Boomer860 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Not registering prisoners by name IS a war crime. Not registering number of prisoners held IS a war crime. Not following the Geneva Conventions IS a war crime. I don't think I need you to tell me what to talk about. How about that ghost prisoner who offered no resistance- he was handcuffed, shackled to a wall and hung in a torture position....when the guards came back to "interrogate" him, they were "surprised" to see him dead with blood pouring out of his mouth. If we are fighting a war against terrorism, the culprits of this act should be locked away Must be you have seen all that information on CNN . Like I said , join the military , go to war and then comment. The culprits as you call them should receive the ultimate punishment ,just like they would do to you . What you dont understand is they are cold blooded killers and could care less what anyone says. They don't reflect , they don't care about the Geneva convention or anyone else normal people care about. What they care about is killing you ....period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Must be you have seen all that information on CNN . Like I said , join the military , go to war and then comment. The culprits as you call them should receive the ultimate punishment ,just like they would do to you . What you dont understand is they are cold blooded killers and could care less what anyone says. They don't reflect , they don't care about the Geneva convention or anyone else normal people care about. What they care about is killing you ....period. It's always fun to watch moral relativism argue with moral absolutism, particularly when neither has the first clue what they're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Not if they're not POWs. Again, the status of captured members of al Qaeda is ambiguous as extra-nationals fighting a nation-state. And before you go off on me...in addition to saying that before, I've also said that Congress should make the determination that while the Geneva Convention does NOT apply to such prisoners, they should nonetheless as a matter of national law be entitled to the same rights and privileges embodied in the convention. I just happen to understand that the situation is FAR more legally ambiguous than your black-and-white declarations. (Note: I'm talking about Gitmo, not Abu Ghraib, which is a somewhat different story.) I agree with you- I think. While its easy to want to carve the enemy up, that is not what we do. Torture isn't even an effective means of interrogation. We flat out murdered some of them without a trial- something we would comdemn anyone else for. Must be you have seen all that information on CNN . Like I said , join the military , go to war and then comment. The culprits as you call them should receive the ultimate punishment ,just like they would do to you . What you dont understand is they are cold blooded killers and could care less what anyone says. They don't reflect , they don't care about the Geneva convention or anyone else normal people care about. What they care about is killing you ....period. Look sunshine, I know you mean well, but you have no clue where I got my information from. I do understand thatthey are coldblooded killers- and I said from the beginning that my biggest fear was that we would become what they are. While I don't condone what our military officers or interrogaters did, they were put into a situation in which this was supposed to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I agree with you- I think. While its easy to want to carve the enemy up, that is not what we do. Torture isn't even an effective means of interrogation. We flat out murdered some of them without a trial- something we would comdemn anyone else for. I don't think you do, really, if only becasue of your absolutist position that these actions ARE war crimes, no questions asked. Particularly when discussing terrorism - but even in Iraq, to a degree - these concepts cease to be as black-and-white as they were in, say, World War II (where they weren't that black-and-white to begin with anyway - the Allies reclassified German POWs as "disarmed enemy combattants" to get around the Geneva Convention as a matter of routine, for example). And until people understand the inherent ambiguity of the issues, they won't understand that the Bush administration actually tried to address those issues responsibly. They did it awkwardly, haltingly, and stupidly, of course (they tried to do it on their own, willingly picking fights with Congress AND the international community over it, instead of working with them to resolve the ambiguities as a matter of international law). But the did actually recognize and try to address the ambiguity, which is far beyond what most of their detractors have done. Really, this administration's epitaph should be "They meant well, and tried to do the right thing. To bad they were morons." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I don't think you do, really, if only becasue of your absolutist position that these actions ARE war crimes, no questions asked. Particularly when discussing terrorism - but even in Iraq, to a degree - these concepts cease to be as black-and-white as they were in, say, World War II (where they weren't that black-and-white to begin with anyway - the Allies reclassified German POWs as "disarmed enemy combattants" to get around the Geneva Convention as a matter of routine, for example). And until people understand the inherent ambiguity of the issues, they won't understand that the Bush administration actually tried to address those issues responsibly. They did it awkwardly, haltingly, and stupidly, of course (they tried to do it on their own, willingly picking fights with Congress AND the international community over it, instead of working with them to resolve the ambiguities as a matter of international law). But the did actually recognize and try to address the ambiguity, which is far beyond what most of their detractors have done. Really, this administration's epitaph should be "They meant well, and tried to do the right thing. To bad they were morons." I am not saying that they shouldn't have payed for their crimes- but torture is neither a good interrogation method, nor a humane method of punishment. We intentionally skewed the number of prisoners, forced medics to falsely sign documents, feigned reasons of death........My question on all of this is what have we turned into? We did the wrong things for the right reasons. Its hard to do the right things sometimes, but its something I expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I am not saying that they shouldn't have payed for their crimes- but torture is neither a good interrogation method, nor a humane method of punishment. We intentionally skewed the number of prisoners, forced medics to falsely sign documents, feigned reasons of death........My question on all of this is what have we turned into? We did the wrong things for the right reasons. Its hard to do the right things sometimes, but its something I expect. What they received was not torture , harassment maybe but not torture. Keep in mind you can't do the right thing ,or any thing for that matter if your are dead. You have to understand your enemy , and thier intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Actually, the people aren't naive because they don't notice Congresscritters haven't followed through on their promise, they're naive for thinking they actually could follow through in the first place. I have to believe that most of the legislators who won on "I'll end the war" were whoring for votes and knew damned well that as a practical matter they had no power to influence it. Hell, Martin O'Malley won the governor's seat in MD in part on "I'll recall the Maryland National Guard from Iraq"...and he HAD to know full well he was shoveling a load of crap. These people - including Obama and Bush - will say what their electorate wants to hear to get elected. I don't disagree with a word you've put here. My grief is not with you but the people who actually blamed the administration and only the administration for our continued operations in Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 What they received was not torture , harassment maybe but not torture. Keep in mind you can't do the right thing ,or any thing for that matter if your are dead. You have to understand your enemy , and thier intentions. Oh, it definitely was torture- there is no debating that fact- the military police have admitted to it. Orders have been found. Not only have we tortured them, we also took the detainees to other governments to have them tortured. I'd choose death over the wrong thing- what we did was play right into the hands of the real criminals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I don't disagree with a word you've put here. Then I take it all back, 'cause it must be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Oh, it definitely was torture- there is no debating that fact- the military police have admitted to it. Orders have been found. Not only have we tortured them, we also took the detainees to other governments to have them tortured. I'd choose death over the wrong thing- what We did was play right into the hands of the real criminals Not every one. Just the liberal media and those that take thier word for fact. Taking prisoners to other countries is called rendition. Its been done since WW11 and maybe longer. What the liberal media doesn't say is what information was extracted from the prisoners. Of course any informatiom received from the prisoners of thier operations would not be released , to the public. Also note that several of the terrorists that were released where found on the battelfeild fighting our troops again and that is totally unacceptable. The only way to stop a war is to win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Not every one. Just the liberal media and those that take thier word for fact. Taking prisoners to other countries is called rendition. Its been done since WW11 and maybe longer. What the liberal media doesn't say is what information was extracted from the prisoners. Of course any informatiom received from the prisoners of thier operations would not be released , to the public. Also note that several of the terrorists that were released where found on the battelfeild fighting our troops again and that is totally unacceptable. The only way to stop a war is to win it. World War Eleven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 World War Eleven? Right eleven comes after ten I think I never went to typing class. And I was at the watering hole during English class . Bet you couldn't tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Not every one. Just the liberal media and those that take thier word for fact. Taking prisoners to other countries is called rendition. Its been done since WW11 and maybe longer. What the liberal media doesn't say is what information was extracted from the prisoners. Of course any informatiom received from the prisoners of thier operations would not be released , to the public. Also note that several of the terrorists that were released where found on the battelfeild fighting our troops again and that is totally unacceptable. The only way to stop a war is to win it. Yeah- the war on terror is one we are going to win. If we wanted to win it, we would have gone in to Pakistan to get Osama