Could we get a first round pick for Whitner?

[Bufluv]

IMO Whitner's solid overall but lacks the ball hawking skills you want in a FS. He should stay at SS and I'd like to see Youboty play FS. Youboty was really getting to the ball before he went down

[vincec]

Nduke in Cincinnati has 5 sacks, 4 picks, a forced fumble, and 10 passes defensed in 2 seasons.

Jones in Cleveland has 1 sack, 13 picks, 2 forced fumbles, and 29 passes defensed in 3 seasons.

Page in Kansas City has 1 sack, 10 INTs, 3 forced fumbles, and 25 passes defensed in 3 seasons.

Pollard in Kansas City has 1 sack, 3 INTs, 3 forced fumbles, 8 passes defensed and a safety in 2 seasons starting.

 

Whitner? In 3 seasons...1 sack, 2 picks, 2 forced fumbles, 7 PDs. The above players always have lousy pass rushes too.

 

This says it all. The Bills were looking for a Bob Sanders or Troy Polamalu type player with such a high pick and just haven't gotten it. It should speak volumes that the Bills have moved Whitner to free safety and are now playing Bryan Scott at strong to try and get some of the run support that they need from that position in this defense. That being said, Whitner is still a decent free safety starter so it makes no sense to move him unless someone offers a great package (which I doubt).

[TheLynchTrain]

Is there any way we could trade 1billsfan to another fan board? You know, he's never really lived up to his name as 1billsfan...

[Sisyphean Bills]

Matt Millen would trade a 1st rounder for him. Oh wait...

[BADOLBILZ]

I don't know what qualifies you to speak to Whitner's intangibles, but I do know this: He does, in fact, lack the statistics which indicate a "great" play. However, he plays in a defensive scheme which relies on quick, aggressive pressure at the snap of the ball, but seems to break down the longer a quarterback has to let the play develop. To be critical of ANY of our DB's is somewhat laughable considering how long they're expected to cover, given the complete lack of pass rush upfront.

 

Furthermore, if you ARE going to speak to a players' intangibles, KNOWING that Whitner is normally the one making the pre-snap reads/calls, one has to believe that in fact his intangibles ARE strong, since the defense has hardly lost us any games since he's been back there, despite the utter dysfunction of the DLine, the unit which is SUPPOSED to be the driving force of a Tampa-2 scheme.

 

In this instance, the intangibles I'm talking about are instincts and ball skills. I actually believe that those show up in stats, but that's a concession to those, like yourself, who believe they don't. I base that opinion off of a player I see from my seat at the 50 yard line routinely beaten because he's out of position. However, if you'd like, feel free to reference the list of low pedigree strong safeties referenced in the comparison. Those guys aren't playing behind great front 7's either.

 

Measurables are a given. He's small for a strong safety and it shows up routinely in being too small to handle big TE's. Picking him #8 overall was a mistake on multiple levels. Do you believe otherwise? Or are you just arguing for arguments' sake?

[billsfreak]

Teams don't give up first round picks for perennial Pro Bowlers anymore, much less a good safety who has a world of potential. The Bears got what, a 4th or 5th round pick for Thomas Jones-a Pro Bowler this year who is leading the AFC in rushing. If he was to be traded, probably a low 3rd or high 4th round pick is the most you will get, and if you did you would only be diminishing the talent on this team. Wilson and Youbouty are good role players, but will never amount to what Whitner does when it is all said and done.

[Sisyphean Bills]

In this instance, the intangibles I'm talking about are instincts and ball skills. I actually believe that those show up in stats, but that's a concession to those, like yourself, who believe they don't. I base that opinion off of a player I see from my seat at the 50 yard line routinely beaten because he's out of position. However, if you'd like, feel free to reference the list of low pedigree strong safeties referenced in the comparison. Those guys aren't playing behind great front 7's either.

 

Measurables are a given. He's small for a strong safety and it shows up routinely in being too small to handle big TE's. Picking him #8 overall was a mistake on multiple levels. Do you believe otherwise? Or are you just arguing for arguments' sake?

People want to believe he's an invisible but great player because they want to believe in Marv Levy and Santa Claus. He plays small, slow, and not very instinctive for his draft position and contract. Chris Kelsey has many of the same problems and many advocate that the Bills cut him outright for comparison.

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

I don't know what qualifies you to speak to Whitner's intangibles, but I do know this: He does, in fact, lack the statistics which indicate a "great" play. However, he plays in a defensive scheme which relies on quick, aggressive pressure at the snap of the ball, but seems to break down the longer a quarterback has to let the play develop. To be critical of ANY of our DB's is somewhat laughable considering how long they're expected to cover, given the complete lack of pass rush upfront.

 

Furthermore, if you ARE going to speak to a players' intangibles, KNOWING that Whitner is normally the one making the pre-snap reads/calls, one has to believe that in fact his intangibles ARE strong, since the defense has hardly lost us any games since he's been back there, despite the utter dysfunction of the DLine, the unit which is SUPPOSED to be the driving force of a Tampa-2 scheme.

