The Price of Success

[VOR]

who knows how good Henne can be with good coaching

 

Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco sure seemed to do OK after being written off in the pre-season.

 

30 other teams could have had Pennington - but Parcells got him because he Chad does not turn the ball over.

 

The Bills have known since 1994 that they needed a new QB - we are still waiting

So if Henne had such promise and could have been coached-up, why sign Pennington and retard Henne's growth, especially for a rebuilding 1-15 team? Because the coaching staff didn't think he was good enough. And expecting a rookie QB to succeed, or at least to expect him to have a season like Pennington did is a stretch.

 

And no one else wanted Pennington. Parcells got him because of this and because he's a veteran who had success in the past. As for turning the ball over, the past 2 years he's had almost as many INT's as TD's, and a load of fumbles.

 

And true the Bills have needed a QB. Edwards was supposed to be him.

[VOR]

VOR, you've ignored a few things, because you're too busy finding excuses for Miami.

 

Other moves Parcells made:

 

1. Hiring Tony Sparano. He outcoached DJ on two occasions, although he's in his first season and DJ was in his eighth full.

2. Improving the OL: Parcells signed G Justin Smiley, drafted Jake Long, (which moved Vernon Carey to RT) drafted G Donald Thomas, and already had C Samson Satele.

3. Changed the defense from a 4-3 to a 3-4, which had the effect of making supposed over the hill LB Joey Porter a sack machine again. That move allowed Matt Roth to play a simlar role.

4. Trading for Anthony Fasano, and re-signing both Greg Camarillo and Ricky Williams. All three played an important role in that offense, by giving the offense options.

5. Hiring Pasqualoni and Henning as experienced coordinators to make the transition for Sparano. Those guys aren't the highest caliber coordinators, but they devised schemes (The Wildcat) to make that team maximize their talent.

 

Parcells very presence made everyone realize they were not going to be babied. BP made a point of letting people know if

they slacked off they were gone. It's one of the reasons Ernest Wilford didn't play much.

 

Sure, Pennington was a reason for success. But, he wasn't worth 10 wins all by himself.

 

The Miami Dolphins have less talent than the Buffalo Bills, but they had good coaching and didn't turn the ball over. Both teams had low penalties, but it was Miami that had clear leadership.

 

EDIT: Miami has a better front office, better coaching, and better overall leadership. They also happen to have a bettter owner.

Pennington was worth a good number of those wins. Maybe not all 10, but probably half. Even just 1 win was enough to get them into the playoffs. A good QB can do that for you, which is the point, and the Dols were ready to go into the season with McCown (fixed), Henne, or Beck as the starter, until Pennington fell into their laps.

 

And the point about the Bills failing to carpe diem the weak schedule is sickening to me. But a lot of that had to do with the QB play. But I expect Miami to get throttled this weekend and then to falter next year, a la the Jets after the 2006 season, when everyone thought they were ready to knock-off the Pats. Time will tell, but I've seen this before, enough to know that you can't claim the Dols are rebuilt.

[MRW]

The Dols traded McCown when they added Pennington. If they planned on him being a viable candidate at QB, they would have kept him and cut Beck. In any case, McCown versus Beck versus Henne is six of one, half a dozen of another.

They cut McCown when Pennington fell in their lap because he's a lesser version of Pennington. He's not as good as Pennington but would've served as a caretaker QB while they groomed Henne. For a team like Miami that was expecting a rebuild it wouldn't make sense to keep two veteran QBs on the roster.

 

Without question they got lucky and found success faster than they expected, but are you denying that they laid the groundwork for their success? Obviously no one expected the year they've had but I thought that they would put in a respectable year this year. You can't seriously argue that it's dumb luck that teams under Parcells improve rapidly.

[BillsVet]

Pennington was worth a good number of those wins. Maybe not all 10, but probably half. Even just 1 win was enough to get them into the playoffs. A good QB can do that for you, which is the point, and the Dols were ready to go into the season with McCown (fixed), Henne, or Beck as the starter, until Pennington fell into their laps.

 

And the point about the Bills failing to carpe diem the weak schedule is sickening to me. But a lot of that had to do with the QB play. But I expect Miami to get throttled this weekend and then to falter next year, a la the Jets after the 2006 season, when everyone thought they were ready to knock-off the Pats. Time will tell, but I've seen this before, enough to know that you can't claim the Dols are rebuilt.

