Leods McKevlin.. Awesome...Donte Whitner...not so much

[All_Pro_Bills]

On his best days, Whitner is slightly above-average.

 

Most days, he's mediocre at best. I asked another Donte-lover a few weeks ago: name one big play Whitner's made in his entire career. Do that, and I'll counter with NUMEROUS times he's taken horrible angles to ballcarriers who subsequently blow by him for big gains... or the times he's been SMOKED in coverage... or the times he's flat-out late to get over in help... the list goes on...

 

He and Posluszny are mediocre NFL talents at this point in their careers, yet somehow they get a MAJOR pass from Bills fans.

 

I have to agree we haven't seen a lot of stellar play out of Donte this year. That said, IMO most of the Bills defensive backfield woes are the result of a subpar front seven. Specifically, the undersized DE's and a lack of size and speed at the linebacker position. For example, I look at Jim Leonhard starting for the Ravens and recall him making a few plays for the Bills, but not being overly effective in the secondary. Yet he starts for the Ravens defense and effectively blitzing, tackling, and making plays in the secondary.

 

We've got to get some pass rushing DE's, and upgrade at LB, and put some consistent pressure on the QB or this team is going to struggle to reach the .500 mark again next season. If that happens I suspect we'll see a lot more big plays out of Whitner and his pal's on the backend...

[GhostsOfTheRockpile]

I have to agree we haven't seen a lot of stellar play out of Donte this year. That said, IMO most of the Bills defensive backfield woes are the result of a subpar front seven. Specifically, the undersized DE's and a lack of size and speed at the linebacker position. For example, I look at Jim Leonhard starting for the Ravens and recall him making a few plays for the Bills, but not being overly effective in the secondary. Yet he starts for the Ravens defense and effectively blitzing, tackling, and making plays in the secondary.

 

We've got to get some pass rushing DE's, and upgrade at LB, and put some consistent pressure on the QB or this team is going to struggle to reach the .500 mark again next season. If that happens I suspect we'll see a lot more big plays out of Whitner and his pal's on the backend...

 

I'll agree with that sentiment... to a point. If Whitner were any good, he'd be making plays regardless of the front seven. As other posters have already mentioned, he's left PLENTY of plays on the field that were there for the making. This, coupled with his substandard coverage skills, leads me to believe he just ain't that good.

 

And while he likely wouldn't be considered the best safety in the game if he were on the Bills, I'm pretty certain Ed Reed would still be making huge play after huge play were he on the Bills... because he's a ridiculous talent. A stronger front seven will only make Whitner so much better. The rest is on him to provide, and I just don't think he's got it.

[LabattBlue]

Whitner has been flat out bad this season. He has missed tackles, taken bad angles, and has been flat out beat a number of times. Yesterday, he got 2 hands on a ball that should have been intercepted.

Yep.

[Ray]

Bad??? I think that is a bit of an overstatement. Certainly not an elite safety but he was good prior to getting injured. Asked to play corner at times as well. Playing a cover 2 and having him play deep does not really afford him huge ways to make plays a lot of the time. He is a good player, a GREAT team leader which is probably his best attribute.

McKelvin is going to be a great player I think. Was it not a few weeks ago people were actually calling him a bust....people are ridiculous. After a half a season people were calling him a bust. The kid shows great cover skills and instincts which he showed again with the int that got called back for a bogus call. The secondary is the least of our concerns. Get another pass rusher, a weak side LB and that upgrades this defense big time.

[LabattBlue]

Bad??? I think that is a bit of an overstatement. Certainly not an elite safety but he was good prior to getting injured. Asked to play corner at times as well. Playing a cover 2 and having him play deep does not really afford him huge ways to make plays a lot of the time. He is a good player, a GREAT team leader which is probably his best attribute.

McKelvin is going to be a great player I think. Was it not a few weeks ago people were actually calling him a bust....people are ridiculous. After a half a season people were calling him a bust. The kid shows great cover skills and instincts which he showed again with the int that got called back for a bogus call. The secondary is the least of our concerns. Get another pass rusher, a weak side LB and that upgrades this defense big time.

Whitner has been in the NFL 3 years and his play ranges from below average to slightly above average depending on the game. I don't care how GREAT a leader he is, if he can't produce on the field, his team meetings at his house(which are brought up over and over again by the Whitner loyalists) are pretty meaningless.

 

He has two more years on his current contract(contract average...5.8 per year) and he needs to play a LOT better if he thinks his next contract is going to be even close to the current one.

[lacoy38]

Right, the Bills have sooo much talent they are going to finish below .500 again (even Ralph Wilson said the talent is not there)? Here is a question: how many teams have had more recent first round busts than the Bills?