 

Crazy as it sounds, there ARE teams in the NFL with worse d-lines than Buffalo. Their safeties generally make more big plays than Whitner anyway. Maybe it's some big accident.

 

As for the scheme, I don't know...I see the Bills playing more cover 3 than cover 2 these days...

[thebandit27]

Please give me one memorable hit that Whitner has made in his career as a Buffalo Bill.

 

I guess knocking chad johnson out cold last year in buffalo doesn't count.

[The Big Cat]

In this instance, the intangibles I'm talking about are instincts and ball skills. I actually believe that those show up in stats, but that's a concession to those, like yourself, who believe they don't. I base that opinion off of a player I see from my seat at the 50 yard line routinely beaten because he's out of position. However, if you'd like, feel free to reference the list of low pedigree strong safeties referenced in the comparison. Those guys aren't playing behind great front 7's either.

 

Measurables are a given. He's small for a strong safety and it shows up routinely in being too small to handle big TE's. Picking him #8 overall was a mistake on multiple levels. Do you believe otherwise? Or are you just arguing for arguments' sake?

 

Well, I would argue (for argument's sake) that unless your seats are high up, you probably don't have that great of a view of the field!

 

But since you obvioulsy attend more games than me, and I made a big deal after attending the SF game about how much more you can observe (or choose to observe) by being there, then I'll trust you've formulated YOUR opinion for the sake of knowledge, and not for argument.

 

I don't know if it makes sense re-hashing the 2006 draft. I do know that a safety, unlike a DT like Ngata is - at the very least - more of a long term investment (smaller, less involved players tend to have longer careers). So to take a guy that DOES produce well enough on the field that his unrelenting commitments OFF the field make him an extremely valuable player for years to come, with the first pick of a new regime, sort of makes sense, I guess. In terms of value to the scheme, I think I would have rather had Ngata. But, as McCargo has proven, DLineman are generally hit or miss. Remember how great THIS GUY was supposed to be?

 

You can always play the 'looking back at the draft and who came later we should have picked...' game, so there's no sense in arguing now, almost 2009 what we should have done in 2006. Safety was one of the highest positions of need, and they got themselves a leader. I honestly don't think that the front end pass rush of the other teams mentioned have been anywhere as remotely bad as ours has been, over THE LAST THREE YEARS. So, I'm really adamant about reserving judgment about ANY of our DB's until we can finally get a strong interior AND exterior of our DLine.

 

Like it or not, the scheme CANNOT function without a dominating DLine, and the fact that the defense HASN'T been a problem last year or this year in spite of injuries everywhere BUT the DLine (Schobel excluded) means the DB's deserve at least some credit. Would you agree?

 

EDIT: I would like to see Whitner playing FS opposite a much bigger SS.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Please give me one memorable hit that Whitner has made in his career as a Buffalo Bill.

He did drag down Higgins 8 yards deep in the end zone.

[The Big Cat]

Crazy as it sounds, there ARE teams in the NFL with worse d-lines than Buffalo. Their safeties generally make more big plays than Whitner anyway. Maybe it's some big accident.

 

As for the scheme, I don't know...I see the Bills playing more cover 3 than cover 2 these days...

 

In run defense, our DLine is quite good. At pass rushing they blow, MISERABLY. On the whole, I think you would be hard pressed to find a team with a record anywhere near ours with a worse DLine.

[BADOLBILZ]

Well, I would argue (for argument's sake) that unless your seats are high up, you probably don't have that great of a view of the field!

 

But since you obvioulsy attend more games than me, and I made a big deal after attending the SF game about how much more you can observe (or choose to observe) by being there, then I'll trust you've formulated YOUR opinion for the sake of knowledge, and not for argument.

 

I don't know if it makes sense re-hashing the 2006 draft. I do know that a safety, unlike a DT like Ngata is - at the very least - more of a long term investment (smaller, less involved players tend to have longer careers). So to take a guy that DOES produce well enough on the field that his unrelenting commitments OFF the field make him an extremely valuable player for years to come, with the first pick of a new regime, sort of makes sense, I guess. In terms of value to the scheme, I think I would have rather had Ngata. But, as McCargo has proven, DLineman are generally hit or miss. Remember how great THIS GUY was supposed to be?

 

You can always play the 'looking back at the draft and who came later we should have picked...' game, so there's no sense in arguing now, almost 2009 what we should have done in 2006. Safety was one of the highest positions of need, and they got themselves a leader. I honestly don't think that the front end pass rush of the other teams mentioned have been anywhere as remotely bad as ours has been, over THE LAST THREE YEARS. So, I'm really adamant about reserving judgment about ANY of our DB's until we can finally get a strong interior AND exterior of our DLine.

 

Like it or not, the scheme CANNOT function without a dominating DLine, and the fact that the defense HASN'T been a problem last year or this year in spite of injuries everywhere BUT the DLine (Schobel excluded) means the DB's deserve at least some credit. Would you agree?

 

You're right, I do see a lot from my seats you don't from your chair.

 

And you contradict yourself by trying to justify the selection of a SS over a DT, then emphatically stating the scheme cannot function without a dominating DLine. Was that not to be expected? Like I said, it was a bad pick on multiple levels. The position, the particular player, the needs of the organization....

 

BTW, I don't buy that stuff about safeties being more long term investments than DT's. Yeah, some safeties hang around for a long time, but so do a lot of big DT's. In general, lineman may be more involved, but hardly any of them absorb the kind of hits the small players do.

[Dawgg]

In run defense, our DLine is quite good. At pass rushing they blow, MISERABLY. On the whole, I think you would be hard pressed to find a team with a record anywhere near ours with a worse DLine.

 

Donte has had numerous opportunities to make plays. He just hasn't made them.

 

It's as simple as that. The Bills botched the pick. Smarter Bills fans knew it was a bad pick the moment it was made. The lemmings spent years justifying it... now the tides have turned.

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

In run defense, our DLine is quite good. At pass rushing they blow, MISERABLY. On the whole, I think you would be hard pressed to find a team with a record anywhere near ours with a worse DLine.

 

Yeah. Green Bay...they don't get any pass rush from their D-line either.

 

They have almost as many INTs as the Bills do INTs and forced fumbles combined. And a bunch of those picks happened to go for touchdowns. They didn't do it because of a great pass rush...they did it because they have guys in the secondary that make plays.

[StupidNation]

The Bills need MORE players like Whitner, then they'd have a lot more heart.

 

I hope you are joking. If we did we would have a lot more scoring against us, a lot more missed tackles, and a lot more bad angles.

 

On the other hand it would allow our offense to control time of possession with the other team scoring at will.

[beastly23]

Unreal how fans dog players especially when there's so many others to pick on. Watching almost every Bills game i can say we're lucky to have Donte. Safety's aren't supposed to have a lota tackles, they are the last resort. D Whit is a hitter and he is fast enough in this league. He needs a saftey beside him so they can do something. Everyone thinks he's overrated. Rated by who?! who cares, this kid plays hard and is dedicated to winning. Ugh i think we need to stop hating jus cuz he was picked so high. Whitner is one of my favorite players. Pick on Denney and Loseman or ellison geez!!!!!

[billybob]

...we get the same or better production from Simpson, Wilson or a second or third round draft pick?

 

The reason I ask this is because I'd like Alex Mack C AND a defensive mauler be it DE or LB drafted in the first round. If Jauron goes then all ties to Whitner are gone in my book. Whitner has never lived up to the hype but I think that there could be teams out there who might bite on getting him based on the continued hype that follows him for some unknown reason.

 

I want the Bills to keep Greer and have him along with McKelvin, McGee, Corner for a solid CB situation. The Bills need a center and a defensive playmaker much more than keeping the disappointing Whitner. Every time I see him, I think about how stupid it was not to draft Ngata.

No! for two reasons 1. safety is not a premier position and 2. Whitner is not a premier safety - the only safeties worth anything like a 1st is the rare freak who is a combination LB, and CB and a guy like that really transcends the position - As for not drafting Ngata yes that was stupid and as I said the day we drafted Whitner instead of Ngata "not only was that a bad decision but every year it will seem like a worse decision than the year before" Ngata will continue to get better and truthfully he's really is not in his best position, if he was a DT in a 4-3 he'd make the probowl every year.

[Erik]

I have a question - if you had to cut one of either Peters or Whitner tomorrow who would you? I can see the reasoning behind defending Whitner. We've been watching so many zombies lumbering around the football field for 10 years that when we see a guy who shows some tenacity and leadership we kind of cling to them. If Peters had half the heart that Whitner had then he would be a perenial all pro with a fat contract. And I am by no means vindicating the play of Whitner for the most part, although I don't think that he is close to as bad as some people here are making him out to be. As a matter of fact I find the people who rip him for not being able to cover Coles or Marshall and then citing the fact that he was supposed to be able to line up at CB if need be, to be a little silly. If you can cover a Laverneus Coles or a Brandon Marshall man to man then you are starting at Cornerback for an NFL team. Donte Whitner isn't a starting Cornerback in the NFL the last time I checked. But I'd like to see more from him, a lot more.

[8-8 Forever?]

Whitner will not fetch a #1. Trades rarely happen in this league anymore, this is not fantasy football. Teams wait for contracts to expire and sign guys as free agents. We need Defensive Ends and Offensive Line players. If we draft a tight end #1 I will shoot myself. Probably trade down to #20 to get another #2 or #3 pick , take Mack #1 and a D End no. 2.. thats what we need to do. Unless can get a D end in free agency.