BTW, is anyone still down on McKelvin?

[Guest dog14787]

True, to a point. For some top flight stars, I don't even think it is easy.

 

I do think it is easier to attract quality linemen to Buffalo, than it is quality "skill position" players. QBs, RBs, WRs and CBs live in the limelight, crave media coverage and endorsements. OTOH, linemen are always more annonymous and don't get that kind of exposure. Buffalo is a fine place for a big ugly. Of course, as Bill will point out, there typically are fewer quality linemen in FA.

 

Still. every team uses a mix of draft picks and FAs to build their team. Tennesse has ONE original draft pick on their starting line...the rest were acquired through FA.

 

 

Its not easy or we would have a good TE right now.

 

McKelvin is awesome.

[Wooderson]

I think Leodis is the real deal. Considering he only has a few CB starts under his belt, I like his progress, a LOT. His return game is strong as hell, too.

 

Now, I know that there are people (hi Bill) who don't like DBs picked in the first round, and would be happier with a bust lineman. But, that aside, the crap this guy was taking after his first start was not deserved. He is a star in the making, IMO.

 

I completely agree, this guy has been great the last few games. He seems like he's really starting to pick things up and get comfortable in the defense. I think he's gonna be a strong corner as he matures. His returns are nasty.

[Bill from NYC]

Show me where I implied that it is EASY for the Bills to get FAs.

 

Go ahead, since you are in attack mode...back it up.

 

>>>But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee.<<<

 

This implies that "if Tennessee can do it, so can the Bills," doesn't it?

 

Brian, who was the last star blocker drafted by the Bills? I am going to go with Ruben Brown, and that was in 1995!!!!!! Now, why don't you read through this and count the first day defensive backs since then. I make the case that you defend the indefensible because of your admiration for Levy, the guy who brought us Jauron. Your loyalty is to be admired, but the result of the Levy/Jauron mess is a crew of small, highly paid defensive backs and no pass rush, and continued holes up front on the offensive side.

 

Besides....."attack mode?" You mentioned me in the OP, no? Remember, I like bust linemen more than good players? I wish you were still in these parts to watch games. I just bought a new TV. There.....there's my freaking attack.

 

Is losing taking a personal toll on us?

[Guest dog14787]

>>>But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee.<<<

 

This implies that "if Tennessee can do it, so can the Bills," doesn't it?

 

Brian, who was the last star blocker drafted by the Bills? I am going to go with Ruben Brown, and that was in 1995!!!!!! Now, why don't you read through this and count the first day defensive backs since then. I make the case that you defend the indefensible because of your admiration for Levy, the guy who brought us Jauron. Your loyalty is to be admired, but the result of the Levy/Jauron mess is a crew of small, highly paid defensive backs and no pass rush, and continued holes up front on the offensive side.

 

Besides....."attack mode?" You mentioned me in the OP, no? Remember, I like bust linemen more than good players? I wish you were still in these parts to watch games. I just bought a new TV. There.....there's my freaking attack.

 

Is losing taking a personal toll on us?

 

Nashville is an attractive place to go with a winning tradition, what makes you think Buffalo has anything to attract players besides money?

 

If we did, Crumpler might be playing for us instead of the Titans.

[Steely Dan]

[/b]

Not sold? It was outright a phantom call, they replayed it on TV, and the commentators stated something like, "oh yeah,

there it is, he brushed his facemask", if that was a push in the back, then the moon is made of cheese. OBTW, not sure

who was the victim, I think it was Stroud that was clearly held on the Jets first offensive play from scrimmage, a 20 some

yard completion. They hate us.

 

I couldn't even see his hand on the facemask! It was definitely a phantom call.

[Dawgg]

To try and put a simplistic one line rule on a massively complex situation is ludicrous......and the actual facts never support the rule.

 

To try and complicate a fairly simple equation to justify the continued mismanagement of the Buffalo Bills franchise is even more ludicrous.

 

The bottom line: For years, the Bills front office has drafted poorly and misallocated free agent resources. Hence, the playoff drought.

[VOR]

Nashville is an attractive place to go with a winning tradition, what makes you think Buffalo has anything to attract players besides money?

The Titans have a "winning tradition?" Not really. But yes, Buffalo isn't a place players want to go, unless they're well-paid.

 

If we did, Crumpler might be playing for us instead of the Titans.

Forget Crumpler: Gonzalez.

[The Dean]

>>>But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee.<<<

 

This implies that "if Tennessee can do it, so can the Bills," doesn't it?

 

Brian, who was the last star blocker drafted by the Bills? I am going to go with Ruben Brown, and that was in 1995!!!!!! Now, why don't you read through this and count the first day defensive backs since then. I make the case that you defend the indefensible because of your admiration for Levy, the guy who brought us Jauron. Your loyalty is to be admired, but the result of the Levy/Jauron mess is a crew of small, highly paid defensive backs and no pass rush, and continued holes up front on the offensive side.