 

I wouldn't assume Miami will get throttled this weekend, especially with home field advantage. And even if they do, it won't because they're outcoached.

 

Miami won't replicate the NYJ from 06 to 07, because their foundation is more sound. The Jets did not have the front office to sustain success, and bowed to Brett Favre to pull off a PR coup. Miami has no-nonsense guys like Sparano and Ireland who don't care about winning the PR battle, but winning football games. The incoming owner in MIA knows he has the right setup in the front office and won't change it. Meanwhile, Woody Johnson entrusted his success to Mike Tannenbaum who used to practice law. It's kinda like asking the marketing guy to be the de facto GM and expecting success.

 

Get a real football man with an eye for talent, vision for the future, and you're almost guaranteed to win. Go against the grain and amazingly you don't win. It's that simple.

[VOR]

They cut McCown when Pennington fell in their lap because he's a lesser version of Pennington. He's not as good as Pennington but would've served as a caretaker QB while they groomed Henne. For a team like Miami that was expecting a rebuild it wouldn't make sense to keep two veteran QBs on the roster.

LOL! Josh McCown is anything BUT a "caretaker QB." He's a lesser version of JP, much less Pennington.

 

Without question they got lucky and found success faster than they expected, but are you denying that they laid the groundwork for their success? Obviously no one expected the year they've had but I thought that they would put in a respectable year this year. You can't seriously argue that it's dumb luck that teams under Parcells improve rapidly.

When Parcells took over the Cowboys, they made the playoffs the first year. Then they missed them the next 2. Then they made them again and he was gone the season after. Yet they never won a playoff game, even the year after he left, and this past season was a disaster. Would you consider that "rebuilding" if that happened to Miami (as I suspect it will)? Forget comparing them to the Bills, I'm just talking Miami.

[VOR]

I wouldn't assume Miami will get throttled this weekend, especially with home field advantage. And even if they do, it won't because they're outcoached.

Take a look at week 7. Miami's been barely beating bad teams the whole season.

Miami won't replicate the NYJ from 06 to 07, because their foundation is more sound. The Jets did not have the front office to sustain success, and bowed to Brett Favre to pull off a PR coup. Miami has no-nonsense guys like Sparano and Ireland who don't care about winning the PR battle, but winning football games. The incoming owner in MIA knows he has the right setup in the front office and won't change it. Meanwhile, Woody Johnson entrusted his success to Mike Tannenbaum who used to practice law. It's kinda like asking the marketing guy to be the de facto GM and expecting success.

 

Get a real football man with an eye for talent, vision for the future, and you're almost guaranteed to win. Go against the grain and amazingly you don't win. It's that simple.

Yes, it's "that simple."

 

We should talk after next season, to see how much more sound Miami's foundation is than the Jets' was. You all seem to want to put them on a pedestal because their owner spent a ton of money on their front office and coaches and they superficially improved because Brady got injured, Pennington fell into their laps, and their schedule was weak. The true test will be next year and beyond.

[cale]

Look, I'm pissed that the Bills' coaching staff remained unchanged, but let's not rewrite history here, shall we? Parcells was ready to go into 2008 with John Beck or Chad Henne at QB. As I asked in another thread, does anyone think that the Dols would have come close to finishing 11-5 and winning the division with either of those 2 guys? And Pennington joined the Dols because no other team wanted him. And as a reward, he stayed healthy for the entire season for just the 2nd time in his career, and had his 2nd best season. Beyond that, the schedule was weak, the Dols stayed remarkably healthy, and their turnover differential was great. But it's not like Parcells/Sparano had any control over the schedule, players' health, or whether they could force turnovers or prevent turning the ball over, much less Brady's and then Favre's injuries.

 

As for their base, a lot of their key players are well into their 30's, while Pennington hasn't put together back-to-back good and healthy seasons yet in his career. He's their key next year. And expectations will be sky high. The Nick Saban era is too fresh in my mind to say that Miami is the new AFC East powerhouse.

