BTW, is anyone still down on McKelvin?

[BADOLBILZ]

I think Leodis is the real deal. Considering he only has a few CB starts under his belt, I like his progress, a LOT. His return game is strong as hell, too.

 

Now, I know that there are people (hi Bill) who don't like DBs picked in the first round, and would be happier with a bust lineman. But, that aside, the crap this guy was taking after his first start was not deserved. He is a star in the making, IMO.

 

Bad form. This team was just eliminated from the playoffs for the 9th straight season and you are trying to gloat about McKelvin looking like he could become a good player. Dean, check the track record, the Bills have a very good track record with regard to getting good players with THEIR FIRST pick. In the 7 years prior to this, they've *technically* succeeded in getting a good player with that first pick 5 times. That's not bad. If McKelvin pans out that's 6 of 8.

 

Yes, some people jumped on McKelvin for not providing anything early in the season, but the real issue is that the team has had consistently poor line play and with the exception of that bust Mike Williams, they haven't used any of their other first picks on a lineman. Truthfully, if you want a draft do-over, the Bills should have taken Ryan Clady.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Bad form. This team was just eliminated from the playoffs for the 9th straight season and you are trying to gloat about McKelvin looking like he could become a good player. Dean, check the track record, the Bills have a very good track record with regard to getting good players with THEIR FIRST pick. In the 7 years prior to this, they've *technically* succeeded in getting a good player with that first pick 5 times. That's not bad. If McKelvin pans out that's 6 of 8.

 

Yes, some people jumped on McKelvin for not providing anything early in the season, but the real issue is that the team has had consistently poor line play and with the exception of that bust Mike Williams, they haven't used any of their other first picks on a lineman. Truthfully, if you want a draft do-over, the Bills should have taken Ryan Clady.

 

Stop making sense, will you? Don't know you should draft "best player available?"

 

</orthodox TSW thought>

[lets_go_bills]

I think Leodis is the real deal. Considering he only has a few CB starts under his belt, I like his progress, a LOT. His return game is strong as hell, too.

 

Now, I know that there are people (hi Bill) who don't like DBs picked in the first round, and would be happier with a bust lineman. But, that aside, the crap this guy was taking after his first start was not deserved. He is a star in the making, IMO.

 

The guy just gets better every game.

[ganesh]

Yes, some people jumped on McKelvin for not providing anything early in the season, but the real issue is that the team has had consistently poor line play and with the exception of that bust Mike Williams, they haven't used any of their other first picks on a lineman. Truthfully, if you want a draft do-over, the Bills should have taken Ryan Clady.

 

Todays loss was not due to the OL....Just like the wimpy play calling in prior games, the OC doesn't know when to go for the kill and when to play safe....You have to have game sense to do that....The bills D has not given a single 1st down in the 4th qtr and had just stopped the Jets offense midfield....What play do you make with your BACKUP QB....Losman is no Trent Edwards......Losman, Schonert and Jauron lost this game for us.

[BuffaloWings]

Me, neither. But, I really didn't want to turn this into a "I told you so", so I didn't mention that. But, now that you did.

 

I just wondered if people had come around.

 

And to those that mentioned it, yes Steve Johnson is looking like a nice acquisition and so is Fine.

I've come around, Dean. In fact, I don't think I was ever down on him. I was waiting to see what he could do and Greer's injury seemed like a blessing in disguise for Leodis.

 

I'm liking Steve Johnson more & more. As someone said, he seems to have a knack of making catches at the right time and he made a couple to covert 3rd downs today. Going into 2009 camp, I have him above Hardy on the depth chart.

[The Dean]

Bad form. This team was just eliminated from the playoffs for the 9th straight season and you are trying to gloat about McKelvin looking like he could become a good player. Dean, check the track record, the Bills have a very good track record with regard to getting good players with THEIR FIRST pick. In the 7 years prior to this, they've *technically* succeeded in getting a good player with that first pick 5 times. That's not bad. If McKelvin pans out that's 6 of 8.

 

Yes, some people jumped on McKelvin for not providing anything early in the season, but the real issue is that the team has had consistently poor line play and with the exception of that bust Mike Williams, they haven't used any of their other first picks on a lineman. Truthfully, if you want a draft do-over, the Bills should have taken Ryan Clady.

 

 

Wow, talk about "bad fom", BADO, that may be your most pointless post, ever. There was absolutely NO gloating involved. Excuse me for noticing a small positive that hasn't been discussed much, amidst all the negativity. The bolded part of your post was the REAL issue of the thread, and I was wondering if these folks had come around.

