Ray Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 To anyone objective! The two plays are not even comparable in circumstance, time of game, purpose of the play etc....
cale Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 To anyone objective! The two plays are not even comparable in circumstance, time of game, purpose of the play etc.... The big criticism of JP (again, I'm not trying to say JP is a better QB) at the time (and please go check the boards here after that play went down) was that JP's clock is off and that he couldn't "feel" the pressure. Also that he couldn't protect the ball. All I'm saying is why is Trent not being held to the same standard. Even the commentators were saying he didn't even realize someone was on him till it was too late. I know the thing to do here is to take the "you're just a JP supporter" argument. But honestly right now who would you take given their play and pocket presence and all around feel for the game: 1) Trent 2) Matt Ryan ( I am surprised as anyone as to how well he is doing) 3) Joe Flacco (read above in parentheses) You can say 2) and 3) have better support and coaching. But do you see the desire in his eyes ala Lynch or Jackson? I don't. Maybe he'll get there - I hope he does. But right now he is a template QB - and my argument is that two rookies are getting it done better than him - and that TE right now has some of the same flaws we're upset with JP about. That desire/fire/confidence is there in Cutler, Rivers - even in a 7th round pick named Matt Cassell. Take a look at him after he outjocked Corner on that QB scramble on 4th & 2. Take a look a TE every time after he gets hit. There's a mini drama. He walks around, grimaces and walks it off. Again, I like the kid's quick release. I like how he distributes the ball when he makes the right read/decision. But right now he isn't very inspiring. Sure, the guys say he is our leader yada, yada, yada - they're saying the same thing about Jauron, FWIW. And maybe that's the problem, he is taking the emotional lead of his coach - which is to say insipid. I'm for giving the guy the benefit of the doubt - but I also want some kind of veteran insurance. C
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 The big criticism of JP (again, I'm not trying to say JP is a better QB) at the time (and please go check the boards here after that play went down) was that JP's clock is off and that he couldn't "feel" the pressure. Also that he couldn't protect the ball. All I'm saying is why is Trent not being held to the same standard. Even the commentators were saying he didn't even realize someone was on him till it was too late. I know the thing to do here is to take the "you're just a JP supporter" argument. But honestly right now who would you take given their play and pocket presence and all around feel for the game: 1) Trent 2) Matt Ryan ( I am surprised as anyone as to how well he is doing) 3) Joe Flacco (read above in parentheses) You can say 2) and 3) have better support and coaching. But do you see the desire in his eyes ala Lynch or Jackson? I don't. Maybe he'll get there - I hope he does. But right now he is a template QB - and my argument is that two rookies are getting it done better than him - and that TE right now has some of the same flaws we're upset with JP about. That desire/fire/confidence is there in Cutler, Rivers - even in a 7th round pick named Matt Cassell. Take a look at him after he outjocked Corner on that QB scramble on 4th & 2. Take a look a TE every time after he gets hit. There's a mini drama. He walks around, grimaces and walks it off. Again, I like the kid's quick release. I like how he distributes the ball when he makes the right read/decision. But right now he isn't very inspiring. Sure, the guys say he is our leader yada, yada, yada - they're saying the same thing about Jauron, FWIW. And maybe that's the problem, he is taking the emotional lead of his coach - which is to say insipid. I'm for giving the guy the benefit of the doubt - but I also want some kind of veteran insurance. C There is a clear nuance to the whole thing. JP Losman was hit by an unblocked defender and fumbled the ball and that proves that he will be bagging groceries soon. Trent Edwards was hit by an unblocked defender and fumbled the ball but it was not his fault, everyone knows it's Windy, and even if it was Dockery's fault, Trent is a rookie in his first full season. It's clear there is no comparison at all because the one happened in the Meadowlands and the other in the stadium formerly known as the Big Whipped Topping.