 

Besides....."attack mode?" You mentioned me in the OP, no? Remember, I like bust linemen more than good players? I wish you were still in these parts to watch games. I just bought a new TV. There.....there's my freaking attack.

 

Is losing taking a personal toll on us?

 

 

I don't think it's easy to attract good FAs. I also don't think it is easy to draft players that consistently perform well. You want to attack Levy's draft strategy, fine. But, to say that this team isn't in better shape, top-to-bottom, than what it was in 2005 is insane, IMO.

 

Despite what you and Dwagg think, this has NOTHING to do with my "admiration of Levy". That is total nonsense. I'm just not a knee-jerk hater. I even defended TD for many years, as the attacks on him were disproportionate to his drafts. After he didn't address issues that needed to be addressed, in five years of his reign, it was clear that he needed to go. But, even TD wasn't the horrible nightmare that many make him out to be. He was a gambler, that lost too many rolls of the dice. What Levy had to do, was build a team that was ravaged by those gambling losses, and he did a fine job, in the two drafts he oversaw, This team is no longer an aging mess, with giant holes in important positions. If you can't acknowledge that, then I think it is YOUR feeling about Levy getting in the way.

[Bill from NYC]

This team is no longer an aging mess, with giant holes in important positions. If you can't acknowledge that, then I think it is YOUR feeling about Levy getting in the way.

 

True. We are now a younger mess, with gaping holes at important positions. We have 1 DT. The rest suck. We have 1 DE. The rest suck. We have 2 professional caliber LBs. The rest suck. We have no TEs. They all suck. We have 2 Centers. To say they suck is to give them undue praise. One of them is shoving a football up his ass. Our OGs are so-so. I am seeing holes Brian, how about you?

 

Somebody has to be held accountable for this mess. Obviously, Ralph gets the lion's share of the blame for bringing in an 80 year old Levy who nobody else would have hired. I think that this is beyond dispute. Levy then hired a coach who is a tried and true serial loser, that has virtually no chance at taking a team to a playoff spot, ever. So..... no, they didn't hire themselves. Ralph did it, and is now rewarding this complete failure of a coach with a new contract, and presumably a raise.

Did we do something awful to deserve this garbage?

 

It doesn't matter that these guys are Ivy League Grads, and the little quips stopped being cute a long time ago. We need to win games, not only to enjoy our team, but perhaps even to save the franchise.

Dick Levy just aint cuttin' it.

[Dawgg]

Despite what you and Dwagg think, this has NOTHING to do with my "admiration of Levy". That is total nonsense. I'm just not a knee-jerk hater. I even defended TD for many years, as the attacks on him were disproportionate to his drafts. After he didn't address issues that needed to be addressed, in five years of his reign, it was clear that he needed to go. But, even TD wasn't the horrible nightmare that many make him out to be. He was a gambler, that lost too many rolls of the dice. What Levy had to do, was build a team that was ravaged by those gambling losses, and he did a fine job, in the two drafts he oversaw, This team is no longer an aging mess, with giant holes in important positions. If you can't acknowledge that, then I think it is YOUR feeling about Levy getting in the way.

 

I won't even discuss Whitner. For argument sake, I will agree with you that Whitner is an all-pro caliber player

 

The defensive end position is worse off today than it was when Levy took over. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big money deal forced the Bills hand into resigning an aging Schobel with 3 years left on his deal. No wonder the Bills can't get a pass rush. Both those moves were big mistakes. For a team limited on resources, devoting such heavy resources to a player like Chris Kelsay is the epitome of the amateur-like moves made by the front office.

 

Levy's hard-on for Poz cost the team a high third round pick. In doing so, he moved up in the draft to nab a player who has yet to distinguish himself as a premier player. Granted it's early in his career, David Harris of the Jets, who was taken just a few picks later in the same draft, has shown far more athleticism and ability than Poz has. The defense was better off with London Fletcher manning the middle, despite fans' eagerness to run him out of town.

 

The McCargo pick set this franchise back significantly. When you trade up in a deep draft, the pressure to hit on the pick increases exponentially. McCargo has been an abject bust and the Bills have paid dearly in the form of shoddy DL play. Stroud was a nice acquisition, but it was a move that had to be made in order to fix the mess Levy created.

 

The Dockery and Walker signings were flat out stupid. To say that Levy addressed the offensive line by signing Dockery and Walker is like me justifying the purchase of a Honda for the price of a Ferrari. Good teams in small markets spend their dollars wisely. Dockery is simply not a dominant interior lineman, yet he is paid like one. It's no wonder that Jason Peters is upset with his deal. And it's no wonder the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs in 9 years.

 

Marv Levy's strategy: Ignoring the offensive line in the draft, then following that up by overpaying marginal players. Not a winning formula. The product on the field speaks for itself.

 

Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch and Trend Edwards are impact players and represent bright spots from the Levy regime. Aside from that, Levy has done little to improve the outlook of this franchise.

[Guest dog14787]

I won't even discuss Whitner. For argument sake, I will agree with you that Whitner is an all-pro caliber player

 

The defensive end position is worse off today than it was when Levy took over. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big money deal forced the Bills hand into resigning an aging Schobel with 3 years left on his deal. No wonder the Bills can't get a pass rush. Both those moves were big mistakes. For a team limited on resources, devoting such heavy resources to a player like Chris Kelsay is the epitome of the amateur-like moves made by the front office.

 

Levy's hard-on for Poz cost the team a high third round pick. In doing so, he moved up in the draft to nab a player who has yet to distinguish himself as a premier player. Granted it's early in his career, David Harris of the Jets, taken in the same draft has shown far more athleticism and ability than Poz has. The defense was better off with London Fletcher manning the middle, despite fans' eagerness to run him out of town.

 

The McCargo pick set this franchise back significantly. When you trade up in a deep draft, the pressure to hit on the pick increases exponentially. McCargo has been an abject bust and the Bills have paid dearly in the form of shoddy DL play. Stroud was a nice acquisition, but it was a move that had to be made in order to fix the mess Levy created.

 

The Dockery and Walker signings were flat out stupid. To say that Levy addressed the offensive line by signing Dockery and Walker is like me justifying the purchase of a Honda for the price of a Ferrari. Good teams in small markets spend their dollars wisely. Dockery is simply not a dominant interior lineman, yet he is paid like one. It's no wonder that Jason Peters is upset with his deal. And it's no wonder the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs in 9 years.

 

Marv Levy's strategy: Ignoring the offensive line in the draft, then following that up by overpaying marginal players. Not a winning formula. The product on the field speaks for itself.

 

Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch and Trend Edwards are impact players and represent bright spots from the Levy regime. Aside from that, Levy has done little to improve the outlook of this franchise.

 

 

You say the Dockery and Walker signings were stupid yet we clearly needed to improve Our O-line. How do you suppose we do this without bringing in FA's that are proven? Drafing them can be hit and miss.

 

In my opinion the O-line has been playing pretty doggon good as of late.

[Dawgg]

In my opinion the O-line has been playing pretty doggon good as of late.

 

They have played well by Buffalo Bills standards, which is pathetically low. Yes, the line has stepped up its game since the Cleveland game, but the bottom line is that Dockery and Walker aren't consistent enough to justify their exorbitant salaries.

 

You say that drafting linemen is hit or miss. Drafting anything is hit or miss -- but when you have a good scouting department, the chances of a miss diminish greatly. Look at Carolina and see how they built the key components of their line.

[BillsVet]

Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big money deal forced the Bills hand into resigning an aging Schobel with 3 years left on his deal. No wonder the Bills can't get a pass rush. Both those moves were big mistakes. For a team limited on resources, devoting such heavy resources to a player like Chris Kelsay is the epitome of the amateur-like moves made by the front office.

Dockery is simply not a dominant interior lineman, yet he is paid like one. It's no wonder that Jason Peters is upset with his deal. And it's no wonder the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs in 9 years.

 

I have to wonder if Marv even remotely thought there'd be repercussions by handing out deals to Kelsay and Dockery. Like clockwork, Schobel and Peters came calling, and the former received a huge deal as a result of a moderate deal for Kelsay. And Peters will get a mega-deal at some point this off-season because Dockery got big money.

 

Don't the front office number crunchers have the savvy to realize players want to be paid when someone close to them gets a fat contract? Don't they anticipate human nature, which is to say that people get jealous when someone makes more money and doesn't produce like they can?

 

You don't have to have an Ivy League or Ivy-League caliber degree to read between the lines to see Marv and Dick are guys with great diplomas and plenty of book smarts. Their demonstrated lack of football savvy, both in personnel and on the field leave a lot to be desired.

[Dawgg]

I have to wonder if Marv even remotely thought there'd be repercussions by handing out deals to Kelsay and Dockery. Like clockwork, Schobel and Peters came calling, and the former received a huge deal as a result of a moderate deal for Kelsay. And Peters will get a mega-deal at some point this off-season because Dockery got big money.

 

In today's NFL, being good at evaluating talent isn't enough. You need to understand talent and how it works in the context of your salary cap. You have to place the appropriate value on players and understand what you are paying them relative to their open market value.

 

Marv openly used to talk about how he didn't know anything about that "cap stuff" which is one of the reasons he was such an awful GM.