 

For the record, I was plenty negative, and angry, in other (more appropriate) threads, today. This wasn't about "today".

 

Seriously, I find your response rather offensive and immature.

 

As for who the Bills "should have picked" I always find that to be a folly, for the most part. If the guy they chose, is delivering what they thought he could deliver, then I consider that a successful pick. Most teams could have done better, in retrospect, on one of their picks (and many, or most, on their first round pick) if they had the first year's results in advance.

 

I agree that the Bills have done well with their 1st picks. Others here, will disagree, of course.

[BB2004]

I think Leodis is the real deal. Considering he only has a few CB starts under his belt, I like his progress, a LOT. His return game is strong as hell, too.

 

Now, I know that there are people (hi Bill) who don't like DBs picked in the first round, and would be happier with a bust lineman. But, that aside, the crap this guy was taking after his first start was not deserved. He is a star in the making, IMO.

 

I liked this pick from day one and we have someone who looks like is going to be a difference maker. He is definitely improving and is certainly a positive from this game.

[BADOLBILZ]

Todays loss was not due to the OL....Just like the wimpy play calling in prior games, the OC doesn't know when to go for the kill and when to play safe....You have to have game sense to do that....The bills D has not given a single 1st down in the 4th qtr and had just stopped the Jets offense midfield....What play do you make with your BACKUP QB....Losman is no Trent Edwards......Losman, Schonert and Jauron lost this game for us.

 

This team usually loses 9-10 times per season. Over the long haul, that's line play.

[BADOLBILZ]

Wow, talk about "bad fom", BADO, that may be your most pointless post, ever. There was absolutely NO gloating involved. Excuse me for noticing a small positive that hasn't been discussed much, amidst all the negativity. The bolded part of your post was the REAL issue of the thread, and I was wondering if these folks had come around.

 

For the record, I was plenty negative, and angry, in other (more appropriate) threads, today. This wasn't about "today".

 

Seriously, I find your response rather offensive and immature.

 

As for who the Bills "should have picked" I always find that to be a folly, for the most part. If the guy they chose, is delivering what they thought he could deliver, then I consider that a successful pick. Most teams could have done better, in retrospect, on one of their picks (and many, or most, on their first round pick) if they had the first year's results in advance.

 

I agree that the Bills have done well with their 1st picks. Others here, will disagree, of course.

 

You find it pointless because you obviously don't get it. The Bills success in the first round of the draft has been hollow, and the McKelvin pick is true to form.

 

Of course we love how he's playing. I mean, if it weren't for McKelvin it is even possible the Bills don't win a single game in the second half of this season. His play blew open the KC game.

 

But the cumulative effect of drafting first round CB's to replace first round CB's, and first round RB's to replace first round RB's and even drafting a first round QB to replace a QB you traded a first round pick for DOES NOT WORK.

 

All the while our O-Line is composed on not one consistently productive player that the team drafted and the D-line has one above average player, a 30 something Marcus Stroud who also was not drafted by the team. And yeah, having Schobel would be great, but even he was drafted 8 years ago.

 

You can find folly in who the Bills should have picked, but the Bills should regret their *successful* draft history this decade.

[spartacus]

You find it pointless because you obviously don't get it. The Bills success in the first round of the draft has been hollow, and the McKelvin pick is true to form.

 

Of course we love how he's playing. I mean, if it weren't for McKelvin it is even possible the Bills don't win a single game in the second half of this season. His play blew open the KC game.

 

But the cumulative effect of drafting first round CB's to replace first round CB's, and first round RB's to replace first round RB's and even drafting a first round QB to replace a QB you traded a first round pick for DOES NOT WORK.

 

All the while our O-Line is composed on not one consistently productive player that the team drafted and the D-line has one above average player, a 30 something Marcus Stroud who also was not drafted by the team. And yeah, having Schobel would be great, but even he was drafted 8 years ago.

 

You can find folly in who the Bills should have picked, but the Bills should regret their *successful* draft history this decade.

 

you are clearly mistaken.

 

it is always better to draft a cover corner (or 3) and then have them play 10 yards off in a soft zone so they never use the skills that forced you to use a top 12 pick.

 

The Bills failure to draft more than 4 linemen in the last 10 years at the top of the draft is how all good teams build themselves into a contender.

[The Dean]

You find it pointless because you obviously don't get it.