cale Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 There is a clear nuance to the whole thing. JP Losman was hit by an unblocked defender and fumbled the ball and that proves that he will be bagging groceries soon. Trent Edwards was hit by an unblocked defender and fumbled the ball but it was not his fault, everyone knows it's Windy, and even if it was Dockery's fault, Trent is a rookie in his first full season. It's clear there is no comparison at all because the one happened in the Meadowlands and the other in the stadium formerly known as the Big Whipped Topping. The JP vs Trent thing is done AFAIC. Trent I think will be a better QB. But on that Dockery whiff, his peripheral vision should have picked up Green. He should have crouched, taken the hit and protected the ball. That to me constitutes the "feeling the pressure" part of his game. FWIW, I think his sixth sense was better prior to the concussion. But hopefully going into his 3rd season, he'll take this team by the scruff of the neck and say, "We're getting it done. No ifs or buts." C
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 The JP vs Trent thing is done AFAIC. Trent I think will be a better QB. But on that Dockery whiff, his peripheral vision should have picked up Green. He should have crouched, taken the hit and protected the ball. That to me constitutes the "feeling the pressure" part of his game. FWIW, I think his sixth sense was better prior to the concussion. But hopefully going into his 3rd season, he'll take this team by the scruff of the neck and say, "We're getting it done. No ifs or buts." C Being serious. Yeah, no news there. I think we both knew Trent was "it" over a year ago and JP was just playing out his string.
reddogblitz Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 He doesn't play well in bad weather.......how did the competing QBs play. Not better. How did he do vs Cutler? He beat him. He beat Miami last year in bad weather. He beat Washington last year in rainy 40 degree weather.The three horrible weather games (yesterday, Cleveland and Giants last year) he outplayed or played as well as the opposing QB (Eli Manning was horrendous last year in those conditions...Giants won by rushing for 300+yards). You have to look at the conditions and the play calling too people. Yes, he was terrible against San Fran and Cleveland. The jury is still out on him but he does possess some things that are the most valuable at QB, namely smarts, good decision making, and accuracy. He is just so inconsistent and the Bills do not have enough talent on defense or offense to compensate at all for a bad QB. When he has a QB rating of over 80 the Bills are 10-0. We will see with another year, but to criticize his play yesterday is pretty ridiculous. V Carucci gave him a B yesterday as he passed pretty well and accurately for 60mph winds. I'll give you the Giants game. But in the Cleveland game, he sucked and Brady Quinn played way better. In the Patsies game Matt Cassell did way better too. It didn't look like the wind affected his throws at all. And, he punted better too.
MartyBall4Buffalo Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 I'll give you the Giants game. But in the Cleveland game, he sucked and Brady Quinn played way better. In the Patsies game Matt Cassell did way better too. It didn't look like the wind affected his throws at all. And, he punted better too. You realize in the cleveland game the bills db's dropped multiple ints? In this past ne/buffalo game neither qb had a pass thrown over 18 yards. Heath evans took a 2 yard dumpoff 19 yards. Matt Cassel's "great passing" 2-10-NE 37 (6:38) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 44-H.Evans pushed ob at BUF 44 for 19 yards (24-T.McGee). Flat pass, caught at NE 45. [/b] The longest reception of the game for either team. So it was a 7 yard pass that evans added an additional 12 yards to after the catch 1-10-BUF 33 (5:01) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 44-H.Evans to BUF 21 for 12 yards (30-K.Simpson). Flat pass, caught at BUF 30. So a 3 yard pass goes 12 yards. Must've been ripping thru that wind. 4-5-BUF 14 (5:09) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 83-W.Welker pushed ob at BUF 2 for 12 yards (24-T.McGee). Caught in flat at BUF 12. Noticing a trend here. Matt Cassel's suppoused great passing "thru" wind were all short. So he throws a 2 yard pass, and all of a sudden he's ripping thru the wind? 3-7-NE 18 (2:25) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 26 for 8 yards (59-K.Mitchell). Flat pass, caught at NE 23. more of the same 2-5-BUF 39 (14:23) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 81-R.Moss to BUF 26 for 13 yards (24-T.McGee). Caught in flat at BUF 26 His best pass of the game, a 13 yarder to randy moss. 3-7-BUF 23 (12:17) 16-M.Cassel pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to BUF 9 for 14 yards (30-K.Simpson). Caught on run at BUF 15. Another short pass. Amazing I tell ya So the guy attempts 1 pass over 10 yards, and all you read on this board is how he had "no problems" with the wind. I mean seriously get some friggen perspective. Did Edwards play good? That's debatable. He certinally had the best passes of the game. The pass Royal dropped in the 4th split defenders, and hit royal in his hands. He had a 18 yard strike. BTW THE LONGEST THROWN PASS OF THE GAME,BY EITHER QB, also to Royal. As well as a 16 yard strike to Reed. BTW Edwards was the only qb in the game to attempt passes past 15 yards. If you wanna go on and say how Cassel was efficient, in his ability to dump off passes, that their fb was able to run after the catch for positive yardage. Or how the patriots excelled in 3rd and 4th downs, as the difference in the game, go right on. For the sake of people who actually watch football, don't insult your own intelligence, and the intelligence of others, by stating That Matt Cassel was anything other then the byproduct of yet again getting clowned by The best coach in the NFL.
