Lack of Play Action calls is not surprising or wrong by coaches

[Chuckknox]

Who are you fooling with the fake if they know you are not willing or able to throw deep patterns? The safetys are moving up 90% of the time to help with the run support of help with the dump off passes to the RB. You have to be able to pass the longer patterns to take advantage of a defense that is moving up towards the LOS.

 

We are much better with a 2 tight ends (that can catch the ball) and run the ball mix with TE strong points - the ability to hit the fast short patterns. Let the tight ends help with the 8 in the box defenses team love to use against us.

 

We really have not figured a way to use Roscoe's skills yet, but it's tough because the defenses are not afraid to crowd the LOS against the Bills.

 

If the Bills want to keep Trent as the #1, the have to make some adjustments to hide his weakness (not able/willing to look down field) and design more of west coast offense (may not be good for winter games) or power run offense .

[BillsVet]

You're missing the obvious. If you run a PA pass, it means the QB has to turn his back to the DL. And with Preston and Fowler acting as tissue paper to protect the QB, that was a turnover waiting to happen.

 

It's why they rarely ran PA against teams with good DT's. The Jets, Patsies, and Brownies come to mind.

[Sisyphean Bills]

You're missing the obvious. If you run a PA pass, it means the QB has to turn his back to the DL. And with Preston and Fowler acting as tissue paper to protect the QB, that was a turnover waiting to happen.

 

It's why they rarely ran PA against teams with good DT's. The Jets, Patsies, and Brownies come to mind.

Kind of comical isn't it? The Bills are paying Derrick Dockery $49M/yr, the highest paid OL in Bills history, and then perhaps decide they are required to neuter their offense in various ways because they can't control the interior of the offensive line.

[BillsVet]

Kind of comical isn't it? The Bills are paying Derrick Dockery $49M/yr, the highest paid OL in Bills history, and then perhaps decide they are required to neuter their offense in various ways because they can't control the interior of the offensive line.

 

Dockery and Walker inhibit more than help their QB and OC. Dockery and Walker are too of the most immobile OL I've seen on this team. It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for their salaries. Walker is so slow, especially on the toss plays, that they can't call them.

 

Preston and Fowler were barely NFL caliber, and it showed. Running up the middle with a power back like Lynch was a guaranteed loser. I read somewhere that Lynch was stopped for no gain 26 times this season, tops in the NFL.

 

Yet after an infusion of 100M, this OL isn't much better than the one JPL lined up behind in 2006. Thanks again Marv, Dick, Russ, and of course Ralphie.

[BuffaloBill]

Who are you fooling with the fake if they know you are not willing or able to throw deep patterns? The safetys are moving up 90% of the time to help with the run support of help with the dump off passes to the RB. You have to be able to pass the longer patterns to take advantage of a defense that is moving up towards the LOS.

 

Problem with your premise is that the run game sets up play action. The coaches did not call it because they were stupid.

 

 

We really have not figured a way to use Roscoe's skills yet, but it's tough because the defenses are not afraid to crowd the LOS against the Bills.

 

 

Please .. Roscoe has had five years to prove he is an NFL wide receiver. He is not. Let's face up to this fact and move on. If the Bills want to retain him as a specialist fine. Please look at his WR stats. The will show you point blank that the guy does not play well enough to be on the field with the offense. Add to this he has been injury prone.

 

If the Bills want to keep Trent as the #1, the have to make some adjustments to hide his weakness (not able/willing to look down field) and design more of west coast offense (may not be good for winter games) or power run offense .

 

Lee Evans was 15th in the league for 20+ yard receptions. He may have been higher if he played in a good weather stadium. The stats do not prove the idea that Trent can't or will not throw the long ball. I think all of this thought process is a leftover from the fact that JP does have a cannon. So what, he is inaccurate. Listen to what Bellicheat said in a recent press conference about why Cassell was playing so well - "The two most important qualities in an NFL quarterback are decision making and accuracy." Trent can be very accurate. His decision making has to improve.