Mike Williams was the only 1 st round bust in the last 7 years.

2008 McKelvin is awesome

2007 Lynch, best player on the team

2006 Whitner is a decent player who we may have reached for but by no means a bust

2005 no 1st

2004 Evans good player, Ok losman sucks, so thats 2

2003 McGahee, total jerk-off but not a bust, did ok here

2002 Williams - bust

2001 Clements, very good player.

Our screw ups are more with free agency i think.

[BobChalmers]

Mike Williams was the only 1 st round bust in the last 7 years.

2008 McKelvin is awesome

2007 Lynch, best player on the team

2006 Whitner is a decent player who we may have reached for but by no means a bust

2005 no 1st

2004 Evans good player, Ok losman sucks, so thats 2

2003 McGahee, total jerk-off but not a bust, did ok here

2002 Williams - bust

2001 Clements, very good player.

Our screw ups are more with free agency i think.

 

Agreed - It was Marv Levy's first year of Free Agency/trades that was particularly awful:

 

If I remember right: Larry Tripplett, Melvin Fowler, Peerless Price, Anthony Thomas, Robert Royal

 

Pretty big waste of money and/or draft picks there.

 

The most painful thing about watching Whitner isn't that he's a bust per se - it's being here in Maryland watching Haloti Ngata be a total animal every week, and knowing that I and nearly everyone else watching - fan and journalist alike - knew he was a better pick for the Bills than Whitner.

 

Ngata was both the "need pick" AND "the best available player". The former DB Jauron was too enamored with building his defense from the back, perhaps?

 

Whatever the reason, it's clear the Whitner pick really was a reach and ultimately a mistake.

[Dibs]

Agreed - It was Marv Levy's first year of Free Agency/trades that was particularly awful:

 

If I remember right: Larry Tripplett, Melvin Fowler, Peerless Price, Anthony Thomas, Robert Royal

 

Pretty big waste of money and/or draft picks there......

That first year of FA was not so bad(in terms of money and/or draft picks).

The only player that received a good amount of money was Tripplett(3mil/year IIRC). The best of the rest was $2mil/year. One of those was Reed re-signing.

Personally I look at that off-season as an impossible task.......we had to get players all over the team, therefore there were a lot of stopgap signings. Pre draft we needed to find starters at SS, FS, OLB, DT, DT, OT, OT, OG, OG, C, WR2, TE, FB.......and that does not include the obvious future replacement for CB, MLB, QB, RB.......and now DE.

[StupidNation]

I think the question should be re-asked: if Whitner was not a 1st rounder should he start? If so where? Maybe his best position is FS, but he's not a true starter there and would be nothing but depth at the position.

 

That to me says he isn't good. Safeties have to make plays on the ball.

[Dibs]

Ngata was both the "need pick" AND "the best available player". The former DB Jauron was too enamored with building his defense from the back, perhaps?

No......the T2 defense had already been decided on. Therefore there was a very likely chance that N'Gata's would become a square peg in a round hole in that system.

[BillsVet]

That first year of FA was not so bad(in terms of money and/or draft picks).

The only player that received a good amount of money was Tripplett(3mil/year IIRC). The best of the rest was $2mil/year. One of those was Reed re-signing.

Personally I look at that off-season as an impossible task.......we had to get players all over the team, therefore there were a lot of stopgap signings. Pre draft we needed to find starters at SS, FS, OLB, DT, DT, OT, OT, OG, OG, C, WR2, TE, FB.......and that does not include the obvious future replacement for CB, MLB, QB, RB.......and now DE.

 

The 06 class was horrible. Dibs, you're rewriting history with this logic that it was low cost, therefore it wasn't bad. Only 2 out of the 10 signed in 06 are with the club. They are Royal and Fowler. One guy starts and shouldn't while the other was benched. Price, A. Thomas, K. Thomas, Bowen, and Tripplett are out of the league entirely. Nall is a 3rd stringer (again) and Reyes was taken from his job at Bank of America to fill in when Jacksonville caught the injury bug. Andre Davis gets minimal PT in Houston.

 

When you sign guys to 3, 4, or 5 year contracts, you hope they play them out. Fowler managed 2.5 seasons, and Royal 3 years out of their deals. Regardless, none of those 10 guys signed even helped this team just three seasons later. None of them, and we're back to finding replacements. Buffalo will be around the same record in 08, which tells me the rebuilding plan started in 06 hasn't worked.

As for Whitner: some players make plays regardless of who is around them. DL don't have to worry about safeties playing behind them, but safeties depend on DL play. Even so, there are playmaking safeties, and guys who are just there. Whitner is closer to the latter category than former. When you have holes on the DL, drafting players in the secondary is pointless.