dave mcbride Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 You realize in the cleveland game the bills db's dropped multiple ints? In this past ne/buffalo game neither qb had a pass thrown over 18 yards. Heath evans took a 2 yard dumpoff 19 yards. Matt Cassel's "great passing" 2-10-NE 37 (6:38) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 44-H.Evans pushed ob at BUF 44 for 19 yards (24-T.McGee). Flat pass, caught at NE 45. [/b] The longest reception of the game for either team. So it was a 7 yard pass that evans added an additional 12 yards to after the catch 1-10-BUF 33 (5:01) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 44-H.Evans to BUF 21 for 12 yards (30-K.Simpson). Flat pass, caught at BUF 30. So a 3 yard pass goes 12 yards. Must've been ripping thru that wind. 4-5-BUF 14 (5:09) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 83-W.Welker pushed ob at BUF 2 for 12 yards (24-T.McGee). Caught in flat at BUF 12. Noticing a trend here. Matt Cassel's suppoused great passing "thru" wind were all short. So he throws a 2 yard pass, and all of a sudden he's ripping thru the wind? 3-7-NE 18 (2:25) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 26 for 8 yards (59-K.Mitchell). Flat pass, caught at NE 23. more of the same 2-5-BUF 39 (14:23) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 81-R.Moss to BUF 26 for 13 yards (24-T.McGee). Caught in flat at BUF 26 His best pass of the game, a 13 yarder to randy moss. 3-7-BUF 23 (12:17) 16-M.Cassel pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to BUF 9 for 14 yards (30-K.Simpson). Caught on run at BUF 15. Another short pass. Amazing I tell ya So the guy attempts 1 pass over 10 yards, and all you read on this board is how he had "no problems" with the wind. I mean seriously get some friggen perspective. Did Edwards play good? That's debatable. He certinally had the best passes of the game. The pass Royal dropped in the 4th split defenders, and hit royal in his hands. He had a 18 yard strike. BTW THE LONGEST THROWN PASS OF THE GAME,BY EITHER QB, also to Royal. As well as a 16 yard strike to Reed. BTW Edwards was the only qb in the game to attempt passes past 15 yards. If you wanna go on and say how Cassel was efficient, in his ability to dump off passes, that their fb was able to run after the catch for positive yardage. Or how the patriots excelled in 3rd and 4th downs, as the difference in the game, go right on. For the sake of people who actually watch football, don't insult your own intelligence, and the intelligence of others, by stating That Matt Cassel was anything other then the byproduct of yet again getting clowned by The best coach in the NFL. What he said!
GG Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 What he said! Works both ways. If Gibril Wilson keeps his head & Raiders don't stop blitzing, there's no comeback. If Greer drops the INT vs Rams, there's no comeback either. Even the KC blowout was aided greatly by Thigpen's brainfarts. Edwards is a master of capitalizing on opportunities that the D & ST give him (JP couldn't). He's also great in taking what the opposing D gives him. But I don't recall seeing him make a play where there isn't one. Basically JP lost his job to Kelly Holcomb again.