 

I expect this weekend to be ugly for the Dols. The last (actually only) good team they faced this year was the team they'll face this weekend, the Ravens, in week 7, and they blew Miami out in their own house. And while they should be congratulated for taking advantage of the situation and making the playoffs, Parcells' legacy in Miami will depend on their long-term success, not just this year. That is, assuming he's still with them.

 

I'll take that kind of "ugly" - their turnaround was probably the biggest miracle in the NFL this year. Next was probably Atlanta with all that turmoil. Again, a GM from the Parcells/Belichik coaching tree. But it just goes to show you what can happen when you make the commitment and effort and take the risk.

 

Sure they could have come out with the short end of the stick. But if they didn't, they would have been guaranteed to fail.

 

To a certain extent, you make your own luck. I admire those two franchises for being so courageous. Turns out for the Bills - the gutless players and play calling is just a reflection of the ownership.

 

C

[MRW]

LOL! Josh McCown is anything BUT a "caretaker QB." He's a lesser version of JP, much less Pennington.

McCown is fully capable of going out onto the football field and not embarrassing the team. He won't make big plays but he's not mistake-prone either. And stop talking about Pennington like he's a Hall of Famer. He's a guy who was on the verge of being declared washed up when the Jets let him go.

 

When Parcells took over the Cowboys, they made the playoffs the first year. Then they missed them the next 2. Then they made them again and he was gone the season after. Yet they never won a playoff game, even the year after he left, and this past season was a disaster. Would you consider that "rebuilding" if that happened to Miami (as I suspect it will)? Forget comparing them to the Bills, I'm just talking Miami.

Don't forget what a joke Dallas had become before Parcells got there. They are way overrated at the start of every season now, but it wasn't that long ago that they had a cast of also-rans and never-weres at the QB position and were completely out of the playoff picture. So yes, Parcells rebuilt them. What they do with it from here is up to them, but they certainly have a good core group of talented players.

 

And similarly in Miami, they are being built to be competitive for the next several years. You see it everywhere Parcells goes. NE - joke to Super Bowl contender. Jets - joke to division champ. Dallas - joke to division champ. Getting Parcells is not a guarantee that you'll win a championship every year, but odds are pretty damn good you'll be in the running. Even the best teams need luck to go their way to win it though.

 

So believe that Miami will be good or don't, as you say we'll see in the next couple of years. But I don't see why you would try to minimize Parcells' record of success. It's like trying to deny that Belichick is a good coach.

[NavarreFL_Bills_Fan]

2. Mitchell, Stroud, and Johnson were decent to good signings.

I agree Mitchell and Stroud were good. Johnson is a placeholder..

[BillsVet]

When Parcells took over the Cowboys, they made the playoffs the first year. Then they missed them the next 2. Then they made them again and he was gone the season after. Yet they never won a playoff game, even the year after he left, and this past season was a disaster. Would you consider that "rebuilding" if that happened to Miami (as I suspect it will)? Forget comparing them to the Bills, I'm just talking Miami.

 

This league is about coaching and QB play. You know that. And Bill Parcells inherited Quincy freaking Carter at QB and took this team to the playoffs in 2003. But you don't research your posts and thus didn't realize that. He then acquired Bledsoe, though replaced him with Romo when he figured out the latter was better.

 

I'd also point out that Parcells knew when to make the change to Romo, who Dallas signed as a UDFA in 2003. I'm sure Parcells had a hand in that acquisition. Romo isn't great, but give credit where credit is due before marginalizing Parcells work in Big D. He also had to put up with a prima donna owner who overruled him and signed locker room cancer Terrell Owens. Parcells was amazing considering what he had to contend with.

 

Take a look at week 7. Miami's been barely beating bad teams the whole season.

 

At this point I'd rather barely beat a team than barely lose. Especially when Miami barely beat us twice this season.

 

Winning by 1 is better than losing by 1. Even you know that.

 

Let's all marginalize Miami because they're better than us. In essence, your posts are excuses, because you're upset the Dolphins are winners and everyone in our organization, save perhaps about 5 players and Bobby April are losers.

[VOR]

McCown is fully capable of going out onto the football field and not embarrassing the team. He won't make big plays but he's not mistake-prone either. And stop talking about Pennington like he's a Hall of Famer. He's a guy who was on the verge of being declared washed up when the Jets let him go.