 

And Ngata can function is a C2, because as I've said numerous times, he has the quickness to penetrate as a 3 with the strength of a 1 gap player. He didn't fit because the Bills were chasing small players who don't help them as much.

[Rico]

Whitner has been in the NFL 3 years and his play ranges from below average to slightly above average depending on the game. I don't care how GREAT a leader he is, if he can't produce on the field, his team meetings at his house(which are brought up over and over again by the Whitner loyalists) are pretty meaningless.

 

He has two more years on his current contract(contract average...5.8 per year) and he needs to play a LOT better if he thinks his next contract is going to be even close to the current one.

I predict Lil' Donte will sign with the Vikings & make the Pro Bowl in his 10th year.

[Dibs]

The 06 class was horrible. Dibs, you're rewriting history with this logic that it was low cost, therefore it wasn't bad. Only 2 out of the 10 signed in 06 are with the club. They are Royal and Fowler. One guy starts and shouldn't while the other was benched. Price, A. Thomas, K. Thomas, Bowen, and Tripplett are out of the league entirely. Nall is a 3rd stringer (again) and Reyes was taken from his job at Bank of America to fill in when Jacksonville caught the injury bug. Andre Davis gets minimal PT in Houston.

 

When you sign guys to 3, 4, or 5 year contracts, you hope they play them out.......

I totally agree that 06 was bad.......but apart from Tripplett & maybe Royal & Fowler, the FAs acquired were stopgap players and obviously were never intended to be long term answers at their respective positions for the team. Sure it would have been great to find a few gems......but their position on the team was to fill roster spots with experienced NFL players until their replacements could be found.

For the most part(aside from Tripplett) the contracts were not cap prohibitive(no high signing bonuses) and cost the team very little when letting the players go. Playing out most of their contracts was not important either way with most of the players(due to contract structure).

 

And Ngata can function is a C2, because as I've said numerous times, he has the quickness to penetrate as a 3 with the strength of a 1 gap player. He didn't fit because the Bills were chasing small players who don't help them as much.

I am quite happy to take your view that N'Gata can function in a C2. At the time of the draft however, there were enough doubts about him being able to become a consistent, motivated NFL player......let alone able to play effectively in the C2.

 

I don't understand why this is such a big sticking point with some fans.......the need to say we should have drafted N'Gata.

The fact is that we shouldn't have drafted him since we had locked ourselves into a system which would have greatly escalated his bustability. If fans need to say something was a bad decision, they can point a big finger at adopting the T2 D(thus precluding N'Gata from our draft strategy).

[BobChalmers]

At the time of the draft however, there were enough doubts about him being able to become a consistent, motivated NFL player......let alone able to play effectively in the C2.

 

The only place I remember reading that was from One Bills Drive personnel and their proxies.

 

I also clearly recall reading that Ngata was highly motivated because he was responsible for raising his siblings and was determined to succeed in the NFL for their sake. Sounds like "character" to me.

 

I do remember hearing some concern (from Jauron?) that he wasn't a good fit for cover-2. But most of the draft guides described him as quick, and, in hindsight, admittedly, it turns out the guy is plenty fast and plays sideline to sideline and runs down RB's from behind.

 

Were there _some_ reasons to argue Whitner was the better pick? - maybe.

 

But two facts are close to indisputable right now:

 

A) (nearly) Everyone said Ngata was the best choice for the Bills before the pick was made.

 

B) In 2008 the Bills Ngata is significantly more of an impact player than Whitner.

 

None of this means Whitner is bad - the real point is that his selection (reach) has the feel of the same sort of "overthinking" that has a coach calling for an end-of-game pass by Losman when Lynch is gaining 6 yards a carry.

[Dibs]

The only place I remember reading that was from One Bills Drive personnel and their proxies.

 

I also clearly recall reading that Ngata was highly motivated because he was responsible for raising his siblings and was determined to succeed in the NFL for their sake. Sounds like "character" to me.

 

I do remember hearing some concern (from Jauron?) that he wasn't a good fit for cover-2. But most of the draft guides described him as quick, and, in hindsight, admittedly, it turns out the guy is plenty fast and plays sideline to sideline and runs down RB's from behind.

 

Were there _some_ reasons to argue Whitner was the better pick? - maybe.

 

But two facts are close to indisputable right now:

 

A) (nearly) Everyone said Ngata was the best choice for the Bills before the pick was made.

 

B) In 2008 the Bills Ngata is significantly more of an impact player than Whitner.

 

None of this means Whitner is bad - the real point is that his selection (reach) has the feel of the same sort of "overthinking" that has a coach calling for an end-of-game pass by Losman when Lynch is gaining 6 yards a carry.