 

 

It was pointless as my post wasn't directed at asking whether or not McKelvin was the right pick for the Bills, it was simply a reappraisal of what people thought of his performance. You took the opportunity to hijack the thread, and make a personal attack at the same time.

 

Well done.

 

 

Anyway, the reasoning behind the draft, and the effectiveness of the Bills draft, is another matter, entirely (and was NOT the point of the thread). I don't disagree that, for many years, this team failed to address the interior of the offense and defense. I think they have done a better job since TD left, though, as they brought in FA linemen that are, at least, competent. As bad as some think this line is, it is far better than what the team had several years ago. Sure, they need more bodies, and an upgrade at Center.

 

But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee. The Titans drafted a RB last year, and a DB two of the previous three years.

 

Ergo, they must suck. Right?

[The Dean]

you are clearly mistaken.

 

it is always better to draft a cover corner (or 3) and then have them play 10 yards off in a soft zone so they never use the skills that forced you to use a top 12 pick.

 

The Bills failure to draft more than 4 linemen in the last 10 years at the top of the draft is how all good teams build themselves into a contender.

 

 

Or should they acquire big linemen, and then not use them to abuse the defensive line, in the running game?

 

I agree that the way the team uses its current talent is atrocious, at times.

[VOR]

The Bills miss McNally. And losing Schobel was a killer. Since we're playing 20/20 hindsight and all.

 

BTW, at least McKelvin wasn't inactive today, like Vernon Gholston was.

[BillsVet]

Dean-

 

Your defense of Buffalo's front office continues to amaze me. Over the long haul, we're finding that numerous personnel mistakes have saddled this franchise. It was previously the TD excuse that Buffalo was unable to reach the post-season. But increasingly, it's the very people you've supported who are directly responsible for having a perennially mediocre team that joined the Lions for most consecutive season minus a playoff berth. That means Marv, and his coach-select, DJ.

 

Let's man-up and admit that hiring Levy was a mistake, as was trusting DJ with any shred of personnel decisions. Consensus is something that looks good on an inspirational poster inside corporate offices, not something to use while handling personnel decisions. Consensus is another way to keep a majority of people happy, which is to say, it might not be correct.

 

Marv Levy and Dick Jauron made bad decision after bad decision in the front office during 06 and 07. RW approved this and then further bungled the front office by neglecting to name a GM when it was realized ML would step down.

 

When we look at teams league wide, we see every one of them has someone guiding personnel. Buffalo delegates this function to Guy and Modrak whose record is a question mark, considering that the consensus approach clouds who is really at fault for a given decision.

 

Furthermore, when Bills fans look across the NFL, they see franchises lapping them on the track to success. Since 2001, Carolina has gone from being bad to good to bad to being good again. Almost the same can be said for Atlanta, Baltimore, and Miami.

 

When more Bills fans start looking at how successful franchises are run, they'll see how inept our front office remains.

[Bill from NYC]

I think Leodis is the real deal. Considering he only has a few CB starts under his belt, I like his progress, a LOT. His return game is strong as hell, too.

 

Now, I know that there are people (hi Bill) who don't like DBs picked in the first round, and would be happier with a bust lineman. But, that aside, the crap this guy was taking after his first start was not deserved. He is a star in the making, IMO.

 

Right.....I would be happier with a bust lineman.

 

McKelvin is a good player. I posted last week that in my humble opinion, he even has potential for greatness.

That said, he is virtually useless on this team other than the kick returns. Whitner, another good player, is entirely useless. Why? Because he has to sit back and play center field. There is no pass rush nor run defense on this team? This is because of the way it was constructed by Dick Levy.

[The Dean]

Dean-

 

Your defense of Buffalo's front office continues to amaze me. Over the long haul, we're finding that numerous personnel mistakes have saddled this franchise. It was previously the TD excuse that Buffalo was unable to reach the post-season. But increasingly, it's the very people you've supported who are directly responsible for having a perennially mediocre team that joined the Lions for most consecutive season minus a playoff berth. That means Marv, and his coach-select, DJ.

 

Let's man-up and admit that hiring Levy was a mistake, as was trusting DJ with any shred of personnel decisions. Consensus is something that looks good on an inspirational poster inside corporate offices, not something to use while handling personnel decisions. Consensus is another way to keep a majority of people happy, which is to say, it might not be correct.

 

Marv Levy and Dick Jauron made bad decision after bad decision in the front office during 06 and 07. RW approved this and then further bungled the front office by neglecting to name a GM when it was realized ML would step down.

 

When we look at teams league wide, we see every one of them has someone guiding personnel. Buffalo delegates this function to Guy and Modrak whose record is a question mark, considering that the consensus approach clouds who is really at fault for a given decision.

 

Furthermore, when Bills fans look across the NFL, they see franchises lapping them on the track to success. Since 2001, Carolina has gone from being bad to good to bad to being good again. Almost the same can be said for Atlanta, Baltimore, and Miami.

 

When more Bills fans start looking at how successful franchises are run, they'll see how inept our front office remains.

 

 

It's about the coaching far more than it is about the talent on the field. Levy, Ralph and the FO are responsible for the coaching choices, and deserve criticism for that.

 

The talent level (all around) on this team is superior to when Levy came, and I continue to say, it isn't even close. They are missing a few big-play makers, I will agree. But, the roster as a whole is in much better shape, now. Levy, Ralph and the FO are responsible for that, and deserve the credit.

 

When you, or Dwagg point to how someone the Bills passed on is performing on another team, you fail to mention that in most of those situations, the team was solid and the draft pick was added to a relatively strong base. When Levy came, the team was old and declining, had HUGE holes in the lineup. The older players had big contracts and the team was moving to a cash-to-cap philosophy. Despite that, the team managed to get younger, and more solid, throughout the lineup (with a few exceptions, to be sure)...and maintain their financial integrity. Remember CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Dwagg never deals in context...it is beyond him, I think.

 

You can't even decide who to blame, BV. One day it's all Jauron...he makes the decisions. Another day, I see you have decided to blast Brandon...he makes all the decisions. The truth is, you don't know who to blame...so you blame everyone. I don't know who to blame, so I try to figure out who is likely to make what decisions, and place credit or blame where I think it might belong. As I can never be quite sure, I don't fiercely bash someone who may not deserve the bashing.

 

I am as frustrated as anyone, I just refuse to be blindly pissed, without examining the entire situation. The truth is, if you are a Bills' fan, you should know by now that Ralph isn't going to go the route of some of these other franchises. You either accept it, or you can refuse to believe it (even though it's been made clear year after year). So, all Bills-related analysis has to be through the filter of what the Bills are, realistically, going to do, and are able to do.

 

Buffalo isn't an attractive destination for some FA options. They went after Gonzalez, and couldn't get it done. To their credit, though, they did bring in Mitchel and the offensive line behemoths the previous year. As an aside, I happen to know that Modrack (and Guy) were looking all over for a Center in the offseason, but felt that none of the available Centers were a big improvement over Fowler. They were smart, but low brawn. The Bills want a bigger body there. That is (or at least was several weeks ago) one of the positions they plan to concentrate on this offseason.

 

It is far harder to turn around Buffalo than it is Miami. for many reasons. The Bills aren't going to bring in Parcells and let him run the show...not going to happen. Not Levy's fault, Brandon's fault or Modrak's fault. And, if you want to blame Ralph...fine. But, he's the owner, and it is his show.

 

I'd suggest that some of you need to root for other teams, as you seem to be unable to accept that there are certain things a Bills fan (and GM) has to accept...as they aren't likely to change.

 

As Ralph is 90, maybe he will get antsy, and throw his caution to the wind. But, judging by his history, that is unlikely. So, the Bills need to be solid...certainly more solid, throughout the lineup, than they were when TD left. Then, they need to get lucky. A HC needs to turn to gold, instead of to s#it. Using Miami as an example, how many bad head coaches did they have to go through to find Sparano? And, is it Tony, or Parcells?

 

Then, they have to have some luck with injuries. Now, every team has injuries, but the Bills were decimated last year, and hit pretty hard this year, too. Plus, as I already mentioned, the Bills aren't other teams...they are the Bills. They aren't going to trade away high draft picks the way the Redskins might. That has been true, for the most part, with every Bills GM.

 

Finally (at least for this post) one of their QBs has to pan out. JP had promise...was horrible handled...and is broken now. He may find a way to get fixed somewhere, but it won't be in Buffalo. Edwards looked like a good young prospect, and still may turn out to be the guy we need...but, you have to have doubts after he turned sour midseason.

 

Still, I think that, if this coach, or the next one, can be competent and have "smart balls", this team is 4-5 players short of being a real contender. They already have playoff caliber talent, IMO.

[Dan]

It's about the coaching far more than it is about the talent on the field. Levy, Ralph and the FO are responsible for the coaching choices, and deserve criticism for that.