Bin Laden. Instead, we fight his brainwashed foot soldiers. By the way- what about the people in the "prison" camps that were identified as civilians- we were afraid eto release them, because of what we had done to them......oh wait- thats just more misinformation from the liberal media, or did I get that from watching CNN........... Torture is not an effective interrogation method because it will get the person to say whatever needs to be said to make it stop. Again, our officers only did what was planned for them to do by Rumsfeld and co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Yeah- the war on terror is one we are going to win. If we wanted to win it, we would have gone in to Pakistan to get Osama Bin Laden. Instead, we fight his brainwashed foot soldiers. By the way- what about the people in the "prison" camps that were identified as civilians- we were afraid eto release them, because of what we had done to them......oh wait- thats just more misinformation from the liberal media, or did I get that from watching CNN........... Torture is not an effective interrogation method because it will get the person to say whatever needs to be said to make it stop. Again, our officers only did what was planned for them to do by Rumsfeld and co. Ok , lets do this what would you do? The liberal media is CNN . Oh and BinLaden has been dead for about 3 years. What would like to do ,just pull out and wait for the next 747 to drop on your head ? I doubt if you have ever met a cold blooded killer. Just so you know I think Rumsfeld was a bum trying to run the war in Iraq on the cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Ok , lets do this what would you do? The liberal media is CNN . Oh and BinLaden has been dead for about 3 years. What would like to do ,just pull out and wait for the next 747 to drop on your head ? I doubt if you have ever met a cold blooded killer. Just so you know I think Rumsfeld was a bum trying to run the war in Iraq on the cheap. CNN isn't all that good and neither is Fox. Personally, I like CSPAN, CSPAN 2, CSPAN 8999 and searching the net. We have to get the leaders- the suicide bombers are just regular joes conned by their leaders who don't have the guts to do the job themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 CNN isn't all that good and neither is Fox. Personally, I like CSPAN, CSPAN 2, CSPAN 8999 and searching the net. We have to get the leaders- the suicide bombers are just regular joes conned by their leaders who don't have the guts to do the job themselves. Getting thier leaders would help, but this will be an on going thing for some time to come as the suicide bombers have been brought up since children to die for thier cause. If you do not have the religious beliefs they have then you should change or die and there is no in between as far as they are concerned. We joke about the 72 virgins but they actually believe it. They do not hold the value of life as you and I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Getting thier leaders would help, but this will be an on going thing for some time to come as the suicide bombers have been brought up since children to die for thier cause. If you do not have the religious beliefs they have then you should change or die and there is no in between as far as they are concerned. We joke about the 72 virgins but they actually believe it. They do not hold the value of life as you and I do. That has been disproven- they do care about life- they have been taught that we are the ones that don't care about life and that we are the ones that want to convert them. If we overcome the propaganda of their leaders, they will lose most of their followers- and we will end a war that is costing us too many lives and draining our economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 That has been disproven- they do care about life- they have been taught that we are the ones that don't care about life and that we are the ones that want to convert them. If we overcome the propaganda of their leaders, they will lose most of their followers- and we will end a war that is costing us too many lives and draining our economy. I would imagine if Joe the Plumber and Kahlil the Camel Driver were able to sit down and slam back a few brews and compare some notes about how their religious leaders and government had sold them each a bill of goods about the others' beliefs...and then have a frank talk about values (like raising their kids to be good people, maybe take a real vacation every so often, have a safe place to live and enough food to eat)....they'd realize we aren't that far apart after all. And maybe they'd be pissed at how they fell for all the institutional bull sh--. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I would imagine if Joe the Plumber and Kahlil the Camel Driver were able to sit down and slam back a few brews and compare some notes about how their religious leaders and government had sold them each a bill of goods about the others' beliefs...and then have a frank talk about values (like raising their kids to be good people, maybe take a real vacation every so often, have a safe place to live and enough food to eat)....they'd realize we aren't that far apart after all. And maybe they'd be pissed at how they fell for all the institutional bull sh--. I don't think that we can be the ones to sit down with them- we need people of similar backgrounds to do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomer860 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 I don't think that we can be the ones to sit down with them- we need people of similar backgrounds to do it She could sit down with them she has the same nasty attitude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts