whats wrong the big picture

[billybob]

1. The Bills don't beat people up on the lines they get beat up- when you win on the lines you feel like you are the better team even if you lose the game- when you lose at the line of scrimmage you feel like you got lucky if you win and you have trepidation about playing that team again.

 

2. the Bills Front office would rather overpay 5 mediocre players a million each rather than pay an extra 5million to a star player. How much difference is there in Dockery's contract compared to Hutchinson's.

[mike22nc]

1. The Bills don't beat people up on the lines they get beat up- when you win on the lines you feel like you are the better team even if you lose the game- when you lose at the line of scrimmage you feel like you got lucky if you win and you have trepidation about playing that team again.

 

2. the Bills Front office would rather overpay 5 mediocre players a million each rather than pay an extra 5million to a star player. How much difference is there in Dockery's contract compared to Hutchinson's.

 

1. This is not really the time to make that point. The offensive line has not been consistent this year, but yesterday they were pretty dominant against a very good run D.

 

2. What does this even mean? You say they aren't willing to overpay a player, then show that they paid Dockery as much as the highest paid G in the league.

[billybob]

1. This is not really the time to make that point. The offensive line has not been consistent this year, but yesterday they were pretty dominant against a very good run D.

 

2. What does this even mean? You say they aren't willing to overpay a player, then show that they paid Dockery as much as the highest paid G in the league.

 

1. What's not to understand - the Lines do not dominate the Bills O-line didn't get dominated but they didn't dominate- and the d-line stunk- and over the season both lines lost more battles than they won.

 

2. I'm saying because they refuse to pay the going rate for stars they end up overpaying mediocre players- Hutchinson was an all-pro, Dockery was the second or third best Guard out there, maybe to get Hutchinson to come to Buffalo you'd have to pay him a few million more but I bet he'd be a hell of a lot more productive.

[BillsObserver]

whats wrong the big picture

 

Huh?

 

Not quite sure what that means but I do understand your points. We've got overpaid, soft guys on both sides of the ball. No doubt about that.

[billybob]

Huh?

 

Not quite sure what that means but I do understand your points. We've got overpaid, soft guys on both sides of the ball. No doubt about that.

exactly- by big picture, I mean instead of always finding one or two guys to blame lets look at what seems to be the overriding philosophy of the Bills- draft boyscouts - get them coached by English professors- treat free agency like your uncle searching the penny savers looking for a bargain, if a player does become a star say he's too expensive to keep.

[Boatdrinks]

exactly- by big picture, I mean instead of always finding one or two guys to blame lets look at what seems to be the overriding philosophy of the Bills- draft boyscouts - get them coached by English professors- treat free agency like your uncle searching the penny savers looking for a bargain, if a player does become a star say he's too expensive to keep.

 

 

This theory sounds good, except it's ...FALSE. The Bills problem has zero to do with their payroll. They spend plenty. 16th out of 32 teams in payroll. Fine. There are more frugal teams out there. The Steelers come to mind as a frugal organization that is clearly a success. The difference is they have a philosophy. They draft a particular type of player, with a focus on the lines and defense. They refuse to overpay aging stars. they simply draft a "clone" player that fits their system. They rely on their scouting and drafting and occasionally supplement via free agency. The Bills have no philosophy and draft mainly for "needs". They are then forced to overpay via free agency for average players to make up for their poor drafting. It's a vicious cycle. Because of this lack of focus, the Bills excel at nothing in particular on the field. They are always in a cycle of changing their defensive scheme every few years so they often have a "square peg round hole" situation with players. Too many of their high picks have been at skill positions, who teams tend to not resign. Very rarely do quality O line or D line players reach free agency. Teams tend to resign those players. The Bills struggles could have been avoided by drafting high for linemen and linebackers vs corners and wideouts. A nate clements simply isn't as valuable to your team as a Tommie Harris, Richard Seymour etc. So you constantly lose a high number of your 1st round every few years. The Bills drafts of O and D linemen have been very poor. Mike Williams, Erik Flowers, John McCargo, Ron Edwards, Dusty Ziegler. It's a procession of mediocrity. They haven't drafted a quality O lineman since Ruben Brown. Their best D line draft pick since the mid nineties is Aaron Schobel, a good player but hardly dominant. Is it any wonder they struggle to win ballgames? You simply can't build a quality line via free agency alone. Our best D linemen since Bruce? Ted Washington, Sam Adams, pat Williams, Marcus Stroud. None of whom were drafted by the Bills. Our front office stinks by any measure, and is the root cause for the rudderless Bills we've watched since the Superbowl teams dwindled away.

[billybob]

my point is not that the Bills are the lowest spending team but that they don't want to spend on stars but end up overpaying mediocre players - like Kelsey, Kyle Williams, Brad Butler, Dockery and the like- because they don't spend on top of the line players they overpay these bums- when you have a Bruce Smith the next guy says when can I get paid like Bruce and you say Bruce is one in a million and you're a dime a dozen only with a little more tact - when Schobel is your best guy Kelsey can say there's not that much difference so pay me just a little less and Williams says hey I'm just as good as Kelsey pay me too.

Butler is almost as good as Dockery why shouldn't he get paid almost as much.

 

 

Pay for stars so you can pay bums less.

[DonInBuffalo]

The "big picture" is that the Bills organization from top to bottom right now is more about making money than winning football games. Let's go through what's happened just in the last year or so:

 

- Marv resigns. Instead of hiring a GM, Ralph promotes Brandon, who is essentially a businessman with no football background, to run the organization.

 

- Steve Fairchild quits to take another job. They promote Turk Schonert. Based on his track record as a QB coach, nobody in their right mind would consider him a legitimate OC candidate. His resume reads like a train wreck.

 

- Since Schonert was promoted to OC, they need a QB coach. Might as well promote AVP. I'm sure his year working as the QB coach for UB (when they were one of the worst teams in college football) and his year in NFLE more than qualifies him for the job.

 

- Jim McNally retires. Obviously the best choice is to promote Sean Kugler, even though he's never held the title of "OL coach" in the NFL, and has worked primarily with OT/TE at the NFL level. Should anyone really be surprised that our interior OL has struggled this season?

 

What do all of these personnel decisions have in common? In each case, the least expensive person was hired.

 

Of course, we could always talk about Toronto. Some teams have played an occasional game outside of the country at a neutral site, but the Bills took it to an entirely different level. They signed an agreement to play one of their home games at a neutral site for each of the next 5 years. Without a doubt, they compromised their chances of making the playoffs during that span by giving away (more accurately selling away) home field advantage, because money is more important than winning.

 

Here's the "big picture" as I see it, and it's not pretty. When Ralph dies, whoever buys the team is going to have to take on a substantial amount of debt, as in at least $500 million. Last I read, the Bills are making at least $30 million a year, but interest on that kind of debt would probably gobble that up and then some. Brandon's job is for all practical purposes strictly a financial one: build/maintain a business model for the Bills that will make them a viable purchase when Ralph dies. Here is the nightmare scenario Ralph is trying to avoid: He dies, the team is making marginal profit, making the team a very difficult sell in the short-term, because anyone buying the team might go broke just making interest payments before they can even work out a deal to move the team to another city. Because the team doesn't sell, one or more of Ralph's kids get stuck with this enormous debt, as in hundreds of millions in capital gains and inheritance taxes. It's quite possible in that scenario they would have to declare bankruptcy.

[bobobonators]

This theory sounds good, except it's ...FALSE. The Bills problem has zero to do with their payroll. They spend plenty. 16th out of 32 teams in payroll. Fine. There are more frugal teams out there. The Steelers come to mind as a frugal organization that is clearly a success. The difference is they have a philosophy. They draft a particular type of player, with a focus on the lines and defense. They refuse to overpay aging stars. they simply draft a "clone" player that fits their system. They rely on their scouting and drafting and occasionally supplement via free agency. The Bills have no philosophy and draft mainly for "needs". They are then forced to overpay via free agency for average players to make up for their poor drafting. It's a vicious cycle. Because of this lack of focus, the Bills excel at nothing in particular on the field. They are always in a cycle of changing their defensive scheme every few years so they often have a "square peg round hole" situation with players. Too many of their high picks have been at skill positions, who teams tend to not resign. Very rarely do quality O line or D line players reach free agency. Teams tend to resign those players. The Bills struggles could have been avoided by drafting high for linemen and linebackers vs corners and wideouts. A nate clements simply isn't as valuable to your team as a Tommie Harris, Richard Seymour etc. So you constantly lose a high number of your 1st round every few years. The Bills drafts of O and D linemen have been very poor. Mike Williams, Erik Flowers, John McCargo, Ron Edwards, Dusty Ziegler. It's a procession of mediocrity. They haven't drafted a quality O lineman since Ruben Brown. Their best D line draft pick since the mid nineties is Aaron Schobel, a good player but hardly dominant. Is it any wonder they struggle to win ballgames? You simply can't build a quality line via free agency alone. Our best D linemen since Bruce? Ted Washington, Sam Adams, pat Williams, Marcus Stroud. None of whom were drafted by the Bills. Our front office stinks by any measure, and is the root cause for the rudderless Bills we've watched since the Superbowl teams dwindled away.

 

great post

[Shamrock]

This theory sounds good, except it's ...FALSE. The Bills problem has zero to do with their payroll. They spend plenty. 16th out of 32 teams in payroll. Fine. There are more frugal teams out there. The Steelers come to mind as a frugal organization that is clearly a success. The difference is they have a philosophy. They draft a particular type of player, with a focus on the lines and defense. They refuse to overpay aging stars. they simply draft a "clone" player that fits their system. They rely on their scouting and drafting and occasionally supplement via free agency. The Bills have no philosophy and draft mainly for "needs". They are then forced to overpay via free agency for average players to make up for their poor drafting. It's a vicious cycle. Because of this lack of focus, the Bills excel at nothing in particular on the field. They are always in a cycle of changing their defensive scheme every few years so they often have a "square peg round hole" situation with players. Too many of their high picks have been at skill positions, who teams tend to not resign. Very rarely do quality O line or D line players reach free agency. Teams tend to resign those players. The Bills struggles could have been avoided by drafting high for linemen and linebackers vs corners and wideouts. A nate clements simply isn't as valuable to your team as a Tommie Harris, Richard Seymour etc. So you constantly lose a high number of your 1st round every few years. The Bills drafts of O and D linemen have been very poor. Mike Williams, Erik Flowers, John McCargo, Ron Edwards, Dusty Ziegler. It's a procession of mediocrity. They haven't drafted a quality O lineman since Ruben Brown. Their best D line draft pick since the mid nineties is Aaron Schobel, a good player but hardly dominant. Is it any wonder they struggle to win ballgames? You simply can't build a quality line via free agency alone. Our best D linemen since Bruce? Ted Washington, Sam Adams, pat Williams, Marcus Stroud. None of whom were drafted by the Bills. Our front office stinks by any measure, and is the root cause for the rudderless Bills we've watched since the Superbowl teams dwindled away.

 

They draft a particular type of player, with a focus on the lines and defense. Bingo

They refuse to overpay aging stars. they simply draft a "clone" player that fits their system. Bingo

They rely on their scouting and drafting and occasionally supplement via free agency. Bingo

They are always in a cycle of changing their defensive scheme every few years so they often have a "square peg round hole" situation with players. Bingo

 

...I endorse this post...

[bowery4]

The "big picture" is that the Bills organization from top to bottom right now is more about making money than winning football games. Let's go through what's happened just in the last year or so:

 

- Marv resigns. Instead of hiring a GM, Ralph promotes Brandon, who is essentially a businessman with no football background, to run the organization.

 

- Steve Fairchild quits to take another job. They promote Turk Schonert. Based on his track record as a QB coach, nobody in their right mind would consider him a legitimate OC candidate. His resume reads like a train wreck.

 

- Since Schonert was promoted to OC, they need a QB coach. Might as well promote AVP. I'm sure his year working as the QB coach for UB (when they were one of the worst teams in college football) and his year in NFLE more than qualifies him for the job.

 

- Jim McNally retires. Obviously the best choice is to promote Sean Kugler, even though he's never held the title of "OL coach" in the NFL, and has worked primarily with OT/TE at the NFL level. Should anyone really be surprised that our interior OL has struggled this season?

 

What do all of these personnel decisions have in common? In each case, the least expensive person was hired.

 

Of course, we could always talk about Toronto. Some teams have played an occasional game outside of the country at a neutral site, but the Bills took it to an entirely different level. They signed an agreement to play one of their home games at a neutral site for each of the next 5 years. Without a doubt, they compromised their chances of making the playoffs during that span by giving away (more accurately selling away) home field advantage, because money is more important than winning.

 

Here's the "big picture" as I see it, and it's not pretty. When Ralph dies, whoever buys the team is going to have to take on a substantial amount of debt, as in at least $500 million. Last I read, the Bills are making at least $30 million a year, but interest on that kind of debt would probably gobble that up and then some. Brandon's job is for all practical purposes strictly a financial one: build/maintain a business model for the Bills that will make them a viable purchase when Ralph dies. Here is the nightmare scenario Ralph is trying to avoid: He dies, the team is making marginal profit, making the team a very difficult sell in the short-term, because anyone buying the team might go broke just making interest payments before they can even work out a deal to move the team to another city. Because the team doesn't sell, one or more of Ralph's kids get stuck with this enormous debt, as in hundreds of millions in capital gains and inheritance taxes. It's quite possible in that scenario they would have to declare bankruptcy.

 

I pretty much agree with you but have trouble seeing the attendence level staying up there next year with the current HC, OC, QBC and lack of a GM in charge of FB ops. I think RW will make changes if we are 8/8 or less this year, he has been kind of vocal of late "did you see that fumble?" I would finish that with "WhyTF did he even have the ball........" RW is not dumb, he knows this hasn't worked but probliably wants to keep the consistency too, I am sure. I think the "it is the talent" thing was to call out the players (and it worked on ML). I DO think he IS thinking about the after tax value without doubt. Maybe they use the Peter Princable and promote DJ to GM of FB ops. Get him out of a playcalling role! and I for one am for it. Plus if he goes the cheap route BA might be a real coach STs are good year after year (well except this year when they have faultered with youngsters a bit).

[Dibs]

.......The Steelers come to mind as a frugal organization that is clearly a success. The difference is they have a philosophy. They draft a particular type of player, with a focus on the lines and defense........

Why can't people do a little bit of research before spouting their myths as facts for others to consume?

Looking at the past 10 years of Steelers drafting one would have to say that the area they have focused on which is well above the league norm would be WR/TE.

 

A comparison of Bills/Steelers first 3 rounds selections from the last 10 drafts.....numbers in brackets(1st round, 2nd round, 3rd round)

 

WR/TE

PIT(4, 2, 3)

BUF(1, 4, 1)

 

DL

PIT(1, 2, 2)

BUF(2, 3, 3)

 

OL

PIT(1, 1, 3)

BUF(1, 0, 3)

 

LB

PIT(1, 1, 1)

BUF(0, 1, 2)

 

DB

PIT(1, 3, 3)

BUF(4, 1, 2)

 

QB/RB

PIT(2, 0, 0)

BUF(3, 1, 2)

[R. Rich]

2. What does this even mean? You say they aren't willing to overpay a player, then show that they paid Dockery as much as the highest paid G in the league.

 

I think I get the point on this one. I think the point was that they'd shell out bucks to overpay guys like Chris Kelsay but wouldn't shell out bucks to keep a guy like Clements nor would they go out and spend the bucks on a high priced free agent like Hutchinson or like Julius Peppers could be (but probably won't; I still think Carolina will re-sign him).

[marauderswr80]

I can agree about the Lines part to a certain degree.......hear me out....

 

The Jets have a very good DL and our OL drove the ball down their throats all day long. As of late they have been really playing well.....But there is much room for improvements...

 

The DL, that DL has to be blown up.....Stroud can stay where he is, but the rest forget about them.....Kyle Williams might get a pass he plays decent ball.....but.....I still think we need another monster next to Stroud......DE's get rid of them all...every single one of them......Schobel, Kelsay, Denney they all have to take a hike! This is where Buffalo needs to make a huge impact in the free agent market.....

 

As for the front office they all suck and it starts at the top! With Ralph!

[Shamrock]

More in the Casey Hampton= Joel Steed type of drafting search. "Where do they keep finding Lbers?" kind of question. You get the picture.

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

bad team managemnt and personnel decisions, repeatedly, over and over, again and again.

 

[thewildrabbit]

The "big picture" is that the Bills organization from top to bottom right now is more about making money than winning football games. Let's go through what's happened just in the last year or so:

 

- Marv resigns. Instead of hiring a GM, Ralph promotes Brandon, who is essentially a businessman with no football background, to run the organization.

 

- Steve Fairchild quits to take another job. They promote Turk Schonert. Based on his track record as a QB coach, nobody in their right mind would consider him a legitimate OC candidate. His resume reads like a train wreck.

 

- Since Schonert was promoted to OC, they need a QB coach. Might as well promote AVP. I'm sure his year working as the QB coach for UB (when they were one of the worst teams in college football) and his year in NFLE more than qualifies him for the job.