I haven't the time to look up all of the pre-draft profiles but......there was definite talk of him taking plays off(described as a two down player), and lacking on field motivation(weight issues).

 

Though described as 'quick', this was relative to his size......not relative to truly quick lighter DTs(generally). At 345lbs he was always considered to be extraordinarily large for the T2 D.

 

regarding A)

It was only those(which was quite a lot of people including analysts) that either didn't realize the Bills had moved to a T2 D or didn't understand the requirements from the DTs that had N'Gata as a good fit for the Bills.

 

regarding B)Yes he is. It still wouldn't have made it a good call to draft him except in hindsight.

 

To look at it in poker terms....

We chose to call a pre-flop raise with 7,2

7 high comes on the flop & somebody else pushes all in.

Calling this would be a bad call......even if another 7 or 2 comes out on the turn or river & we end up winning the hand.

 

Calling with 7,2 = Choosing the T2 D

Calling the all in = selecting N'Gata

We(most likely) would have ended up doing well had we made the bad call......but it still would have been a bad call.

[BillsVet]

I totally agree that 06 was bad.......but apart from Tripplett & maybe Royal & Fowler, the FAs acquired were stopgap players and obviously were never intended to be long term answers at their respective positions for the team. Sure it would have been great to find a few gems......but their position on the team was to fill roster spots with experienced NFL players until their replacements could be found.

For the most part(aside from Tripplett) the contracts were not cap prohibitive(no high signing bonuses) and cost the team very little when letting the players go. Playing out most of their contracts was not important either way with most of the players(due to contract structure).

 

 

I am quite happy to take your view that N'Gata can function in a C2. At the time of the draft however, there were enough doubts about him being able to become a consistent, motivated NFL player......let alone able to play effectively in the C2.

 

I don't understand why this is such a big sticking point with some fans.......the need to say we should have drafted N'Gata.

The fact is that we shouldn't have drafted him since we had locked ourselves into a system which would have greatly escalated his bustability. If fans need to say something was a bad decision, they can point a big finger at adopting the T2 D(thus precluding N'Gata from our draft strategy).

 

I understand those guys were somewhat stop-gap guys. Few of them were proven NFL starters and couldn't be counted on when the season began. My ire springs from the fact that this team was sold as being up and coming that season, in light of Marv returning. I think many fans underestimate the spin machine Buffalo has in the front office.

 

Price got a 10M deal, Tripplett 18.5M, Royal 12.5M, Fowler 7M, Reyes 5M, while Davis, Nall, K. Thomas, A. Thomas, and Bowen probably got about 7M combined. Surely they weren't huge expenditures, but 53M later their not much further along. I would have thought by now they'd be replaced. Instead, we're short a TE, C, and another DT.

 

I'll admit it's worthless quibbling over the past. It's not going to change anything either way. I just take issue with the way this team was rebuilt. That's not to say they have to be like ATL or MIA, but after three years I expect more than another 7-9 or 8-8 season.

 

This is my final post on the Levy era. I'm done. Promise.

[The Dean]

I'd post something, but Dibs has everything nailed so perfectly, I don't think I can add anything but:

 

Attaboy!

 

Evaluating what "should have been" using future outcomes, instead of the facts at the time is bad enough. To ignore context makes it more useless. Dibs is dealing with the facts at the time and the the contextual realities of the Bills situation.

 

Also, the idea that the Bills aren't a more complete and competitive team (in terms of talent) now, than at the end of 2005 is simply absurd.

[Tonawanda Troy]

Leodis is a Diamond! He plays with a fire in his belly. If all our players had this kids love for the game we would be a play off team for sure.

 

 

Whitner on the other hand was definately a reach with the 8th pick in '06, let me throw a few names out there of players taken after him.

 

How about Ernie Sims at #9, best player on the Lion D.

 

Here is a guy that would definately make us better at this point, Jay Cutler, 11th pick. Holy sh-- could we use him, big time talent and a big time ARM.

 

Pick 12, Haloti Ngata. We sure could use this guy.

 

Now here are a few late first ronders who Marv should have reached for instead, Whitner should have gone much later.

Santonio Holmes 25th, DeAngelo Williams 27th one pick after we moved up to take McCargo(another bust) Williams only has 20 td's on the year. Nick Mangold 29th, Joseph Addai 30th.

 

 

No one has a crystal ball but I sure wish we had Cutler right about now!

[John from Riverside]

I am happy with our secondary......they would be making a lot more plays if we had any kind of pass rush

 

Our pass rush is ridiculously bad. This MUST be addressed in the offseason.

[Stussy109]

Leodis is/on his way to becoming a stud. He is a game changer on ST's, and up and coming as a Corner.

 

Whitner leads by words, not by example. Bryan Scott and McGee are the best two DB's on this team