McCown is a lousy QB. Pennington, while obviously not a HOF'er, is light-years better. And again, the Dols picked-him-up because the Jets cut him after trading for Favre, and no one else wanted him. IOW, it wasn't a planned-move by Parcells and happenstance played almost the entire role. But it worked for them, and I'm not denying that. But in no way would they have even had a winning record with who they originally had on the roster, much less won the division.

Don't forget what a joke Dallas had become before Parcells got there. They are way overrated at the start of every season now, but it wasn't that long ago that they had a cast of also-rans and never-weres at the QB position and were completely out of the playoff picture. So yes, Parcells rebuilt them. What they do with it from here is up to them, but they certainly have a good core group of talented players.

Dallas is a joke once again. And with the same core players. Again, the results depend on several years, not just one.

 

And similarly in Miami, they are being built to be competitive for the next several years. You see it everywhere Parcells goes. NE - joke to Super Bowl contender. Jets - joke to division champ. Dallas - joke to division champ. Getting Parcells is not a guarantee that you'll win a championship every year, but odds are pretty damn good you'll be in the running. Even the best teams need luck to go their way to win it though.

 

So believe that Miami will be good or don't, as you say we'll see in the next couple of years. But I don't see why you would try to minimize Parcells' record of success. It's like trying to deny that Belichick is a good coach.

Parcells' success has diminished everywhere he's gone. He won 2 SB's with the Giants. He took NE to a SB, but didn't win. He took the Jets to the AFCCG, but they lost. The Cowboys as mentioned, made the playoffs but didn't win a single playoff game. I see no reason to suddenly believe he'll have Miami contending for the SB when his last team doesn't look like a contender. That is, until proven otherwise.

[VOR]

This league is about coaching and QB play. You know that. And Bill Parcells inherited Quincy freaking Carter at QB and took this team to the playoffs in 2003. But you don't research your posts and thus didn't realize that. He then acquired Bledsoe, though replaced him with Romo when he figured out the latter was better.

Duh I knew he had Quincy Carter his first year. The fact remains that the Cowboys haven't win a playoff game with Parcells' team and core group of players. Including Romo who's star has faded badly.

 

How long do you think Pennington will be around and/or will he be able to duplicate the success of this year? Can Parcells develop Henne? Will Parcells even be around?

 

I'd also point out that Parcells knew when to make the change to Romo, who Dallas signed as a UDFA in 2003. I'm sure Parcells had a hand in that acquisition. Romo isn't great, but give credit where credit is due before marginalizing Parcells work in Big D. He also had to put up with a prima donna owner who overruled him and signed locker room cancer Terrell Owens. Parcells was amazing considering what he had to contend with.

Poor Parcells. He couldn't handle Owens. Back with the Giants, he was able to handle LT, who was also a problem OFF the field. Now who's making excuses?

 

At this point I'd rather barely beat a team than barely lose. Especially when Miami barely beat us twice this season.

 

Winning by 1 is better than losing by 1. Even you know that.

I'd rather win ugly than lose pretty as well. But I'd also realize what my opponents were and not claim that my team was "rebuilt." When the Bills were 5-1, I knew they were playing bad teams and taking advantage of a bad schedule. And I figured that Miami and the Jets were also bad teams. Little did I realize Trent would decline so badly.

 

Let's all marginalize Miami because they're better than us. In essence, your posts are excuses, because you're upset the Dolphins are winners and everyone in our organization, save perhaps about 5 players and Bobby April are losers.

I'm not upset. In fact, I'm looking forward to the azz-kicking they're going to experience this weekend. Then I'm looking forward to them falling flat on their faces next year, when Pennington can't duplicate his success/the schedule is tougher, and expectations are sky high.

[MRW]

Parcells' success has diminished everywhere he's gone. He won 2 SB's with the Giants. He took NE to a SB, but didn't win. He took the Jets to the AFCCG, but they lost. The Cowboys as mentioned, made the playoffs but didn't win a single playoff game. I see no reason to suddenly believe he'll have Miami contending for the SB when his last team doesn't look like a contender. That is, until proven otherwise.

Your expectations are way, way, way too high. You're holding Parcells to a standard that no one in the history of the NFL would meet. I'm not claiming (and I've never seen anyone claim) that getting Parcells means a championship. But everywhere he goes he takes teams that are losing and puts them into the playoffs. Every single place.

