in the history of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 The rest of the world doesn't have to love us, they just shouldn't believe we are imperialist intruders trying to shove our culture and government on people and that's exactly what it looks like. Turkey would have been a good one. 91509[/snapback] But Turkey was supportive of the effort. IIRC, they backed out at the last minute because the US wouldn't guarantee that it would not support the ethnic Kurds in NE Turkey, if Turkey tried to squash their drive to reunite with the Kurds in Iraq. Their rationale for not getting involved was much more self serving than any altruistic or reactionary measure to USA's motives or global ambitions. You can deride the simpleminded criticism of France as the prime culprit, but the reason they're whipping boy no. 1, is that they do the most work of our "allies" in fomenting opposition to the US's positions around the world. Can't say I don't blame them for fighting to stay relevant, but I also won't characterize their action as one of seeking world harmony over blatant self interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 That's my favorite part about this board, when someone calls someone else stupid while making spelling and grammatical errors. It never gets old. I guess I'm just easily amused. "Some people have a way with words, and some people no have way" - Robin Williams 91537[/snapback] I corrected it. Thanks. By the way, there weren't any spelling errors and you should put periods at the end of sentences in quotes if you're going to criticize someone's "grammatical errors". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 But Turkey was supportive of the effort. IIRC, they backed out at the last minute because the US wouldn't guarantee that it would not support the ethnic Kurds in NE Turkey, if Turkey tried to squash their drive to reunite with the Kurds in Iraq. Their rationale for not getting involved was much more self serving than any altruistic or reactionary measure to USA's motives or global ambitions. You can deride the simpleminded criticism of France as the prime culprit, but the reason they're whipping boy no. 1, is that they do the most work of our "allies" in fomenting opposition to the US's positions around the world. Can't say I don't blame them for fighting to stay relevant, but I also won't characterize their action as one of seeking world harmony over blatant self interest. 91545[/snapback] I don't and never have characterized their actions as one of seeking world harmony over blatant self interest. I haven't seen the Democratic candidate or party or anyone else for that matter really say that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 I value and respect your opinion on this stuff. I really do. And contrary to most people, I have very strong opinions on things but that doesn't mean that I believe I am right. They are only opinions and I could be very wrong. Most of these things we're talking about don'[t have right or wrong answers they only have opinions. I aree with much of what you say, on this and all kinds of other fronts. My main problem is that I think Bush's way of handling things, which started from day one of his administration, was to put people off that we needed by his arrogance and my way or the highway mad cowboy disease. It doesn't mean I am a pacifist or love France or anti-American. I hate fukking France. I just think that it was totally unnecessary to what I consider blowing off the rest of the world with our bully tactics when we need them to help us even though we are the biggest, baddest, most benevolent, most generous, most right, most righteous, most powerful, most do-good nation in the history of the world. 91542[/snapback] Which brings us back to the UN. We don't hold much sway there. They are not our friends. And people don't get that in this crazy little world of ours, people can be for you and against you at the same time. I also go back to self interest. If it were in Frances, Germanys or Russias self interest to help us invade Iraq, there would have been plenty of troops there. As they were the ones, among others illegally supporting Iraq, there wasn't much incentive to get involved. By allying between themselves, they gained the upperhand for their own little agendas. Europe is gradually becoming islamified. They are playing quite a different game there. I wish to God we had done Iraq better, because it's only one step of several in this journey. Kerry hasn't said anything yet that leads me to believe he even understands the problems, let alone has a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Which brings us back to the UN. We don't hold much sway there. They are not our friends. And people don't get that in this crazy little world of ours, people can be for you and against you at the same time. I also go back to self interest. If it were in Frances, Germanys or Russias self interest to help us invade Iraq, there would have been plenty of troops there. As they were the ones, among others illegally supporting Iraq, there wasn't much incentive to get involved. By allying between themselves, they gained the upperhand for their own little agendas. Europe is gradually becoming islamified. They are playing quite a different game there. I wish to God we had done Iraq better, because it's only one step of several in this journey. Kerry hasn't said anything yet that leads me to believe he even understands the problems, let alone has a solution. 91563[/snapback] One way that it would have been in France and Germany and Russia's self-interest to help us invade Iraq is if we would have included them in the reconstruction contracts. Bush came out early with his if you're not with us you're against us crap. Those countries likely could have made more billions legitimately than they had been stealing all along. I am not saying just that incident would have swayed them, but it was another in a seemingly endless series of Bush's tactics that led the rest of the world against us on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I don't and never have characterized their actions as one of seeking world harmony over blatant self interest. I haven't seen the Democratic candidate or party or anyone else for that matter really say that either. 91559[/snapback] Nor would I expect them to. However, I don't buy the rhetoric that says that US action isn't justified because certain allies don't support it, when those allies' self interest is diametrically opposite of the USA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 One way that it would have been in France and Germany and Russia's self-interest to help us invade Iraq is if we would have included them in the reconstruction contracts. Bush came out early with his if you're not with us you're against us crap. Those countries likely could have made more billions legitimately than they had been stealing all along. I am not saying just that incident would have swayed them, but it was another in a seemingly endless series of Bush's tactics that led the rest of the world against us on this. 91569[/snapback] That was offered. They didn't want any part of the war effort, but wanted to be included on reconstruction. We basically said you play, you get payed. You don't, you don't. KBR is losing money hand over fist over there right now. There's no big windfall to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 KBR is losing money hand over fist over there right now. There's no big windfall to anyone. 91576[/snapback] No, you are wrong. The talking box keeps telling me that Cheney is making oodles of money due to the connections to Haliburton and the reconstruction contracts. Please get your facts straight before posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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