Bill from NYC Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Works both ways. If Gibril Wilson keeps his head & Raiders don't stop blitzing, there's no comeback. If Greer drops the INT vs Rams, there's no comeback either. Even the KC blowout was aided greatly by Thigpen's brainfarts. Edwards is a master of capitalizing on opportunities that the D & ST give him (JP couldn't). He's also great in taking what the opposing D gives him. But I don't recall seeing him make a play where there isn't one. Basically JP lost his job to Kelly Holcomb again. Even if this is true (and I think it to be quite the stretch), Trent is young. Not every winning quarterback needs to have all the raw talent of John Elway, and to imply (not meaning you) otherwise is clearly stupid. Trent won the job as a rookie. Without running down the list, that does say a few things. And while I think that he is better than JP, the Bills won't win until their team is constructed to play outdoors, in cold weather. Gerry, even Elway didn't win it all until he relied on his runnung game and short passes.
Ray Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 You realize in the cleveland game the bills db's dropped multiple ints? In this past ne/buffalo game neither qb had a pass thrown over 18 yards. Heath evans took a 2 yard dumpoff 19 yards. Matt Cassel's "great passing" 2-10-NE 37 (6:38) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 44-H.Evans pushed ob at BUF 44 for 19 yards (24-T.McGee). Flat pass, caught at NE 45. [/b] The longest reception of the game for either team. So it was a 7 yard pass that evans added an additional 12 yards to after the catch 1-10-BUF 33 (5:01) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 44-H.Evans to BUF 21 for 12 yards (30-K.Simpson). Flat pass, caught at BUF 30. So a 3 yard pass goes 12 yards. Must've been ripping thru that wind. 4-5-BUF 14 (5:09) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 83-W.Welker pushed ob at BUF 2 for 12 yards (24-T.McGee). Caught in flat at BUF 12. Noticing a trend here. Matt Cassel's suppoused great passing "thru" wind were all short. So he throws a 2 yard pass, and all of a sudden he's ripping thru the wind? 3-7-NE 18 (2:25) (Shotgun) 16-M.Cassel pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 26 for 8 yards (59-K.Mitchell). Flat pass, caught at NE 23. more of the same 2-5-BUF 39 (14:23) 16-M.Cassel pass short right to 81-R.Moss to BUF 26 for 13 yards (24-T.McGee). Caught in flat at BUF 26 His best pass of the game, a 13 yarder to randy moss. 3-7-BUF 23 (12:17) 16-M.Cassel pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to BUF 9 for 14 yards (30-K.Simpson). Caught on run at BUF 15. Another short pass. Amazing I tell ya So the guy attempts 1 pass over 10 yards, and all you read on this board is how he had "no problems" with the wind. I mean seriously get some friggen perspective. Did Edwards play good? That's debatable. He certinally had the best passes of the game. The pass Royal dropped in the 4th split defenders, and hit royal in his hands. He had a 18 yard strike. BTW THE LONGEST THROWN PASS OF THE GAME,BY EITHER QB, also to Royal. As well as a 16 yard strike to Reed. BTW Edwards was the only qb in the game to attempt passes past 15 yards. If you wanna go on and say how Cassel was efficient, in his ability to dump off passes, that their fb was able to run after the catch for positive yardage. Or how the patriots excelled in 3rd and 4th downs, as the difference in the game, go right on. For the sake of people who actually watch football, don't insult your own intelligence, and the intelligence of others, by stating That Matt Cassel was anything other then the byproduct of yet again getting clowned by The best coach in the NFL. Sieve...your common sense is wasted on this board. The idea of a QB playing great going 6 of 8 and throwing one pass in a game more than 10 yards as the standard of excellency is ridiculous. Wow...what a 10 yard pass to Wes Welker who did not have a defender less than 15 yards away from him on the play by the endzone. Trent was equal to Cassel's play that game and was actually good during that game passing three times as much as MC. Why the Bills did not choose to throw to the end zone at the end of the half, why they chose not to go no-huddle when they had the wind is beyond me. But that is not Trent's doing.
Heels20X6 Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Basically JP lost his job to Kelly Holcomb again. That's the one part of Trent's game that infuriates me. Lately, he's become Captain Checkdown v2.0. Take a look at the rollout play where he peeled out and just dumped it off to Fine for a 1 yard gain (in bounds). He holds that ball for a second more and looks downfield, Evans has separation and an easy touchdown. Trent's game has become dink and dunk to Reed and Evans (our deep play threat and #1 receiver) has become ineffective. Grow some balls and throw it downfield will you? 25 yards passing at the half was shameful. Wind or no wind, Kelly would have been in there giving a middle finger to Mother Nature. Trent is becoming like Holcomb when we need him to be more like Kelly. A leader on the field and the confidence to make the plays when we need them. He has the ability. How many times have we seen him throw a 20 yarder on a rope (like the Cleveland game pass to Royal)? We need more of that, instead of the two yard outs he's gotten comfortable throwing.