 

The talent level (all around) on this team is superior to when Levy came, and I continue to say, it isn't even close. They are missing a few big-play makers, I will agree. But, the roster as a whole is in much better shape, now. Levy, Ralph and the FO are responsible for that, and deserve the credit.

 

When you, or Dwagg point to how someone the Bills passed on is performing on another team, you fail to mention that in most of those situations, the team was solid and the draft pick was added to a relatively strong base. When Levy came, the team was old and declining, had HUGE holes in the lineup. The older players had big contracts and the team was moving to a cash-to-cap philosophy. Despite that, the team managed to get younger, and more solid, throughout the lineup (with a few exceptions, to be sure)...and maintain their financial integrity. Remember CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Dwagg never deals in context...it is beyond him, I think.

 

You can't even decide who to blame, BV. One day it's all Jauron...he makes the decisions. Another day, I see you have decided to blast Brandon...he makes all the decisions. The truth is, you don't know who to blame...so you blame everyone. I don't know who to blame, so I try to figure out who is likely to make what decisions, and place credit or blame where I think it might belong. As I can never be quite sure, I don't fiercely bash someone who may not deserve the bashing.

 

I am as frustrated as anyone, I just refuse to be blindly pissed, without examining the entire situation. The truth is, if you are a Bills' fan, you should know by now that Ralph isn't going to go the route of some of these other franchises. You either accept it, or you can refuse to believe it (even though it's been made clear year after year). So, all Bills-related analysis has to be through the filter of what the Bills are, realistically, going to do, and are able to do.

 

Buffalo isn't an attractive destination for some FA options. They went after Gonzalez, and couldn't get it done. To their credit, though, they did bring in Mitchel and the offensive line behemoths the previous year. As an aside, I happen to know that Modrack (and Guy) were looking all over for a Center in the offseason, but felt that none of the available Centers were a big improvement over Fowler. They were smart, but low brawn. The Bills want a bigger body there. That is (or at least was several weeks ago) one of the positions they plan to concentrate on this offseason.

 

It is far harder to turn around Buffalo than it is Miami. for many reasons. The Bills aren't going to bring in Parcells and let him run the show...not going to happen. Not Levy's fault, Brandon's fault or Modrak's fault. And, if you want to blame Ralph...fine. But, he's the owner, and it is his show.

 

I'd suggest that some of you need to root for other teams, as you seem to be unable to accept that there are certain things a Bills fan (and GM) has to accept...as they aren't likely to change.

 

As Ralph is 90, maybe he will get antsy, and throw his caution to the wind. But, judging by his history, that is unlikely. So, the Bills need to be solid...certainly more solid, throughout the lineup, than they were when TD left. Then, they need to get lucky. A HC needs to turn to gold, instead of to s#it. Using Miami as an example, how many bad head coaches did they have to go through to find Sparano? And, is it Tony, or Parcells?

 

Then, they have to have some luck with injuries. Now, every team has injuries, but the Bills were decimated last year, and hit pretty hard this year, too. Plus, as I already mentioned, the Bills aren't other teams...they are the Bills. They aren't going to trade away high draft picks the way the Redskins might. That has been true, for the most part, with every Bills GM.

 

Finally (at least for this post) one of their QBs has to pan out. JP had promise...was horrible handled...and is broken now. He may find a way to get fixed somewhere, but it won't be in Buffalo. Edwards looked like a good young prospect, and still may turn out to be the guy we need...but, you have to have doubts after he turned sour midseason.

 

Still, I think that, if this coach, or the next one, can be competent and have "smart balls", this team is 4-5 players short of being a real contender. They already have playoff caliber talent, IMO.

Pyrite?

[The Dean]

Pyrite?

 

 

 

[Dan]

Sorry, couldn't resist. I do agree with most of your most. However, I'd suggest we're better than 4-5 players away. I'd say 2 maybe 3. We need to upgrade Ellison and we need a QB. That's 2 for certain. Trent may still be the guy, but one of the great tragedies of this season has been that we still just don't know.

 

Certainly it can be argued that we need all sorts of other upgrades. But, I'll counter much of that sentiment with.... how much better would we look this season if the offensive coaching and head coaching had resembled anything competent? Today's game was a perfect example. We had the talent on the field to win, but we blew it. The Jets didn't beat us, we beat ourselves. And I think you could say that for about 2-3 other games this season.

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

This guy is a keeper IMHO