[BADOLBILZ]

But which are the non exceptions that actually prove the rule? There are many bad teams that have invested heavily in the draft obtaining linemen.......there are many good teams that have invested to similar levels as the Bills have in drafting linemen......there are many bad teams that have invested to similar levels as the Bills have in drafting linemen......there are a couple of good teams that have invested heavily in the draft obtaining linemen.

 

THERE IS NO RULE!

To try and put a simplistic one line rule on a massively complex situation is ludicrous......and the actual facts never support the rule.

 

There is a rule. Games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage. It's time tested. How teams get good at the LOS may vary, but when you don't make an honest attempt on draft day, you better be getting it done otherwise. The Bills don't. Meanwhile, the dominant team in the league this decade resides in their own division and continues to manhandle them game after game, season after season, with Brady or without using an offensive and defensive line of homegrown players of excellent draft pedigree.

[Dibs]

There is a rule. Games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage. It's time tested. How teams get good at the LOS may vary, but when you don't make an honest attempt on draft day, you better be getting it done otherwise. The Bills don't. Meanwhile, the dominant team in the league this decade resides in their own division and continues to manhandle them game after game, season after season, with Brady or without using an offensive and defensive line of homegrown players of excellent draft pedigree.

Yes. I agree that the LOS is vital. To imply that the Bills FO does not know this is and ignores it is simply not true. All of the decent-big contracts handed out on this team have been to the trenches(Evans excepted). The problem hasn't been that we have not tried to shore up the lines......it's that they made mistakes on over-paying for under-performing linemen.

 

The problem is not positional strategy......the problem is talent analysis(or coaching perhaps).

[Steely Dan]

They have played well by Buffalo Bills standards, which is pathetically low. Yes, the line has stepped up its game since the Cleveland game, but the bottom line is that Dockery and Walker aren't consistent enough to justify their exorbitant salaries.

 

You say that drafting linemen is hit or miss. Drafting anything is hit or miss -- but when you have a good scouting department, the chances of a miss diminish greatly. Look at Carolina and see how they built the key components of their line.

 

I want to see what the guards can do once a decent center is put between them.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Yes. I agree that the LOS is vital. To imply that the Bills FO does not know this is and ignores it is simply not true. All of the decent-big contracts handed out on this team have been to the trenches(Evans excepted). The problem hasn't been that we have not tried to shore up the lines......it's that they made mistakes on over-paying for under-performing linemen.

 

The problem is not positional strategy......the problem is talent analysis(or coaching perhaps).

A certain Buffalo Bills front office person once said, "Building a line is no big deal. You just get 5 fat guys and get them to play together." Does that sound like a front office that has good strategic planning and has its sh-- wired down real tight?

 

BTW, overpaying for average or below talent (Dockery, Walker, Teague, Kelsay), signing guys that don't fit the system or just can't play (Fowler, Reyes, Tripplett), drafting big-time busts (McCargo, Williams) are all systems of a common disease: the Bills as an organization just aren't very good at evaluating line play. You need a higher hit rate than Jason Peters and Aaron Schobel in 8-9 years.

[BillsVet]

A certain Buffalo Bills front office person once said, "Building a line is no big deal. You just get 5 fat guys and get them to play together." Does that sound like a front office that has good strategic planning and has its sh-- wired down real tight?

 

BTW, overpaying for average or below talent (Dockery, Walker, Teague, Kelsay), signing guys that don't fit the system or just can't play (Fowler, Reyes, Tripplett), drafting big-time busts (McCargo, Williams) are all systems of a common disease: the Bills as an organization just aren't very good at evaluating line play. You need a higher hit rate than Jason Peters and Aaron Schobel in 8-9 years.

 

Personally, I don't think that front office is good at evaluating anything. When they do find a guy, it's pure luck, but that's JMO. A quality front office, finds talent throughout the draft. Even though Donahoe wasn't spectacular by any means, that 06 draft isn't all that great from rounds 2-6. 07 looks the same wrt to middle rounds, and the book remains out in 08.

 

UFA is also a bungled mess since 2006, which coincides with Marv's majestical entrance as GM emeritus. I don't think it's a coincidence that ML drafted poorly with DJ. ML had BP to make him look good from 87-93.

 

Outside of first rounders, who can this team point to in the past few years from rounds 3-5 that are quality players. That's where scouts make their money, and they don't do it in Buffalo.

[Dibs]

.....Outside of first rounders, who can this team point to in the past few years from rounds 3-5 that are quality players. That's where scouts make their money, and they don't do it in Buffalo.

Williams & Butler are possibly decent starter level......put some quality next to them & they might show better ability. Ellis, Corner & Fine.....who knows at this point? Simpson most probably won't cut it in the long run IMO. Youboty looks good.....injury issues seem like they will doom him. I haven't given up on Edwards yet either