On Youth:

[The Big Cat]

So, coming into this season we were the second youngest team in the league after the Packers. This was true last year as well, but Green Bay happened to have its most tenured player (Favre) playing the game's most important position. Because he put forth a Herculian (read: flukey) effort, and in doing so more or less revived his career/legacy, he completely eclipsed the team's youth. Once he was gone, the team slipped from 13-3 to 6-10, going from the NFC Championship, to missing the playoffs outright.

 

The 2007 Packers had the luxury of having a veteran to rely on and make up for the rest of the team's lack of experience. With the exception of Marcus Stroud, I don't think the Bills have a similar player on their roster, and a DT, with few exceptions, does not have the same play-to-play impact as a QB.

 

The vast majority of our "impact" players, through 2008, were in their first five years in the league (Edwards, Lynch, Evans, Whitner, Poz, McKelvin, Parrish, Jackson, Hardy, Johnson, Butler, Simpson). McGee and Dockery are some of the older guys out there, having just finished their SIXTH seasons, and Peters has now been named to the Pro Bowl in the ONLY two seasons he's played at LT. If you don't think this makes a difference when it comes to execution, and if you don't think this matters when push comes to shove, then you're dreaming. Period.

 

We have no true "veterans" on this team, at least not in positions that matter, and at least not in the starting rotation. The closest thing we have to a "veteran" is Josh Reed (7 seasons) and look how much we've grown to appreciate HIS efforts.

 

Here's something I found interesting. Trent Edwards started playing football when he was in 9th grade. That means he's been playing the game for ten seasons. Brett Favre has played 17 NFL Seasons. Chad Pennington: 9.

 

They blew this thing up when Jauron took over, and we have avoided picking up FA's late in their careers. We managed one more win against the only team younger than us, and they had the luxury of playing the worst team in NFL History twice.

 

Dick Jauron, while I support him, infuriates me as much as the next guy. But, I think he deserves at least one more year with this team of young players he's helped to assemble. Otherwise, somebody else inherits them and if he succeeds it'll be either be with the players Dick brought in, or it will be with a whole new squad of his own picking. The former nets the new coach success at the Jauron's expense, the latter is not something I want to have to go through again.

[robkmil]

So, coming into this season we were the second youngest team in the league after the Packers. This was true last year as well, but Green Bay happened to have its most tenured player (Favre) playing the game's most important position. Because he put forth a Herculian (read: flukey) effort, and in doing so more or less revived his career/legacy, he completely eclipsed the team's youth. Once he was gone, the team slipped from 13-3 to 6-10, going from the NFC Championship, to missing the playoffs outright.

 

The 2007 Packers had the luxury of having a veteran to rely on and make up for the rest of the team's lack of experience. With the exception of Marcus Stroud, I don't think the Bills have a similar player on their roster, and a DT, with few exceptions, does not have the same play-to-play impact as a QB.

 

The vast majority of our "impact" players, through 2008, were in their first five years in the league (Edwards, Lynch, Evans, Whitner, Poz, McKelvin, Parrish, Jackson, Hardy, Johnson, Butler, Simpson). McGee and Dockery are some of the older guys out there, having just finished their SIXTH seasons, and Peters has now been named to the Pro Bowl in the ONLY two seasons he's played at LT. If you don't think this makes a difference when it comes to execution, and if you don't think this matters when push comes to shove, then you're dreaming. Period.

 

We have no true "veterans" on this team, at least not in positions that matter, and at least not in the starting rotation. The closest thing we have to a "veteran" is Josh Reed (7 seasons) and look how much we've grown to appreciate HIS efforts.

 

Here's something I found interesting. Trent Edwards started playing football when he was in 9th grade. That means he's been playing the game for ten seasons. Brett Favre has played 17 NFL Seasons. Chad Pennington: 9.

 

They blew this thing up when Jauron took over, and we have avoided picking up FA's late in their careers. We managed one more win against the only team younger than us, and they had the luxury of playing the worst team in NFL History twice.

 

Dick Jauron, while I support him, infuriates me as much as the next guy. But, I think he deserves at least one more year with this team of young players he's helped to assemble. Otherwise, somebody else inherits them and if he succeeds it'll be either be with the players Dick brought in, or it will be with a whole new squad of his own picking. The former nets the new coach success at the Jauron's expense, the latter is not something I want to have to go through again.

 

Good research and good points--we have done an adequate job of drafting and have added to our young pool of talent. We need to continue doing this and keep our veterans. The longer they are here the more valuale they come to this team-Josh Reed. What we need to do now is continue drafting players and start to add to our veteran presence. We don't need to blow the whole thing up--just continue to add players and some experience.

[Cynical]

Good research and good points--we have done an adequate job of drafting and have added to our young pool of talent. We need to continue doing this and keep our veterans. The longer they are here the more valuale they come to this team-Josh Reed. What we need to do now is continue drafting players and start to add to our veteran presence. We don't need to blow the whole thing up--just continue to add players and some experience.

 

 

And keep hoping that at some point a retarded HC instantly gains some football intelligence, and is able to pull a miracle out of his ass.

 

Yep, all the Bills need to do is add players and experience and, and we fans can continue to expect losing season after losing season while the Jauron apologists continue to look for excuse after excuse of why the problem is not Jauron.

 

 

End the abortion NOW.

[Beerball]

According to The News they were 6th.

 

I think the talent is decent with a few glaring weaknesses. Scheme, playcalling, clock management and in game adjustments need to be fixed too.

[Heels20X6]

And keep hoping that at some point a retarded HC instantly gains some football intelligence, and is able to pull a miracle out of his ass.

 

Yep, all the Bills need to do is add players and experience and, and we fans can continue to expect losing season after losing season while the Jauron apologists continue to look for excuse after excuse of why the problem is not Jauron.

 

 

End the abortion NOW.

 

Jauron apologists? You mean there's more than just Big Cat?

[Coach Tuesday]

Consider my counter-hypothesis: the causal factor is strength and conditioning, not age, coaching, or personnel.

 

Discuss.

[robkmil]

And keep hoping that at some point a retarded HC instantly gains some football intelligence, and is able to pull a miracle out of his ass.

 

Yep, all the Bills need to do is add players and experience and, and we fans can continue to expect losing season after losing season while the Jauron apologists continue to look for excuse after excuse of why the problem is not Jauron.

 

 

End the abortion NOW.

 

This was a thread on the talent, not the coaches. I'm not at all a jauron apologist--how do you turn this that way?

[Cynical]

I see you are back to making "excuses" of why the great head coach 'Kotite' Jauron has been unable to produce a winning record ...

 

 

So, coming into this season we were the second youngest team in the league after the Packers. This was true last year as well, but Green Bay happened to have its most tenured player (Favre) playing the game's most important position. Because he put forth a Herculian (read: flukey) effort, and in doing so more or less revived his career/legacy, he completely eclipsed the team's youth. Once he was gone, the team slipped from 13-3 to 6-10, going from the NFC Championship, to missing the playoffs outright.

 

The 2007 Packers had the luxury of having a veteran to rely on and make up for the rest of the team's lack of experience. With the exception of Marcus Stroud, I don't think the Bills have a similar player on their roster, and a DT, with few exceptions, does not have the same play-to-play impact as a QB.

 

The vast majority of our "impact" players, through 2008, were in their first five years in the league (Edwards, Lynch, Evans, Whitner, Poz, McKelvin, Parrish, Jackson, Hardy, Johnson, Butler, Simpson). McGee and Dockery are some of the older guys out there, having just finished their SIXTH seasons, and Peters has now been named to the Pro Bowl in the ONLY two seasons he's played at LT. If you don't think this makes a difference when it comes to execution, and if you don't think this matters when push comes to shove, then you're dreaming. Period.

We have no true "veterans" on this team, at least not in positions that matter, and at least not in the starting rotation. The closest thing we have to a "veteran" is Josh Reed (7 seasons) and look how much we've grown to appreciate HIS efforts.

 

Complete desperation on your part. It's getting harder to find excuses, isn't it?

I like all the 'qualifiers' you have included in those sentences.

According to you, only players having at LEAST 7 years of playing experience constitutes as being "close" to being a veteran.

Questions:

How many years does a player have to have to constitute as being classified as a "veteran"?

What are the classifications of the players that have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, etc ... years of playing experience, but do not have enough playing experience to be classified as a "veteran"?

 

Have you consider the reason the Bills impact have not been able to have an impact is because the coaching staff continues to put our impact players in bad positions?

Kind of hard to have an impact when the QB is running to sidelines to get a play with time running out because the coaching staff is in complete buffoon mode and is unprepared.

Kind of hard to have impact when your games best player is averaging over 8 yards per carry, but is being yanked out of the line up and/or not touching ball down near the goal line.

 

Here's something I found interesting. Trent Edwards started playing football when he was in 9th grade. That means he's been playing the game for ten seasons. Brett Favre has played 17 NFL Seasons. Chad Pennington: 9.