 

- Jim McNally retires. Obviously the best choice is to promote Sean Kugler, even though he's never held the title of "OL coach" in the NFL, and has worked primarily with OT/TE at the NFL level. Should anyone really be surprised that our interior OL has struggled this season?

 

What do all of these personnel decisions have in common? In each case, the least expensive person was hired.

 

Of course, we could always talk about Toronto. Some teams have played an occasional game outside of the country at a neutral site, but the Bills took it to an entirely different level. They signed an agreement to play one of their home games at a neutral site for each of the next 5 years. Without a doubt, they compromised their chances of making the playoffs during that span by giving away (more accurately selling away) home field advantage, because money is more important than winning.

 

Here's the "big picture" as I see it, and it's not pretty. When Ralph dies, whoever buys the team is going to have to take on a substantial amount of debt, as in at least $500 million. Last I read, the Bills are making at least $30 million a year, but interest on that kind of debt would probably gobble that up and then some. Brandon's job is for all practical purposes strictly a financial one: build/maintain a business model for the Bills that will make them a viable purchase when Ralph dies. Here is the nightmare scenario Ralph is trying to avoid: He dies, the team is making marginal profit, making the team a very difficult sell in the short-term, because anyone buying the team might go broke just making interest payments before they can even work out a deal to move the team to another city. Because the team doesn't sell, one or more of Ralph's kids get stuck with this enormous debt, as in hundreds of millions in capital gains and inheritance taxes. It's quite possible in that scenario they would have to declare bankruptcy.

Say hello to the LA BILLS

 

I'm hoping Jim Kelly gets enough support behind him to buy the bills and keep them in Buffalo but at this stage it doesn't look likely.It almost looks as though the Bills FO want to lose support for the team to make it easier for them to move to a different city.

[Peace Frog]

What if Ralph, or his daughter for that matter, moved the team to LA? Cleveland got another team. Maybe we need a new team/owner. As much as I love the Bills, I'm sick of Ralph's meddling and tight-fistedness.

[Thurman#1]

1. What's not to understand - the Lines do not dominate the Bills O-line didn't get dominated but they didn't dominate- and the d-line stunk- and over the season both lines lost more battles than they won.

 

2. I'm saying because they refuse to pay the going rate for stars they end up overpaying mediocre players- Hutchinson was an all-pro, Dockery was the second or third best Guard out there, maybe to get Hutchinson to come to Buffalo you'd have to pay him a few million more but I bet he'd be a hell of a lot more productive.

 

 

So the only thing that would be acceptable to you would be picking up the best player at each position. It's just not realistic. And my guess is that until the problems at center have been addressed, our o-line simply won't be very good. Whereas when we have no weak links, every guy will look like he is playing much better than he has before.

[Thurman#1]

Here's the "big picture" as I see it, and it's not pretty. When Ralph dies, whoever buys the team is going to have to take on a substantial amount of debt, as in at least $500 million. Last I read, the Bills are making at least $30 million a year, but interest on that kind of debt would probably gobble that up and then some. Brandon's job is for all practical purposes strictly a financial one: build/maintain a business model for the Bills that will make them a viable purchase when Ralph dies. Here is the nightmare scenario Ralph is trying to avoid: He dies, the team is making marginal profit, making the team a very difficult sell in the short-term, because anyone buying the team might go broke just making interest payments before they can even work out a deal to move the team to another city. Because the team doesn't sell, one or more of Ralph's kids get stuck with this enormous debt, as in hundreds of millions in capital gains and inheritance taxes. It's quite possible in that scenario they would have to declare bankruptcy.

 

 

 

Have trouble selling an NFL football team? It would be the first time in modern NFL history. Guys are lining up to buy, as it's the highest profile thing a mega-millionaire can do. It's great for the ego. They absolutely will not have trouble selling this team. And when somebody buys it, they will certainly NOT go broke before they can move. Moving will not take that much time if they decide to do it. very little time at all. Yes, debt will be a problem, particularly in keeping the team in Buffalo. No, if they decide to move, there will be no more than minor financial problems, in terms of the scale these guys work at.

 

The NFL doesn't approve sales of teams to people with the slightest risk of going broke, and yet billionaires line up in flying wedges to buy even teams that are losing money.

 

This will NOT be a problem for the Wilson family after Mr. Wilson's death, except for paying the tax lawyers to shield as much of the huge windfall as possible.

 

Mr. Wilson is consistently working on making the Bills profitable because THAT IS WHAT YOU DO IF YOU OWN A BUSINESS! Virtually without exception.