GG Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Even if this is true (and I think it to be quite the stretch), Trent is young. Not every winning quarterback needs to have all the raw talent of John Elway, and to imply (not meaning you) otherwise is clearly stupid. Trent won the job as a rookie. Without running down the list, that does say a few things. And while I think that he is better than JP, the Bills won't win until their team is constructed to play outdoors, in cold weather. Gerry, even Elway didn't win it all until he relied on his runnung game and short passes. Call 'em as I see em. Edwards is a fine technique QB, who just like Holcomb, will get you enough production to keep the chains moving but won't put up points. Hence he'll seduce you with poise and calm between the 20s. I actually think the Bills are built for the elements, except they didn't run that offense precisely because the opponents' D play to Edwards' weakness. Edwards' star stopped shining for me in the first Jets game last year, when Mangini decided to blitz him with DBs and totally threw off his rhythm. Ever since that game, when the opposing D play that scheme, Edwards is neutered. Edwards' quick release does manage to beat the blitz once in a while, but because there's zero respect for the long ball, defenses can cheat and give up the random 10-15 completion. That's why I was shocked that Shanahan completely called off the blitz after Parrish gained 14 yds on a blitz pickup. Yes, he's young. Yes, it's only his second season. But you never see him taking a chance when he has to take a chance. It's always up to the other players to make a great play - like Lynch's tremendous 20 yd run after a 1-yd catch. It could be bias, but I see Edwards as the reincarnation of Holcomb's hallmark 6 yard pass on a 3rd & 9.
The Senator Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Trent won the job as a rookie. Trent did not 'win' the job as a rookie. Trent 'won' the job when Wilfork put his head to Losman's knee.
The Guy Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Cassel has real NFL receivers. He also has a good relationship with the refs.
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Works both ways. If Gibril Wilson keeps his head & Raiders don't stop blitzing, there's no comeback. If Greer drops the INT vs Rams, there's no comeback either. Even the KC blowout was aided greatly by Thigpen's brainfarts. Edwards is a master of capitalizing on opportunities that the D & ST give him (JP couldn't). He's also great in taking what the opposing D gives him. But I don't recall seeing him make a play where there isn't one. Basically JP lost his job to Kelly Holcomb again. Aught oh! You're running the risk of being called "JP's lover" with this stuff! BTW, I am in agreement with your comparison.
Bill from NYC Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 I actually think the Bills are built for the elements, except they didn't run that offense precisely because the opponents' D play to Edwards' weakness. When the weather gets crazy, passing becomes something of an afterthought. Yeah...FJ put up great numbers this time, but the above is virtually beyond dispute. And despite the effort by jackson, the pats held the ball 4 minutes longer than the Bills. The Bills nave a defensive front that except for Stroud, is small, weak and not very quick. Their OL is better at pass blocking than running the ball (which is very odd in itself), and the defense is built around small, frail defensive backs. How do the Bills usually do on 3rd and short? The answer is not good at all, because there is no credible center, and Dockery all but sucks. He plays as if he couldn't give a flying f k. Butler is average, and Walker is inconsistent. Oh, and who is the tight end? In other words, the Bills are weak in the positions up front that matter the most in any weather, especially crazy weather. Not just at RWS....the Bills also have a game every year in the swamps and one in Foxboro, neither of which is tropical. We will lose until Jauron determines that big guys matter more than Dante Whitner, which will never happen. We will lose until Ralph fires virtually the entire front office and coaching staff from top to bottom. This won't happen either and it really is a shame, because Marty Schottenheimer could make this a playoff team as early as 09, tougher schedule or not.
The Senator Posted December 30, 2008 Posted December 30, 2008 Basically JP lost his job to Kelly Holcomb again. Yeah, it's been a year full of surprises - can you believe Matt Cassel 'won' the starting job over Tom Brady?
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