 

How many seasons has Matt Ryan been playing? Joe Flacco? Matt Cassell?

 

They blew this thing up when Jauron took over, and we have avoided picking up FA's late in their careers. We managed one more win against the only team younger than us, and they had the luxury of playing the worst team in NFL History twice.

 

Dick Jauron, while I support him, infuriates me as much as the next guy. But, I think he deserves at least one more year with this team of young players he's helped to assemble.

 

Why does he deserve one more year?

 

1 winning season in 8.

 

Why does he deserve one more year?

 

The complete inability to compete against the better teams in the league during his entire head coaching career.

 

Why does he deserve one more year?

 

Game strategies and management that puts your best player on the bench near the goal line. Or has the team settling for a FG instead of a TD in a nothing to lose game. Or etc....

 

Why does he deserve one more year?

 

Time outs wasted because the coaching staff is caught unprepared to a given situation, or cannot make up its mind.

 

Why does he deserve one more year?

 

A coaching staff that coaches not lose (Yes. He does coach not lose. One or two plays during a game does NOT negate that style of play).

 

Why does he deserve one more year?

 

Jauron and his coaching staff have been out coached by even the half wit and rookie head coaches.

 

Why does he deserve one more year?

 

What HAS Jauron DONE that deserves anything but to be taken out back, pistol whipped, horse stomped, beaten with baseball bats, and strung up ( all figuratively speaking, and not to be taken literally)?

 

If watching the Bills this year has NOT convinced you Kotite Jauron is a clueless of a HC, then nothing will.

 

Otherwise, somebody else inherits them and if he succeeds it'll be either be with the players Dick brought in, or it will be with a whole new squad of his own picking. The former nets the new coach success at the Jauron's expense, the latter is not something I want to have to go through again.

 

Jesus. You really must "addicted" Jauron. You do not want to go through option 2 again (to hell if it produces a winner), but you will settle for option 1. At least that way, you will still be able to say Jauron did at least one thing right, and your justification in him will be confirmed. And you will be still able to cling to the notion if Jauron had at least one more year .....

[Cynical]

This was a thread on the talent, not the coaches. I'm not at all a jauron apologist--how do you turn this that way?

 

Sorry.

 

However, Big Cat is a well known Jauron apologist.

And if you have read his whole argument, you would have seen a veiled attempt to pin the blame for the season onto the Bills "youth". Jauron may or may not be a "problem", but youth "is".

 

His argument is a joke. He touches on Edwards being only in his "tenth" overall season, while Favre and Pennington are in their nth NFL season. Selective evidence in attempt to cloud the issue. He ignores players like Cassell, Flacco, and Ryan in his argument.

 

Then he presents how the Bills only have Josh Reed being "close" to being a veteran at 7 years. Notice how he never "defines" when a player becomes a veteran. He leaves that up the reader. More clouding of the issue.

 

Then he has other qualifiers:

In starting rotation ...

In positions that matter ...

 

That's just more smoke, and gives him an out if you can show proof his "youth" claim has holes.

 

All of that is just smoke and mirrors to hide the real issue:

He wants Jauron back as HC next year. Somewhere, somehow, a part of him still believes Jauron will finally get "it", and prove him (Big Cat) right about Jauron being a "good". Big Cat even tips his hand about it. After next year, if a new guy comes in and achieves success, it will be due to "Jauron's players".

 

So, I apologize if I wrongly classified you as Jauron apologist.

[The Big Cat]

Sorry.

 

However, Big Cat is a well known Jauron apologist.

And if you have read his whole argument, you would have seen a veiled attempt to pin the blame for the season onto the Bills "youth". Jauron may or may not be a "problem", but youth "is".

 

His argument is a joke. He touches on Edwards being only in his "tenth" overall season, while Favre and Pennington are in their nth NFL season. Selective evidence in attempt to cloud the issue. He ignores players like Cassell, Flacco, and Ryan in his argument.

 

Then he presents how the Bills only have Josh Reed being "close" to being a veteran at 7 years. Notice how he never "defines" when a player becomes a veteran. He leaves that up the reader. More clouding of the issue.

 

Then he has other qualifiers:

In starting rotation ...

In positions that matter ...

 

That's just more smoke, and gives him an out if you can show proof his "youth" claim has holes.

 

All of that is just smoke and mirrors to hide the real issue:

He wants Jauron back as HC next year. Somewhere, somehow, a part of him still believes Jauron will finally get "it", and prove him (Big Cat) right about Jauron being a "good". Big Cat even tips his hand about it. After next year, if a new guy comes in and achieves success, it will be due to "Jauron's players".

 

So, I apologize if I wrongly classified you as Jauron apologist.

 

How did I know that YOU'D be the one to pop up and flame me. Truth is, I started typing the post right before going to bed having just heard Trent's locker cleanout interview. I didn't get a chance to do all the research I wanted to do. I'm going to do it now, and we'll see if my theory holds true.

 

Do you know much about the Falcons? I'm asking seriously, because I really don't, and I need to know a thing or two about all the playoff teams in order to make my point.

[Cynical]

How did I know that YOU'D be the one to pop up and flame me.

 

I have openly challenged anyone who has promoted the notion the Bills needed (should, etc..) keep DJ next year. Rest assured, you are not the only person I have pestered.

 

Truth is, I started typing the post right before going to bed having just heard Trent's locker cleanout interview. I didn't get a chance to do all the research I wanted to do. I'm going to do it now, and we'll see if my theory holds true.

 

Your theory already has a kink in it. As Beerball posted a link to a BuffNews article clearly stating the Bills were 6th youngest in the league.

 

Kansas City and Green Bay were tied for the youngest.

Indy is third.

Cincy is fourth.

Miami is fifth.

 

And before you run off and do your research, you better clearly define the following:

What are the impact and non impact positions.

What defines a rotational starter.

Clarify your definition of "veteran". (How many years, is it strictly limited to the NFL, or do you include college and high school? Playing time? Starting or not?)

 

Do you know much about the Falcons? I'm asking seriously, because I really don't, and I need to know a thing or two about all the playoff teams in order to make my point.

 

I do not follow the Falcons with any regularity.

 

And IMO, you might want to look beyond just the teams that made the playoffs. Try looking at teams that produced a winning record. You know, something Jauron has not been able to produce in 7 of 8 seasons as a HC.

[The Big Cat]

I have openly challenged anyone who has promoted the notion the Bills needed (should, etc..) keep DJ next year. Rest assured, you are not the only person I have pestered.

 

 

 

Your theory already has a kink in it. As Beerball posted a link to a BuffNews article clearly stating the Bills were 6th youngest in the league.

 

Kansas City and Green Bay were tied for the youngest.

Indy is third.

Cincy is fourth.

Miami is fifth.

 

And before you run off and do your research, you better clearly define the following:

What are the impact and non impact positions.

What defines a rotational starter.

Clarify your definition of "veteran". (How many years, is it strictly limited to the NFL, or do you include college and high school? Playing time? Starting or not?)

 

 

 

I do not follow the Falcons with any regularity.

 

And IMO, you might want to look beyond just the teams that made the playoffs. Try looking at teams that produced a winning record. You know, something Jauron has not been able to produce in 7 of 8 seasons as a HC.

 

 

It was a Miami newspaper dated March of 2008 that named us the second youngest in the league, and a Google search didn't turn up any newer statistics to suggest otherwise.

 

Average team age really isn't the issue here and you and eye are thinking the same way about how to determine the impact of age on a team's success.

 

I'm not trying to establish impact POSITIONS, but rather who are the impact PLAYERS on each team that finished better than us, and how many years have they been in the league. For example, Atlanta's LT might be more valuable to them than their OLB, but the OLB of the Buccaneers is the team's best player. I just pulled two random teams and positions out of my ass to make an example, so please don't dissect!

 

So yeah, putting this info together is going to be tricky, and I'd rather not use statistics (aside from age) to make my point.

 

This could take awhile. But my gut tells me that every team with a winning record has an 'impact' player over the age of 28. Something we simply don't have, with the exceptions of Stroud and Schobel.

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

Dockery, Denney, Schobel, Kelsay, Stroud, Reed, Peters, Evans, Greer, Spencer Johnson, Losman, Mitchell, Moorman, Lindell, Royal, Fowler, McGee, and Walker can all reasonably be called veterans at this stage of their career.

[The Big Cat]

Dockery, Denney, Schobel, Kelsay, Stroud, Reed, Peters, Evans, Greer, Spencer Johnson, Losman, Mitchell, Moorman, Lindell, Royal, Fowler, McGee, and Walker can all reasonably be called veterans at this stage of their career.

 

Being kind to Walker and Dockery, I crossed off the players that didn't amount to jack squat in 2008.

 

I think what I'm going to find here as a poke around figure out how the age of our impact players compares to other teams is that we do, in fact, have a void of players with 6-10 years of experience. My hypothesis is that you need players in that age range to have a winning TEAM. The reason we DON'T have players in that age range is simple: Draft History since 2000 (information throughout thread is useful)