[Beerball]

Who are you fooling with the fake if they know you are not willing or able to throw deep patterns? The safetys are moving up 90% of the time to help with the run support of help with the dump off passes to the RB. You have to be able to pass the longer patterns to take advantage of a defense that is moving up towards the LOS.

 

We are much better with a 2 tight ends (that can catch the ball) and run the ball mix with TE strong points - the ability to hit the fast short patterns. Let the tight ends help with the 8 in the box defenses team love to use against us.

 

We really have not figured a way to use Roscoe's skills yet, but it's tough because the defenses are not afraid to crowd the LOS against the Bills.

 

If the Bills want to keep Trent as the #1, the have to make some adjustments to hide his weakness (not able/willing to look down field) and design more of west coast offense (may not be good for winter games) or power run offense .

Wow, didn't realize play action could only be used for deep throws.

 

So, you can't throw to the TE after play action?

So, you can't throw to the RB after faking to him?

So, you can't throw an out after play action?

So, you can't throw a drag route after play action?

So, you can't hit the slot receiver in the seam after play action?

 

Learning all the time.

[BuffaloBill]

Wow, didn't realize play action could only be used for deep throws.

 

So, you can't throw to the TE after play action?

So, you can't throw to the RB after faking to him?

So, you can't throw an out after play action?

So, you can't throw a drag route after play action?

So, you can't hit the slot receiver in the seam after play action?

 

Learning all the time.

 

 

Thank you ...

 

Not sure why so many people that post to this board are so enamored with the long ball. I really believe it is because of the JP hangover. JP could throw long - so what? He could not hit an open receiver 10 yards down the field because he consistently over or under threw them. Good riddance to him and the innaccurate gunslinger mentality.

[thebandit27]

Dockery and Walker inhibit more than help their QB and OC. Dockery and Walker are too of the most immobile OL I've seen on this team. It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for their salaries. Walker is so slow, especially on the toss plays, that they can't call them.

 

Preston and Fowler were barely NFL caliber, and it showed. Running up the middle with a power back like Lynch was a guaranteed loser. I read somewhere that Lynch was stopped for no gain 26 times this season, tops in the NFL.

 

Yet after an infusion of 100M, this OL isn't much better than the one JPL lined up behind in 2006. Thanks again Marv, Dick, Russ, and of course Ralphie.

 

I'm not trying to stir the o-line pot here, but I have to mention that--while the pass blocking has clearly been a deficiency over the long haul--the run blocking seemed to improve dramatically the 2nd half of the season. The team turned in some very effective rushing performances down the stretch. That includes games against tough run fronts like New England (in a game where both teams did practically nothing but run) and the Jets.

 

I don't necessarily believe that the talent level on the line is up to par, I don't think that physical ability is the main problem. These guys need some coaching...bad. Watch their pass blocking back-to-back with other teams. On a play-action pass, New England's line moves in unison--setting up their decoy run block assignments, then smoothly dropping into pass protection. Seamless. The Bills look like a disorganized group of children.

 

The coaching staff could definitely utilize play action more. There's no reason not to.

[BillsVet]

I'm not trying to stir the o-line pot here, but I have to mention that--while the pass blocking has clearly been a deficiency over the long haul--the run blocking seemed to improve dramatically the 2nd half of the season. The team turned in some very effective rushing performances down the stretch. That includes games against tough run fronts like New England (in a game where both teams did practically nothing but run) and the Jets.

 

I don't necessarily believe that the talent level on the line is up to par, I don't think that physical ability is the main problem. These guys need some coaching...bad. Watch their pass blocking back-to-back with other teams. On a play-action pass, New England's line moves in unison--setting up their decoy run block assignments, then smoothly dropping into pass protection. Seamless. The Bills look like a disorganized group of children.

 

The coaching staff could definitely utilize play action more. There's no reason not to.

