Kingfish Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 In addition to those VA points out work in exploration and refining, what about all the gas stations that litter the landscape? There is at least another million people on the retail side. In fact, I think it's a fair bet that there are more jobs in oil/gas than in the auto business. People are still going to need to by fuel for their cars. What difference does it make to the gas station owner if they're are buying gas or some sort of alternative fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Not handouts, bridge LOANS to restructure and retool. Nobody is advocating handouts. This distortion of the facts by the anti-loan crowd is simplistic. I agree that companies should reinvest record profits into improving their products and services, and not just handing it out as dividends and buying back stock like the oil companies did, or face a windfall tax, but if their fortunes turn and they are threatened with going out of business, then I support giving them LOANS if they have a business plan that shows how it will allow them to recover. Yeah, and the reconstruction money budgeted for Iraq was a loan too, to be paid back through oil revenue. Uh-huh. Regardless, from your response and your support in other posts, I take it that despite two decades of downward spiral the business plans they cooked up during a 30-day all-nighter shows you that they will allow them to recover? Who knew reversing macro trends could be so easy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 People are still going to need to by fuel for their cars. What difference does it make to the gas station owner if they're are buying gas or some sort of alternative fuel? Same deal as faced by all the parts suppliers. Sure, people will still buy cars, and if the big 3 go under and Nissan US et al take their place they can pick up the parts slack from the big 3's suppliers, but a lot of those suppliers won't make it through the short-term disruption. If Exxon has trouble with pricing or supply but doesn't sell an alternative fuel, all those Exxon stations (like dealerships) can't just sign a deal with another company and offer their wares too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Innovation wouldn't be stifled if they reinvested some of the money in new innovations instead pocketing record profits. Innovation is stifled by greed. Are you actually being serious here? This is the dumbest, most ass-backward thing that I have read in this thread, and that's saying a lot. Please tell us you're joking about this, or hadn't thougth it through. Please. If you're serious, however, you should never, ever, again be engaged in any debate that involves, even tangentially, business or economics. If you actually think that greed STIFLES innovation, there is nothing that anyone can say to you that would bring you out of your fantasy-land. That statement: "Innovation is stifled by greed." is absolute, pure, 100% fantasy, stupid on its face, and represents the opposite of logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Are you actually being serious here? This is the dumbest, most ass-backward thing that I have read in this thread, and that's saying a lot. Please tell us you're joking about this, or hadn't thougth it through. Please. If you're serious, however, you should never, ever, again be engaged in any debate that involves, even tangentially, business or economics. If you actually think that greed STIFLES innovation, there is nothing that anyone can say to you that would bring you out of your fantasy-land. That statement: "Innovation is stifled by greed." is absolute, pure, 100% fantasy, stupid on its face, and represents the opposite of logic. You obviously don't post here a lot. This was actually pretty insightful for PastaJoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I didn't see any of them go belly up in 1999 when oil droped to $9 a bl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 You obviously don't post here a lot. This was actually pretty insightful for PastaJoe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Are you actually being serious here? This is the dumbest, most ass-backward thing that I have read in this thread, and that's saying a lot. Please tell us you're joking about this, or hadn't thougth it through. Please. If you're serious, however, you should never, ever, again be engaged in any debate that involves, even tangentially, business or economics. If you actually think that greed STIFLES innovation, there is nothing that anyone can say to you that would bring you out of your fantasy-land. That statement: "Innovation is stifled by greed." is absolute, pure, 100% fantasy, stupid on its face, and represents the opposite of logic. Give him a break. He's always been kankles man. Oh, and a socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I didn't see any of them go belly up in 1999 when oil droped to $9 a bl. Many of the niche exploration and extraction companies did, and overall employment was sharply down. The impact was masked by the job expansion during the dot-com boom. From a 1999 report "Employment Trends in Oil and Gas Extraction" http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/issues/oil_gas.html Between October 1997 and December 1998 the imported refiner acquisition cost of a barrel of oil dropped by almost half, from $18.73 per barrel to $9.39 per barrel.1 According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), U.S. Department of Labor, employment in the upstream oil and gas industry had declined by more than 50,000 jobs by February 1999, leaving the United States with less than half the number of oil and gas extraction jobs it had during the early 1980s, when oil prices were more than four times as high in real terms.: Oil and gas extraction activities are part of a larger petroleum industry, including petroleum refineries, wholesale terminals, and gasoline stations. Since 1972, employment in the entire petroleum industry has ranged from 1.3 to 1.7 million workers (Figure 1). Employment peaked in 1981, when the real imported refiner acquisition cost of a barrel of crude oil was almost $63 a barrel in 1997 dollars.4 Since then, petroleum industry employment has declined, as the numbers of oil and gas wells drilled, operating refineries, and wholesale jobbers have declined. : As the overall number of upstream oil and gas jobs has declined, they have become less important to State economies. In Texas, the State that has the most oil and gas extraction jobs and produces the most oil and gas, extraction jobs peaked in January 1982 at 313,700 or 5.0 percent of the total Texas labor market.10 By March 1999 the preliminary estimate for employment in upstream oil and gas had fallen to 149,800, less than half of the peak, and accounted for only 1.6 percent of the State’s total employment.11 While oil and gas jobs declined, the rest of the Texas economy grew, boosting total employment by more than 2.8 million over 18 years. As a result, the recent low oil prices have not hurt the Texas economy as much as they did in the 1980s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 I'm glad I haven't been predicting