 

And just for the record, I think the Dolphins without Pennington this year would've had a winning record. I think they would've lost a shot at the playoffs based on tiebreakers. But they played fundamentally sound football and did not beat themselves. The shakeup in the division put them a year ahead of schedule; I don't think they had a serious expectation of making the playoffs this year. But they would've been a solid football team.

[VOR]

Your expectations are way, way, way too high. You're holding Parcells to a standard that no one in the history of the NFL would meet. I'm not claiming (and I've never seen anyone claim) that getting Parcells means a championship. But everywhere he goes he takes teams that are losing and puts them into the playoffs. Every single place.

If making the playoffs and never advancing in them is what you're seeking, than I agree. And I guess after 9 years we should be reduced to that. But Schottenheimer can do the same thing for you.

 

And just for the record, I think the Dolphins without Pennington this year would've had a winning record. I think they would've lost a shot at the playoffs based on tiebreakers. But they played fundamentally sound football and did not beat themselves. The shakeup in the division put them a year ahead of schedule; I don't think they had a serious expectation of making the playoffs this year. But they would've been a solid football team.

We'll have to agree to disagree that the Dols without Pennington would have had a winning record or even a shot at the division title. Pennington won comeback player of the year and more than a few have suggested he should be at least named for NFL MVP, while decrying his omission from the (popularity contest that is the) Pro Bowl.

[DrFishfinder]

Give them their due. Pennington could have fallen into any teams lap but he ended up in Miami.

 

What did Brady's injury do for Buffalo's season?

 

What did the Jets fading down the stretch do for Buffalo's season?

 

A 10 win increase over the previous year is pretty fuggin amazing regardless of the circumstances. No?

As much as it pains me to say it, the Dolphins are playing solid ball and are motivated and well coached. That being said, it would be hard not to improve on a 1-15 season. With the Bills and Jets fading away and Miami playing solid ball, Miami had an easier time of it than they should have.

[BillsVet]

As much as it pains me to say it, the Dolphins are playing solid ball and are motivated and well coached. That being said, it would be hard not to improve on a 1-15 season. With the Bills and Jets fading away and Miami playing solid ball, Miami had an easier time of it than they should have.

 

Miami is in the playoffs no matter what anyone says on this board. It doesn't matter how they did it, Parcells and crew outcoached, outplayed, and outsmarted their opponents, which remarkably was similar to Buffalo's schedule.

 

You and VOR can make any excuse you want for why the Dolphins made it in. Miami won 4 more games than Buffalo did, and managed to go to NE and beat them.

 

The Miami Dolphins are superior to the Buffalo Bills in every way. From owner, to GM, to HC, to assistants, to players' will to win. Buffalo does nothing better, and it's no coincidence that Miami is in the playoffs.

[VOR]

As much as it pains me to say it, the Dolphins are playing solid ball and are motivated and well coached. That being said, it would be hard not to improve on a 1-15 season. With the Bills and Jets fading away and Miami playing solid ball, Miami had an easier time of it than they should have.

Not to mention Brady getting injured in the first game.

[VOR]

Miami is in the playoffs no matter what anyone says on this board. It doesn't matter how they did it, Parcells and crew outcoached, outplayed, and outsmarted their opponents, which remarkably was similar to Buffalo's schedule.

 

You and VOR can make any excuse you want for why the Dolphins made it in. Miami won 4 more games than Buffalo did, and managed to go to NE and beat them.

 

The Miami Dolphins are superior to the Buffalo Bills in every way. From owner, to GM, to HC, to assistants, to players' will to win. Buffalo does nothing better, and it's no coincidence that Miami is in the playoffs.

Bully for them for making the playoffs and probably getting blown out in their first game, and then returning to earth next year. I guess it made that awesome 1-15 season last year worth it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Bully for them for making the playoffs and probably getting blown out in their first game, and then returning to earth next year. I guess it made that awesome 1-15 season last year worth it.

You're assuming an awful lot, bud.

[VOR]

You're assuming an awful lot, bud.

LOL! And no one else is? I heard the same laments after the 2005 season with Saban, and the 2006 Jets season with Mangini. We'll see where the Dols go next year.