 

The run blocking was an anomaly against NE. Running the ball against CLE when they dropped 8 into coverage is not something to brag about. KC was a terrible defense as well. For some reason the OL got a hair up their rear end playing the NYJ, who embarrassed them 6 weeks prior. But they couldn't run against MIA in TOR, and Denver's run defense was one of the worst in the NFL. No matter how you slice it, they were too inconsistent this season. Lynch was stuffed for no gain 26 times this season, most in the NFL.

 

The run blocking stinks because their lineman are fat immobile types who can't move. I've watched Dockery run, and he's slow as molasses. Walker needs to lose a lot of weight, and I wouldn't be surprised if both were over their listed weights. Bigger isn't better on the OL. When I watch the Giants, Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie all can move.

 

If Jim McNally couldn't coach this OL into respectability, no one will. The lack of talent was evident all too often, and with a tougher schedule, will be even more obvious next year.

 

They need a center who can move in run blocking and hold their own in pass blocking. They need to sign Peters to a long term contract. They'll eventually need a better RT, tell Dockery to drop some weight because he's unable to be released, and probably add another guard.

[thebandit27]

The run blocking was an anomaly against NE. Running the ball against CLE when they dropped 8 into coverage is not something to brag about. KC was a terrible defense as well. For some reason the OL got a hair up their rear end playing the NYJ, who embarrassed them 6 weeks prior. But they couldn't run against MIA in TOR, and Denver's run defense was one of the worst in the NFL. No matter how you slice it, they were too inconsistent this season. Lynch was stuffed for no gain 26 times this season, most in the NFL.

 

The run blocking stinks because their lineman are fat immobile types who can't move. I've watched Dockery run, and he's slow as molasses. Walker needs to lose a lot of weight, and I wouldn't be surprised if both were over their listed weights. Bigger isn't better on the OL. When I watch the Giants, Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie all can move.

 

If Jim McNally couldn't coach this OL into respectability, no one will. The lack of talent was evident all too often, and with a tougher schedule, will be even more obvious next year.

 

They need a center who can move in run blocking and hold their own in pass blocking. They need to sign Peters to a long term contract. They'll eventually need a better RT, tell Dockery to drop some weight because he's unable to be released, and probably add another guard.

 

I just don't think you can blame it on having too many big guys. Carolina has as big an o-line as Buffalo and doesn't seem to have too much trouble moving people. I agree center should be an upgraded position, but I'm not sure the rest of them couldn't do their jobs better with better coaching.

[spartacus]

Dockery and Walker inhibit more than help their QB and OC. Dockery and Walker are too of the most immobile OL I've seen on this team. It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for their salaries. Walker is so slow, especially on the toss plays, that they can't call them.

 

Preston and Fowler were barely NFL caliber, and it showed. Running up the middle with a power back like Lynch was a guaranteed loser. I read somewhere that Lynch was stopped for no gain 26 times this season, tops in the NFL.

 

Yet after an infusion of 100M, this OL isn't much better than the one JPL lined up behind in 2006. Thanks again Marv, Dick, Russ, and of course Ralphie.

 

you left off thanks to Modrak and Guy - the 2 guys most responsible for evaluating the talent on this and other teams.

 

For $49 mi, real football studs like Hutchinson and Steinbach could have been had.

 

or they could have drafted Brandon Albert to immediately upgrade the line.

[spartacus]

I just don't think you can blame it on having too many big guys. Carolina has as big an o-line as Buffalo and doesn't seem to have too much trouble moving people. I agree center should be an upgraded position, but I'm not sure the rest of them couldn't do their jobs better with better coaching.

 

Fat, slow and stupid is no substitute for talented OL players

[Conch]

k

[Conch]

I spoke with an nfl head coach. He said with an o-line that huge send them straight ahead to get on their blocks and drive downfield. The bills go sideways with their schemes. The schemes don't fit the players strengths which is size.

[bflobarry]

Re: play action- Did anyone else notice that, frequently, on 3rd and one, we would go empty backfield? This is where play action could be so helpful. With an empty backfield, the D line says "thank you!", b/c now they've just got a free pass on worrying AT ALL about their run lane. All they have to do is tee-off on the QB. I've heard more than one analyst question why we do this. Am I missing something? Surely pro coordinadors (Turk) must be aware of this, no?...

[thebandit27]

Fat, slow and stupid is no substitute for talented OL players

 

A great deal of offensive lineman in the NFL are probably what you would consider fat.

 

Look, if you talk to any NFL GM, coach, or player, they'll tell you that physical talent rarely ever separates the good teams from the bad ones. It's almost always about coaching. The Bills' lineman display poor footwork and an inability to identify assignments in both pass protection and in zone-blocking on running plays.

 

Lastly, these guys are NOT stupid. Langston Walker graduated from Berkely. I know that's a better academic school than the one I went to, and I'm certainly not stupid. Not a single one of the others left school early either, they all graduated. You're going to have a very hard time convincing me that college graduates are not capable of picking up a game plan. Now, if that plan is flawed by not catering to the abilities of the individuals on the team, it would certainly make sense that the players look out of place in it.

 

I maintain that, to a man, the Bills are not outclassed talent-wise on the offensive line by very many teams. The line, like every other aspect of the team, simply needs to be put into a system that maximizes their abilities and minimizes their deficiencies. That's the coaching staff's job; they haven't done it.

[thebandit27]

I spoke with an nfl head coach. He said with an o-line that huge send them straight ahead to get on their blocks and drive downfield. The bills go sideways with their schemes. The schemes don't fit the players strengths which is size.

 

You know, you're not the first person I've heard that from (although I guess I technically didn't "hear" it from you).

 

A life-long friend of mine works for the AP in Buffalo, and regularly attends home games in the press box at RWS (he has a seat very close to Jerry Sullivan--ugh). This individual told me that a prominent NFL lineman was in the box for the 49ers game, and marveled aloud at the team's blocking scheme, which--in his words--had these guys "tap dancing around out there". I'm not very good at identifying blocking schemes, but it sure does seem that the team doesn't attempt to do a whole lot of drive blocking. Maybe that's part of the problem too.

[stuckincincy]

You're missing the obvious. If you run a PA pass, it means the QB has to turn his back to the DL. And with Preston and Fowler acting as tissue paper to protect the QB, that was a turnover waiting to happen.

 

It's why they rarely ran PA against teams with good DT's. The Jets, Patsies, and Brownies come to mind.

 

That back turning is the norm when a QB plants the ball into a running back.

 

PA is useful today when a QB has a good "sell" move dropping back, when you have a back with respected hands, recievers that come back or are quick to get open short etc. Having a LH qb helps.

 

You can run all the PA you like if your OL can execute a whiff of Hank Stram's "moving pocket" and your QB has some lateral movement skills, even if he's not a particularly good faker.

[Adam]

Problem with your premise is that the run game sets up play action. The coaches did not call it because they were stupid.

 

 

Please .. Roscoe has had five years to prove he is an NFL wide receiver. He is not. Let's face up to this fact and move on. If the Bills want to retain him as a specialist fine. Please look at his WR stats. The will show you point blank that the guy does not play well enough to be on the field with the offense. Add to this he has been injury prone.

 

Lee Evans was 15th in the league for 20+ yard receptions. He may have been higher if he played in a good weather stadium. The stats do not prove the idea that Trent can't or will not throw the long ball. I think all of this thought process is a leftover from the fact that JP does have a cannon. So what, he is inaccurate. Listen to what Bellicheat said in a recent press conference about why Cassell was playing so well - "The two most important qualities in an NFL quarterback are decision making and accuracy." Trent can be very accurate. His decision making has to improve.

Parrish is a decent slot guy who can do something with the ball if he gets it. He is nowhere near what a lot of people think- I almost drove off the road when we drafted him- nothing special at Miami