this downfall for nearly a decade on this board. The current "bailout" is only going to expedite the demise. There will be TRILLIONS of dollars given away with zero oversight. It makes the fervor over the "Bridges to Nowhere" look absolutely assinine. Right now, our government is acting EXACTLY like a third world dictatorship - giving politicians the ability to "bail out" corrupt entities with taxpayer money they don't actually have. This is not a result of the "Bush Administration", nor will "Change We Need" do anything contrary. You partisans are getting what you've been voting for for half a century. Keep marching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Are you actually being serious here? This is the dumbest, most ass-backward thing that I have read in this thread, and that's saying a lot. Please tell us you're joking about this, or hadn't thougth it through. Please. If you're serious, however, you should never, ever, again be engaged in any debate that involves, even tangentially, business or economics. If you actually think that greed STIFLES innovation, there is nothing that anyone can say to you that would bring you out of your fantasy-land. That statement: "Innovation is stifled by greed." is absolute, pure, 100% fantasy, stupid on its face, and represents the opposite of logic. Really? So the oil companies or their proxies don't patent innovation (or buy patents) and then sit on it them? You're lying to yourself if you think that the oil companies and Detroit haven't been in bed together for years, with significant help from the 'Ol boys network in D.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Really? So the oil companies or their proxies don't patent innovation (or buy patents) and then sit on it them? You're lying to yourself if you think that the oil companies and Detroit haven't been in bed together for years, with significant help from the 'Ol boys network in D.C. If they could make money on them, why are't they? 'Greed' isn't stifling innovation. Of course Detroit, Big Oil, and Big Government are in bed together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 It is pretty funny that people from Alaska, who take free oil money they don't work for, want to withhold assistance from others. I personally would like to see GM and Chrysler disappear but ... the timing is lousy. They have us over a barrel now, because the economy is so bad, with so many jobs lost, losing another 1-2m jobs at this time would probably put us into a worse tailspin. I yelled at my Congressman and got a 2-page letter back explaining their viewpoint (and he voted against the Wall Street bailout, both times) and I have to grudgingly admit that something has to be done. Not for these stupid companies but for the rest of us. I'm starting to think this situation is far, far worse than many people realize. We could just be at the edge of a precipice...of course, I've noted all along that greed and fiscal irresponsibility have got to have consequences, and here we are. I personally am freaking pissed that I have saved and invested all my life, I owe nothing but a reasonable mortgage, yet I am losing my nest egg AND will be paying for greedy pigs and fatcats forever, as will at least the next two or three generations. But it is what it is. If we still want to thumb our noses at OBL just before we give him that lethal injection, we're just going to have to suck it up and work together to get ourselves out of this mess. Because right now the US of A is looking pretty damned weak and stupid. First we panic after 9/11, allowing our government to behave an an un-American fashion, and then we "do" ourselves to death financially because we have no self-control. This could be another one of those chapters that future Americans point to proudly as to how we are survivors. Or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Outsource Congress to India - we'll get the same government leadership at a fraction of the price. Next in line for government bailouts: The Gaming industry The Designer Label retail industry The Newspaper industry The Magazine industry The Porn industry The Printing industry The Coal industry The Hotel industry The Rental Car industry The Sirius Radio monopoly The NFL The Agriculture Industry Amtrak The rest of the Railroad industry The Bus industry The Pharmaceutical industry The Special Interest Lobbyist industry The Restaurant industry Donald Trump No doubt there are more to come. Surely our government is big enough to save them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 It is pretty funny that people from Alaska, who take free oil money they don't work for, want to withhold assistance from others. There's no such thing as "free" money. I'm sorry you don't live in a state where the politicians actually did something smart by keeping the resource rights for the citizenry. It's not surprising at all that you "think" this is somehow a bad thing. And you're damn right I'm against assisting the automakers with BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars. They've had decades to fix what is wrong with them but have instead continued to do exactly the same things that got them started down the path in the first place. Giving them "free" money isn't likely to change their fundamentals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 If they could make money on them, why are't they? 'Greed' isn't stifling innovation. Of course Detroit, Big Oil, and Big Government are in bed together. Because dufus, they make more money by monopolizing the energy resources and limiting our choices of affortable alternatives. It is naive to think that nobody has invented technology that would do better than mass-produced 30mph gas fueled engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 It's "doofus" by the way. I was just advised by a friend in the business from my last job that Flying J has filed for bankruptcy. I think people see Flying J and think of truckstops but they also have a vast network of refineries and a complex logistics/delivery network too. It will be interesting to hear what's behind this ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 It is naive to think that nobody has invented technology that would do better than mass-produced 30mph gas fueled engines. It's more naive to think that you can implement this technology for less than the cost of $5/gal gasoline, or $10/gal gasoline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 It's more naive to think that you can implement this technology for less than the cost of $5/gal gasoline, or $10/gal gasoline. Hard to tell since they won't disclose the technology for public scrutiny, let alone admit it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Hard to tell since they won't disclose the technology for public scrutiny, let alone admit it exists. Who is "they?" Are you saying that the global oil cabal is suppressing the $$$ billions poured into alternative energy research so they can maintain their monopolies? Are you saying that solar, wind, nuclear & other technologies are more effective, but are being held down? What are you saying, other than your usual, nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts